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      09-13-2006, 03:15 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
Actually, that's one of the most interesting things about this forum.

There aren't many other situations where you get such an insight into the way people think and act in different countries.

For instance the differences in engine options and vehicle prices in the US and UK mean that very different people drive 330i's there than here.
I agree. Off-topic polticial discussions on a site like e90post are better than on-topic political discussion on boards such as freerepublic.com and democraticunderground.com. On those sites it's mostly people with the same ideology agreeing on topics (or they simply debate degrees of conservatism/liberalism). Here at least people at polar ends of the spectrum can debate.

BTW, you should check out http://www.americaoutloud.org. We need more people there to continue these discussions, and there are already a bunch of e90posters there. Besides, there's a theory afoot that you and I are related somehow, and family needs to stick together! =P
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      09-13-2006, 03:17 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
I agree. Off-topic polticial discussions on a site like e90post are better than on-topic political discussion on boards such as freerepublic.com and democraticunderground.com. On those sites it's mostly people with the same ideology agreeing on topics (or they simply debate degrees of conservatism/liberalism). Here at least people at polar ends of the spectrum can debate.

BTW, you should check out http://www.americaoutloud.org. We need more people there to continue these discussions, and there are already a bunch of e90posters there. Besides, there's a theory afoot that you and I are related somehow, and family needs to stick together! =P
It's more than a theory
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      09-13-2006, 05:28 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
I agree. Off-topic polticial discussions on a site like e90post are better than on-topic political discussion on boards such as freerepublic.com and democraticunderground.com. On those sites it's mostly people with the same ideology agreeing on topics (or they simply debate degrees of conservatism/liberalism). Here at least people at polar ends of the spectrum can debate.

BTW, you should check out http://www.americaoutloud.org. We need more people there to continue these discussions, and there are already a bunch of e90posters there. Besides, there's a theory afoot that you and I are related somehow, and family needs to stick together! =P
I checked it out ....

Well - I don't know if I should be pissed or proud to be insulted on an american forum I have never visited I could be being insulted all around the world at the moment - on balance I think I'm proud.

Is everyone with moderate views that isn't a neo-conservative related then?

I've got 2 kids, but I'm pretty confident that neither of them can type yet - and they aren't called Nostrum either. It shouldn't be shocking that other people think like me.. by their very nature people with moderate views are in the majority.

The funniest thing is that CMD is still going on about my 'circular arguments' - the main problem being though that he either didn't read my posts - or completely failed to understand them. He also doesn't seem to realise that is was almost certainly posting the PM that got him the ban.

As I said to him at the time the mexican tourism joke contained negative stereotypes of mexican people as 'banditos' and negative stereotypes are the foundation of racism. This isn't hard - it's basic sociology.

I can't see myself posting over there though. It's hard enough trying to deal with this stuff on one forum.
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      09-13-2006, 05:31 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
It's more than a theory
Have you got evidence then ?

Seems to me the only thing I have in common with nostrum is a distrust of politicians, a belief that the status quo is not necessarily right simply because "it has always been this way"... oh and the fact that we have both disagreed with you !
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      09-13-2006, 06:17 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBob
I guess you just don't want to accept the fact the the Jews have been in the middle east for at least 3500 years. Fine. But they are there and you need to accept the fact that they aren't leaving. It's sad that you have such a poor understanding of world history. Is your access to information restricted in Oman?
looks like ur the one who needs to get somethings straighten up, Jews, not Israelies were in the middle east 3500 years ago, there wasnt a country called Israel before...

there are many arab countries that has more than one religion upon it, but they dont want to have thier own country...

then y dont the christians in Lebanon, Egypt and other arab countries have countries of thier own??

and i didnt say i dont accept the fact that they r there and they r not leaving (quote the reply where i say so)...
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      09-13-2006, 06:31 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
Have you got evidence then ?

Seems to me the only thing I have in common with nostrum is a distrust of politicians, a belief that the status quo is not necessarily right simply because "it has always been this way"... oh and the fact that we have both disagreed with you !
Chill, we are trying to have some fun with you. I guess that was offensive too??
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      09-14-2006, 02:01 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Chill, we are trying to have some fun with you. I guess that was offensive too??
No I was just having some fun back. I think this forum should have sarcasm alert button
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      09-16-2006, 02:58 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBob
Here's a map of the area as it was 2800 years ago.
source??
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      09-16-2006, 05:05 PM   #53
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I struggle with all of this.
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      09-17-2006, 04:30 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBob
That particular map came from the link below. If you don't like that source, there are many others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah
It's the 'promised land' referred to in the old testament.

The middle east conflict goes beyond true ownership of land. There is not a country on earth that has not aquired it's land through war and subjugation.

Israel is a fact - it's not going to change and the neighbouring muslim states need to engage with it - and make peace.

Israel has to do likewise. Otherwise people will continue to die pointlessly.
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      09-17-2006, 06:57 PM   #55
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Isn't the goal of the Islamic facists to create a Caliphate?
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      09-18-2006, 04:29 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Isn't the goal of the Islamic facists to create a Caliphate?
Bit of history for you:

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ISLAM/CALIPH.HTM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate

I am not really sure why you asked the question here ... I am sure that there are many muslims who would like to see a new muslim empire as the dominant world power.

The idea of Islamic Facists is an interesting one. Beyond it's power as a political soundbite do you think it has any real meaning?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism

I find it interesting that this phrase has recently been adopted by Bush. Interesting and smart on his part, because of the way it links the Islamic Extremists to far right organisations - like the Nazi party - despite the fact that the two are quite dissimilar.

In August 2006 in the aftermath of the arrest in Britain of people suspected of plotting to bomb planes travelling to the US, George Bush described the fight against terrorists as a battle against "Islamic fascists... will use any means to destroy those of us who love freedom". The Council on American-Islamic Relations wrote to him to complain, saying that the use of the term "feeds the perception that the war on terror is actually a war on Islam".

Does Islamic Facism include Islamic Fundamentalism and in doing so does it have a wider meaning than Islamic Extremists.

Is it possible to be a fundamentalist - but not an extremist? Or did that cease to be legitimate after 911?

I would make the point that I am arguing about language and it's power here. My personal views are that any religious fundamentalism is an extremely bad thing, because it lacks tolerance and it impedes freedom.
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      09-18-2006, 09:51 AM   #57
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if they look after there countre u call them terrorist what the hille israil wants from lebanon ,israil is terrorist and they make truble every where man be honest with ur self first then u can understand whats going on
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      09-18-2006, 11:00 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBob
BMW320i doesn't understand that the kingdom of Israel existed prior to the current state of Israel. This is historical fact. I'm not suggesting that this information means anything other than the fact that the Jews ruled what is now known as Palestine before being crushed by the Romans. It was the Romans who named this area Palestine as a further insult to the Jews.
Following World War II, the British announced their intention to withdraw from the British mandate of Palestine. The United Nations General Assembly proposed the partition of Palestine into two states, an Arab state and a Jewish state, with Jerusalem to be under United Nations administration. Most Jews in Palestine accepted the proposal, while most of the Arabs in Palestine rejected it.

Violence between Arab and Jewish communities erupted almost immediately. Toward the end of the British mandate, the Jews planned to declare a separate state, a development the Arabs were determined to prevent. On May 14, 1948, the last British forces withdrew from Palestine, and the Jews, led by David Ben-Gurion, declared the creation of the State of Israel, in accordance with the 1947 UN Partition Plan.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...e_of_Palestine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...20th_centuries

Most countries boundaries have been shaped by war and few have an absolute moral claim on their land.

Israel and Palestines history is more controversial than most.

What if the UN decided to give the USA back to the Native Americans? Or the UK back to the Celts? Or Northen Ireland back to the Irish? Or Australia back to the aboriginals? etc.... etc.... etc....

Soviet occupation of East Germany didn't work out so well did it?

Regardless or your views on this, the state of Israel is not going anywhere. Israel and it's neighbours need to stop mourning the past, get to grips with this fact and start making peace.
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      09-18-2006, 11:37 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBob
I don't see how this relates to my post. I don't have a dog in this fight and I'm supporting neither the Jews nor Arabs claim to the land in dispute.
It doesn't directly relate to your post. It's just germane to the discussion.

I can understand why many palestinians have an issue with the simple fact of Israel's existance. However, there is no reversing a train of events put in motion 100 years ago.

Like you I don't support either sides claim to the land.

Other than to say that Israel has it and possession is 9/10th's of the law.

They are not going to give it up - so peace is the only way in the long term and the current conflict is ultimately pointless.
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      09-18-2006, 11:59 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
They are not going to give it up - so peace is the only way in the long term and the current conflict is ultimately pointless.
Peace will only be obtained by destroying the Palestinian terrorists! Israel keeps giving in to them and they continue to want more and more. Do you actually think the Palestinians want peace or do they just want Israel completely destroyed and removed from the area?
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      09-19-2006, 06:07 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Peace will only be obtained by destroying the Palestinian terrorists!
That's the attitutude of a lot of Israelis have and it just will not work.

The palestinian people have a legitimate grievance against Israel. Because of the terrorism Israel has a legitimate grievance against Palestine.

Israel cannot destroy the terrorists without destroying palestine. Their aggression actually aids the terrorists.

I am absolutely certain that many many palestinians want peace. Unfortunately there is a lot of hate on both sides.

Their are a lot of parallels between the Irish situation and the middle east. Peace has been brokered in Ireland and the same COULD happen in Israel - if there was a will.
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      09-19-2006, 06:09 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBob
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only workable solution is to castrate all newborn males on both side of this conflict for the next 100 years or so.
I think both sides need their heads knocking together.
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      09-20-2006, 11:25 AM   #63
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Yet another reason the UN is irrelevant. Murderous communist dictator Hugo Chavez called President Bush the devil in a speech he just gave to the UN in New York. On a similar note, the anti Semite terrorist who wants Israel "wiped off the face of the map", President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran also got to speak yesterday in front of the UN where he bashed the US and made references to the coming of the end of the world. what kind of respectable organization would even recognize these mad men?
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      09-20-2006, 11:56 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Yet another reason the UN is irrelevant. Murderous communist dictator Hugo Chavez called President Bush the devil in a speech he just gave to the UN in New York. On a similar note, the anti Semite terrorist who wants Israel "wiped off the face of the map", President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran also got to speak yesterday in front of the UN where he bashed the US and made references to the coming of the end of the world. what kind of respectable organization would even recognize these mad men?
It's a difficult question though isn't it ? Is it better to include rogue states in the international political community or to exclude them altogether ?
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      09-20-2006, 12:37 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
It's a difficult question though isn't it ? Is it better to include rogue states in the international political community or to exclude them altogether ?
It is never good to give people like that the attention they want and need!
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      09-20-2006, 01:54 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
It is never good to give people like that the attention they want and need!
Fair comment - but maybe they would get MORE attention if they were ostracised from world politics - in effect they get martyr status as they can point to the UN and say - these guys are gagging me and not letting me speak.

What you see said and done at the UN is only half the story - a lot is done behind closed doors as with the G8 and Nato.

That said - I'd have a hard time being in the same room as some of these people from a purely moral perspective.
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