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      09-11-2006, 01:36 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
What is sad is knowing that the UN committed the acts I mentioned, and yet still supporting them. I agree with BadBob, if you support those corrupt band of criminals invite them to your country. Our real friends are in NATO.

Quit it already with your "offensive" crying. Anything you don't agree with, you cry and say it is offensive hoping to get us kick off of the forum. That my friend is immature!
No-ones crying - your post was aggressive and offensive. I don't appreciate that and I see little point in explaining my views on the UN to someone with an attitude as dismissive as yours.

You clearly have a problem with anyone who does not have the same ultra right wing political viewpoint as you and for some reason you consider it appropriate to attack people personally if they disagree with you in any way.

That is immature - I'm not.
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      09-11-2006, 01:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
Try reading it again and if you can't see why - get medical help.

Asking people if they support child abuse, because they see some value in the UN is pretty stupid and offensive in my book.

If that is the level of debate why should I waste time explaining my views on the UN? It hardly seems as if you would be interested.

Suffice to say I would rather live in a world with a UN than without it - and I would rather my country be in the UN then out.
Wow, "get medical help"? That's a bit offensive if I do say myself. I don't know you, but you seem to be offended quite easily. Oh well, we're on total opposite sides with regard to how useful the United Nations is anyway. You seem to believe it has some redemable value for this planet, where it I view it as a useless farce. Maybe you Brits should invite them over to your place. Over here across the pond from you most red-blooded American's want the U.N. the hell out of here.

As for me personally, I would have far preferred that one of the planes on September 11, 2001 would have flown into the U.N. building rather than the Twin Towers.

What do you think would have been worse in those two scenarios?
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      09-11-2006, 01:39 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW320i
correct me if im wrong, but where all the Israelies came from?? i dont know, but i know that there wasnt a country called Israel before, they wanted Palestine, and they got it, unfortunatly...
Well regardless of whether you believe it to be right or wrong Israel is there and it's not going anywhere.

The only way forward is to put the past behind and try to make peace. Anything else is just going to cause unnecessary death and suffering.
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      09-11-2006, 01:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Casuist
I don't know you, but you seem to be offended quite easily.
No you don't know me - if you did you would know that I am NOT easily offended.
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      09-11-2006, 01:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
No-ones crying - your post was aggressive and offensive. I don't appreciate that and I see little point in explaining my views on the UN to someone with an attitude as dismissive as yours.

You clearly have a problem with anyone who does not have the same ultra right wing political viewpoint as you and for some reason you consider it appropriate to attack people personally if they disagree with you in any way.

That is immature - I'm not.
This was my post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
So you are a supporter of Cuba, Sudan, China, and Zimbabwe's human rights policies? Are you a supporter of the sexual abuse of children in the Congo? Did you benefit somehow from the Oil for Food Program in Iraq? What specifically is so good about the UN? What has the UN done for you?
All were questions based on your staunch support of the UN, none were personal attacks. It seems your goal is to have people who don't agree with you be banished from the site for being "offensive". In all of the attacks I've put up with every other post I've never once been offended.
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      09-11-2006, 01:50 PM   #28
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Some of you chaps in the states may be interested to see what David Cameron - leader of our right wing conservative opposition has to say about our respective foreign policies earlier today.

The full text of the speech is here:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/speec...ticle_continue

Cameron is courting the moderate 'swing' voters in the UK, who are uncomfortable with Blairs uncompromising support for Bush.
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      09-11-2006, 01:55 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
All were questions based on your staunch support of the UN, none were personal attacks. It seems your goal is to have people who don't agree with you be banished from the site for being "offensive". In all of the attacks I've put up with every other post I've never once been offended.
Question - what staunch support of the UN are you talking about?

Question - on what basis do you say my goal is to have people who don't agree with me 'banished from the site'

Both statements are complete nonsense.

Your statement about the UN is also nonsense. The UN is NOT responsible for foreign policy in china or zimbabwe. The leaders of those countries are.

You could say a lot about the effectiveness of the UN - since it is pretty ineffective. But as I have said, I would rather have it in the world than not.

I don't much care if you want it out of the USA. For the time being your govt doesn't. Maybe that will change.
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      09-11-2006, 02:34 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
Question - what staunch support of the UN are you talking about?

Question - on what basis do you say my goal is to have people who don't agree with me 'banished from the site'

Both statements are complete nonsense.
Your statement about the UN is also nonsense. The UN is NOT responsible for foreign policy in china or zimbabwe. The leaders of those countries are.
1. You seem to be defending them pretty good so I consider that staunch support. I don't want to mischaracterize your support so clarify.

2. CMD was banished from the site for having what you considered to be offensive posts. I am not saying you had anything to do with his banishment but to continue to cry that people offend you when they are simply opposing your views could lead to our banishment.

3. Those nations I mention are on the UN Commission on Human Rights not just member states.
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      09-11-2006, 02:47 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
1. You seem to be defending them pretty good so I consider that staunch support. I don't want to mischaracterize your support so clarify.
I'm happy to clarify, so long as you can keep it civil.

I believe in the principles of both the United Nations and NATO. I've been to the UN building in Geneva and personally found it pretty uplifting.

However, I don't think the UN is effective, because it is overly beaurocratic.

There is also the problem that, to have international credibility it must be inclusive, but then that some of the nations that are included are oppressive regimes - e.g. Zimbabwe. For information you should try to look at the UK's unilateral approach to Zimbabwe and the bitter dislike that they have for our BBC.

Notwithstanding it's limitations and inadequacies, I think the world is better off having a UN than not having one.

That's the sum of my support - I wouldn't call it 'staunch'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
2. CMD was banished from the site for having what you considered to be offensive posts. I am not saying you had anything to do with his banishment but to continue to cry that people offend you when they are simply opposing your views could lead to our banishment.
I don't think for a moment that CMD was banned because I was offended by his posts and I certainly didn't have anything to do with it. I think he was banned because he reacted badly to a warning from the site admin about his posts and tried to post the PM'd warning he had received from admin. If you have a problem with this - take it up with them - it's NOTHING to do with me.
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      09-11-2006, 02:54 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
I don't think for a moment that CMD was banned because I was offended by his posts and I certainly didn't have anything to do with it. I think he was banned because he reacted badly to a warning from the site admin about his posts and tried to post the PM'd warning he had received from admin. If you have a problem with this - take it up with them - it's NOTHING to do with me.
Correct but he was warned by the site's staff for having offensive posts.
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      09-11-2006, 03:00 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Correct but he was warned by the site's staff for having offensive posts.
I don't know about that - I never saw the PM.

I think the point that you are missing is that his posts were actually offensive.

It wasn't just that I found them offensive and told him so ... other people thought they were offensive as well. Maybe the admin thought so independantly or maybe someone else complained - all I know is that is was nothing to do with me.

I believe in free speach - post what you want - don't expect me to ignore religeous hatred or racism though - and don't expect the admin to ignore it either - read the sticky at the top of this section.
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      09-11-2006, 07:46 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
I don't know about that - I never saw the PM.

I think the point that you are missing is that his posts were actually offensive.

It wasn't just that I found them offensive and told him so ... other people thought they were offensive as well. Maybe the admin thought so independantly or maybe someone else complained - all I know is that is was nothing to do with me.

I believe in free speach - post what you want - don't expect me to ignore religeous hatred or racism though - and don't expect the admin to ignore it either - read the sticky at the top of this section.
I know you had nothing to do with it, but it seems if someone sneezes you are offended. Instead of just crying that someone's posts are offensive to you, come up with intelligent responses. It's crazy that those of us with conservative viewpoints are considered offensive, but your viewpoints are ok.
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      09-11-2006, 09:40 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
Some of you chaps in the states may be interested to see what David Cameron - leader of our right wing conservative opposition has to say about our respective foreign policies earlier today.

The full text of the speech is here:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/speec...ticle_continue

Cameron is courting the moderate 'swing' voters in the UK, who are uncomfortable with Blairs uncompromising support for Bush.
I haven't read the speech by Mr. Cameron yet, but I believe that it is correct for the U.S. and G.B. to march to the same drummer.

I can tell you I voted for President Bush and I thank my God that he was in charge when those planes flew into their targets on 9/11. If we had had a liberal leader we would have really been screwed. Really screwed.
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      09-12-2006, 12:35 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBob
There weren't any Muslims in the middle east or anywhere else for that matter until the rise of Islam less than 1400 years ago. The kingdom of Israel and Judah was established nearly 3000 years ago and the Israeli people have been living in the currently disputed area of the middle east since the Exodus from Eygpt which occured about 3500 years ago. Further discussion requires a knowledge of Roman history. The actions of the Roman Emperor Hadrian in particular.
yah, but the Muslims didnt come from other places 2 stay in the middle east, they were born middle-easterns, n stayd there...

and dont talk about the kingdom of Israel and Judah, where there a country called Israel about 200 years ago?? and r the Israelies people born in the middle east?? no. period

im accepting the fact that we can just ask Israelies 2 leave thier country, i just hate the fact that it has the nuclear power here, this doesnt make us safe...
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      09-12-2006, 04:05 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
I know you had nothing to do with it, but it seems if someone sneezes you are offended. Instead of just crying that someone's posts are offensive to you, come up with intelligent responses. It's crazy that those of us with conservative viewpoints are considered offensive, but your viewpoints are ok.
I firmly believe that every ones should be entitled to hold there own view - that's what democracy is about.

But I think that there have to be some limitations on this in a civilised society, so where someones views are damaging to others, there should be a mechanism of control. That's why in the UK we have laws prohibiting the incitement of racist and religeous hatred.

I think perhaps that you are hung up on the word 'offensive' (perhaps for other reasons because of a different connotation for that word in the US?).

The truth is that bigotry annoys the hell out of me - so if I see it - I will tackle it. The posts that have annoyed me in this way have generally contained negative stereotypes targeted to damage religious or ethnic groups. Personally I do not think such posts should be permitted on this forum and the administrators of the forum seem to agree (reference the sticky on racism).

Offensive may have been a poor choice of word in respect of your UN post. What I was annoyed about was the aggressive accusatory nature of the post, which was in response to a pretty innocuous statement on my part.

I am not going to defend myself against charges of personally benefiting from the oil for food programme, or for that matter the promotion of child abuse in africa, just because I happen to think the UN is a worthwhile (if flawed and ineffectual) endeavour - these things do not equate.

Your direction of these questions at me personally was unnecessary and impolite (downright rude in fact) - that is why I objected.

Regardless of your political views - it is a fact of life that you may offend individuals or a broader spectrum of society. If people are offended by your views, perhaps you should try to examine why that might be - instead of simply attacking the people that you have already offended?

Politically I would actually describe myself as moderate - neither left or right wing. That is because for me each of these philosophies has value in some areas, but is flawed in others.

I also find that the older I get the more complex my world view becomes. I see very little in clear terms of black and white these days and genuinely believe that the more educated and experienced you get, the more you realise that the good guys are not always in the right and that there are at least 2 sides to every story.

I am not a liberal in the sense that you understand the word and I am not 'easily offended'.

Interestingly - there was a BBC run poll broadcast last night on the war on terror.

Government 'losing war on terror'
Press Association
Monday September 11, 2006 10:03 PM


On the fifth anniversary of the devastating September 11 attacks, a majority of people believe the Government is losing the war against terrorism in the UK, according to a poll.

The Gfk NOP poll for the BBC's 10 O'Clock News found 53% believed the Government was losing the so-called war on terror at home and only 24% believed it was being won.

It also found that a substantial minority of people wanted to see negotiations start with al Qaida and a majority want British troops to leave Afghanistan.

Exactly half of those quizzed wanted to see British troops leave Iraq immediately and 52% want to see them withdraw from Afghanistan now.

Some 34% think they should stay in Iraq and 31% want to see troops remain in Afghanistan.

Nearly a third (32%) of those questioned wanted to see negotiations with al Qaida start, while a majority (52%) believe governments should not speak to them.

More than half (55%) believe the Government has aligned itself too closely with US foreign policy, compared with the 11% who think not closely enough and 19% who think the relationship is about right.

A majority (56%) also thought the West was losing the fight against international terrorism abroad and only 20% believed they were winning.

According to the poll, 40% of people feel less safe now since September 11 2001, 44% feel about the same and 11% feel safer.


For the record my response would have been that we are losing the 'war on terror', mainly because I have never believed it to be a true 'war' or something that could be won.

However, I do not think we should negotiate with al qaeda, because they don't want to negotiate and I do not think we should exit Afghanistan or Iraq, because we have a duty to fix up the mess we have made there first.

Finally I do think that Britain needs to put some distance between it's own and the USA's foreign policy, because I do not agree with the USA's unequivocal support for Israel.
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      09-12-2006, 04:20 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Casuist
I haven't read the speech by Mr. Cameron yet, but I believe that it is correct for the U.S. and G.B. to march to the same drummer.

I can tell you I voted for President Bush and I thank my God that he was in charge when those planes flew into their targets on 9/11. If we had had a liberal leader we would have really been screwed. Really screwed.
It's a long speech and to save you the time I've pulled out some of the parts which I found interesting.

For the record I agree that the UK and USA should be alligned - we are similar countries. However, I am not happy to support Bush without condition or question.

I have never agreed with this tactic used by Bush immediately after 911:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You're_either_with_us,_or_against_us

Anyway ... this is some of what David Cameron said - remember he is the leader of the conservative opposition:

On Foreign Policy

I also believe that we should try to debate foreign policy in a mature and responsible way.

It is not responsible to try and polarise debate through simplistic exercises in political positioning.

If you question the approach of the US administration, you're "anti-American".

If you support what the United States is doing, you're "America's poodle".

If you care about civil liberties, you're "soft on terror". If you back an extension of our security laws, you're "building a police state".

These are not mature contributions to debate.


On Islamic Terrorism

And the deformed vision of Islam which inspires some of them is part of a wider picture that includes the perception by many Muslims that Islam is under attack, the suppression of political freedom and economic opportunity by ruthless dictatorships, the relative lack of progress in some Muslim societies, and the belief that the west deliberately fails to resolve issues of crucial concern to Muslims, like Palestine.

The clear implication of this is that we cannot just rely on conventional counter-terrorism.

We need a broader and highly co-ordinated strategy...identifying and thwarting terrorist plots, separating the terrorists from their recruiting base, and winning the trust of the majority Muslim community, addressing the geopolitical issues that constitute direct and indirect security threats.


On our Special Relationship:

Britain does not need to establish her identity by recklessly poking the United States in the eye, as some like to do.

But we will serve neither our own, nor America's, nor the world's interests if we are seen as America's unconditional associate in every endeavour.

Our duty is to our own citizens, and to our own conception of what is right for the world.

We should be solid but not slavish in our friendship with America.


Liberal Conservatism

But I believe that in the last five years we have suffered from the absence of two crucial qualities which should always condition foreign policy-making.

Humility, and patience.

These are not warlike words.

They are not so glamorous and exciting as the easy sound-bites we have grown used to in recent years.

But these sound-bites had the failing of all foreign policy designed to fit into a headline.

They were unrealistic and simplistic.

They represented a view which sees only light and darkness in the world - and which believes that one can be turned to the other as quickly as flicking a switch.

I do not see things that way. I am a liberal conservative, rather than a neo-conservative.

Liberal - because I support the aim of spreading freedom and democracy, and support humanitarian intervention.

Conservative - because I recognise the complexities of human nature, and am sceptical of grand schemes to remake the world.

A liberal conservative approach to foreign policy today is based on five propositions.

First, that we should understand fully the threat we face.

Second, that democracy cannot quickly be imposed from outside.

Third, that our strategy needs to go far beyond military action.

Fourth, that we need a new multilateralism to tackle the new global challenges we face.

And fifth, that we must strive to act with moral authority.


Closing Statements

I have said I am a liberal conservative.

Let us remember the words of the perhaps the greatest Liberal prime minister, and the great Victorian advocate of moral interventionism abroad.

WE Gladstone's famous Midlothian campaign was founded on the proposition that, and I quote, "the foreign policy of England should always be inspired by a love of freedom".

But he also warned against imperial hubris and international arrogance.

As he said, "even when you do a good thing, you may do it in so bad a way that you entirely spoil the beneficial effect".

In short, we must be wise as well as good.
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      09-12-2006, 10:40 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
But I think that there have to be some limitations on this in a civilised society, so where someones views are damaging to others, there should be a mechanism of control. That's why in the UK we have laws prohibiting the incitement of racist and religeous hatred.
Thank God we have a little thing called freedom of speech here in the US. It seems that those types of laws are never enforced if you insult Christians or Jews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
For the record my response would have been that we are losing the 'war on terror', mainly because I have never believed it to be a true 'war' or something that could be won.
I think the Brits are loosing the war on terror for the simple reason their previous liberal immigration policies allowed England to be infiltrated with terrorists. I think you have a bigger problem with terrorists living amongst you than we do here. Frankly our citizens here would not tolerate a bunch of Muslims cheering over 9-11 attacks in our streets. Yea it might be legal to do here, but it doesn't mean your not going to get your ass beat for doing so.

I would like to add that there has been much improvement since your subway attacks, and your laws allow the police in your country to do their job better without all of the restrictions we have here. England is sure on the right track now!
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      09-12-2006, 12:06 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Thank God we have a little thing called freedom of speech here in the US. It seems that those types of laws are never enforced if you insult Christians or Jews.
I can assure you the law would apply equally in respect of all religions.

We also have (and will fight to protect) freedom of speech. But freedom of speech has never been freedom to encourage hatred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
I think the Brits are loosing the war on terror for the simple reason their previous liberal immigration policies allowed England to be infiltrated with terrorists. I think you have a bigger problem with terrorists living amongst you than we do here. Frankly our citizens here would not tolerate a bunch of Muslims cheering over 9-11 attacks in our streets. Yea it might be legal to do here, but it doesn't mean your not going to get your ass beat for doing so.

I would like to add that there has been much improvement since your subway attacks, and your laws allow the police in your country to do their job better without all of the restrictions we have here. England is sure on the right track now!
No public celebration of terrorism would be tolerated by anyone in the UK. It would quite likely also be illegal (glorification of terrorism) under our new anti-terror laws.

Having said that - anyone doing this would be likely to get some serious vigilante action against them - the police would be the least of their worries.
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      09-12-2006, 12:18 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by needforspeed
No public celebration of terrorism would be tolerated by anyone in the UK. It would quite likely also be illegal (glorification of terrorism) under our new anti-terror laws.

Having said that - anyone doing this would be likely to get some serious vigilante action against them - the police would be the least of their worries.
That is good to know, but I thought there has been many large demonstrations in and around London to that effect.
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      09-13-2006, 03:48 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
That is good to know, but I thought there has been many large demonstrations in and around London to that effect.
Absolutely not. There have been no significant or organised demonstrations in the Uk in support of terrorism and or celebrating 911.

There was a very large well organised demonstration in London in 2003 against the war in Iraq:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Februar...protest#London

The closest I have seen to anyone glorifying terrorism was a muslim student (and also a drug dealing idiot) who turned up to a protest against the dutch cartoons dressed as a suicide bomber.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4686410.stm

Happily he was only out on license - so he was promptly sent back to jail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4687996.stm
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      09-13-2006, 11:11 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
Absolutely not. There have been no significant or organised demonstrations in the Uk in support of terrorism and or celebrating 911.

There was a very large well organised demonstration in London in 2003 against the war in Iraq:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Februar...protest#London

The closest I have seen to anyone glorifying terrorism was a muslim student (and also a drug dealing idiot) who turned up to a protest against the dutch cartoons dressed as a suicide bomber.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4686410.stm

Happily he was only out on license - so he was promptly sent back to jail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4687996.stm
See some of our impressions about jolly old England are as wrong as some of yours about the US.
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      09-13-2006, 11:19 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
See some of our impressions about jolly old England are as wrong as some of yours about the US.
Actually, that's one of the most interesting things about this forum.

There aren't many other situations where you get such an insight into the way people think and act in different countries.

For instance the differences in engine options and vehicle prices in the US and UK mean that very different people drive 330i's there than here.
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