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      05-28-2007, 09:03 AM   #155
Max_!
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> It still wont drain the animal of blood though....

True. It also makes a mush of the brain, which isn't optimal.

I prefer electro stunning, but I don't mind how it's slaughtered as long as it's done in relatively hygienic circumstances.
I have no objections to halal meat, as long as it's slaughtered in a registered abattoir.

(But I guess it would be hard to find halal pork ;-)

> Allah so in other words you cannot as you so rightly said, say that 3 times in one second. Therefore, the animal would be haram.

Apparently not. If the machine is placed so that the chickens face Mekka when they go through the chain cutter, the resulting meat is certified Halal by the Shar'iah Board of America and the Halal Food Authority and HMC in the UK.

The Halal chickenburgers in McDonalds are made from chicken meat that was slaughtered in one of those high-speed machines. Manually slaughtered chickens would be too expensive.

But if Islamic authorities say it is certified Halal, then it is Halal enough right?

> As a side note, do you not respect or find it interesting how deeply the Quran speaks.

Of course I do.

> I mean it covers really everything,

It can be interpreted to cover really everything. I'm sure it speaks of wether you should use electricity for a nuclear or conventional power plant if you look hard enough.

But that does not mean it was meant to.

> but do you not appreciate the way of thinking it has?

Yes, I do. I'm sure it is and has been a valuable guide to millions of people.

But it is not proof of Allah.

Proof of Allah would be, for example, if there was a prophet for each language and they all recited the exact same message in their native language.
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      05-28-2007, 09:06 AM   #156
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Max, you said that there was drawings of fetuses that predate the Quran's description. I did look into it and it seems most people thought Da Vinci produced the earliest scripture about this. But it seems now that other people have even created sculptures 2000 years before this. My question to you is this:

Could you tell me if anyone has produced any scriptures or sculptures before the Holy Prophet which show that a 24 day old embryo resembles a leech? and then go on to say/show that after 28 days the embro would appear like a "chewed lump" with marks that resemble teeth marks, and then go on to say bones were then formed with flesh wrapped around it? and then goes on to say after 8 weeks the embryo turns into a fetus? and then goes on to say that the fetus gains hearing, sight, feeling and understanding?

This is all mentioned in the Quran, there is nothing vague about it. I really dont think the are any scriptures or sculptures that give that much detail before the Quran. And again how could the Holy Prophet know this? after 8 weeks fair enough if there is a miscarriage then anyone could see that babies are only fetuses after 8 weeks. But please do explain to me how the Holy Prophet detailed the description of the leech, and then chewed lump with teeth marks etc etc. all the way down to the development of hearing, sight, feeling and understanding.

Please explain this to me....
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      05-28-2007, 09:23 AM   #157
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Apparently not. If the machine is placed so that the chickens face Mekka when they go through the chain cutter, the resulting meat is certified Halal by the Shar'iah Board of America and the Halal Food Authority and HMC in the UK.

Well, perhaps the scholars agree now that as long as the chickens face Makkah then it would be considered as slaughtered in a halal way. I see logic in this. The reason being if the animals face Makkah (which is Allahs house we believe - not that Allah lives there, but directly above is Allah's throne in Heaven, it is also the central point of the earth) then it would mean it is not a senseless act of violence and there is acknowledgement that Allah gave us the provision of food. I'm not sure though. I would like to research more into this though, because if it says in the Quran that it has to be done manually then it must be done manually. I will definately read into this...

It can be interpreted to cover really everything. I'm sure it speaks of wether you should use electricity for a nuclear or conventional power plant if you look hard enough.

Well, in the Quran it says "Let your hand not be to your own destruction", so obviously air pollution etc. contributes to negative effects on the atmosphere...

Proof of Allah would be, for example, if there was a prophet for each language and they all recited the exact same message in their native language.

I swear to you. I read this in the Quran yesterday when I opened it at a random page. The prophets of Islam went to many people. The people of Ad, The people of Pompeii, the people of Egypt etc, and I swear in the Quran it tells you the exact words the prophets said to the people but they obviouslly didnt listen and were punished. I will find this for you sometime later today and I will sit and type it out. The thing is, the prophets used the same words to all of the people. To the effect of "I want no reward from you, my reward is only with the lord of the worlds". I will post this later...
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      05-28-2007, 09:40 AM   #158
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> And again how could the Holy Prophet know this?

It's obvious that Muhammed was a bright, smart, charismatic man. I see no reason why he could not have gained this knowledge without divine intervention.

It neither proves nor disproves anything.

What I'm wondering now is: the Quran isn't that thick, if you take out all verses talking about scientific matters and proof of god, how many remain that say how you should live your life as a good muslim and which rituals you should adhere to at what time? What punishments should follow what crimes? How you should raise your children?

If the Quran is to be the guide to living, does it mention plastic surgery? If you do not like your nose, can you have it altered? If the Quran does not mention plastic surgery, does that make it halal or haram or neither?
Does it mention tanning beds?
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      05-28-2007, 10:05 AM   #159
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> and I swear in the Quran it tells you the exact words the prophets said to the people but they obviouslly didnt listen and were punished

How can that be? Would not Allah make it so that his word would prevail in other languages/parts of the world just like he did with Muhammed?

Was a prophet sent to the Americas?
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      05-28-2007, 10:06 AM   #160
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It's obvious that Muhammed was a bright, smart, charismatic man. I see no reason why he could not have gained this knowledge without divine intervention.

You have yet to answer my question. I want to know who gave this information to the world BEFORE the Holy Prophet. We both know that the Quran is not being vague in this example. Sure some people could have some sculptures of fetuses but like you said miscarriages didnt just happen in the last 50 years did they? So tell me how 1400 years ago a man could know all of that? It is very specific about the embryo AND fetus as being different and describes the change in appearance and the gain of human qualities such as hearing, sight, feeling understanding. Please tell me where the Holy Prophet got this information from without "divine intervention"

What I'm wondering now is: the Quran isn't that thick, if you take out all verses talking about scientific matters and proof of god, how many remain that say how you should live your life as a good muslim and which rituals you should adhere to at what time? What punishments should follow what crimes? How you should raise your children?

Oh yeah, this is also covered. The Quran teaches us that we must not even raise our voices to our parents and Allah's happiness is seeked through them. It is very WIDELY covered. And yes the Quran also covers the whole 12 months of the year, it explains how to live through the month of Ramadan for example. And the Quran covers family relations very well. Infact it even covers marriage, divorce, everything!

If the Quran is to be the guide to living, does it mention plastic surgery? If you do not like your nose, can you have it altered? If the Quran does not mention plastic surgery, does that make it halal or haram or neither?
Does it mention tanning beds?


No, but the Quran tells us that we must be happy with the way Allah made us etc. We should appreciate what we have as he gives a test to some people and disfigures them. I dont know about you, but as a muslim I appreciate that I have no disabilites at all. I suffer from nothing more than Asthma. But really, the Quran covers everything....

Edit: Please try answer post #144! I really wanna know what you think...
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      05-28-2007, 10:09 AM   #161
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Anyway, I'm away to find the proof you were speaking of. I'll be back later. In the meantime please try answer post #144 and my new one #160
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      05-28-2007, 11:20 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> and I swear in the Quran it tells you the exact words the prophets said to the people but they obviouslly didnt listen and were punished

How can that be? Would not Allah make it so that his word would prevail in other languages/parts of the world just like he did with Muhammed?

Was a prophet sent to the Americas?

Oh, I didnt see this post. Allah says in the Quran:

We never destroyed a city which had not first its warners

America has not been destroyed. BUT Allah has sent many messengers throughout the world since the beginning of time. 25 are recorded by name in the Quran, but there has been countless prophets all over the world. Plus, we muslims spread Islam ourselves. I am infact spreading it myself to you.
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      05-28-2007, 11:25 AM   #163
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Proof of Allah would be, for example, if there was a prophet for each language and they all recited the exact same message in their native language.

Here is your proof from the Quran:

When their brother Noah said to them, "Will ye not fear God?
Of a truth am I your faithful Apostle;
Fear God then and obey me.
I ask of you no reward for this, for my reward is of the Lord of the Worlds alone.

When their brother Houd said to them, "Will ye not fear God?
I am your Apostle, worthy of all credit;
Fear God then and obey me:
I ask for no reward for this; for my reward is of the Lord of the Worlds alone.

When their brother Saleh said to them, "Will ye not fear God?
I am your Apostle worthy of all credit:
Fear God, then, and obey me.
I ask of you no reward for this: my reward is of the Lord of the Worlds alone.

When their brother Lot said to them, "Will ye not fear God?
I am your Apostle worthy of all credit:
Fear God, then, and obey me.
For this I ask you no reward: my reward is of the Lord of the worlds alone.

When Shoaib their brother said to them, "Will ye not fear God?
I truly am your trustworthy Apostle.
Fear God, then, and obey me:
No reward ask I of you for this: my reward is of the Lord of the Worlds alone.


I have attached the entire chapter of the Quran for you to read. I highlighted these parts in the document. There are also footnotes if you wish to read. And if you think the Quran could be lying about sending messengers to nations. Please watch the video I posted called Perished Nations. It uses evidence from the Quran and Archaeological evidence to prove that what the Quran said DID infact happen. Please not there is no way the Holy Prophet could just guess all of this because we only recently discovered the city of Pompeii etc.

Please also reply to post #144 and #160, I will post the chapter called "The Prophets" from the Quran in my next post.
Attached Files
File Type: doc SURA XXVI.doc (53.5 KB, 59 views)
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      05-28-2007, 11:29 AM   #164
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Here is more information about prophets. This is the chapter called "The Prophets"
Attached Files
File Type: doc SURA XXI.doc (56.0 KB, 61 views)
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      05-28-2007, 11:43 AM   #165
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> You have yet to answer my question. I want to know who gave this information to the world BEFORE the Holy Prophet.

it's a jumbled mess of interpretation upon assumption.

23:13 fails to mention the egg

23:14 fails to mention the egg and seems to say there is more than one god!! (aHsan al-khaliqeen)

Here are all the translations of 23:14 I could find. None of them strike me as particularly specific. Or even correct in the case of the clotted blood.

(alaqa is more likely to mean clotted blood than leech)

Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be God, the best to create!

Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators.

Then WE fashioned the sperm into a clot; then WE fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then WE fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; Then WE clothed the bones with flesh; Then WE developed it into another creation. So blessed be ALLAH, the Best of creators.

Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator.

So I went and did a search to find what Quran says about the base material man was made of and found contradictions:

11:61 says earth
32:7 says clay
19:67 says out of nothing
38:71 says mire
35:11 says dust

Then there are references to 'nutfah' which isn't really sperm or the egg, but would translate to the ancient Greek concept of germinal fluid.

It also talks about drops of fluid but not the cells within. (which would be impressive without microscope.)

and then Sura 86:6 says the fluid (sperm) comes from between the ribs and the spine. That's just plain wrong unless it's talking about urine. But you can't impregnate a woman with urine.

Interestingly, the Greeks thought sperm passed through the kidneys so it's possible Muhammed borrowed this concept from the Greek.

Basically, I think this is a very explicit example of how you can make holy scripture mean anything you want if you 'interpret' it. I read the words and I do not see an exceptionally accurate description of conception and development of an embryo. It is no more accurate than I would expect for a person of that time.
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      05-28-2007, 12:35 PM   #166
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Bro, you really need to see the website below. Although I can see why you would think the Quran is wrong...

http://www.answering-christianity.co...embryology.htm

Edit: I knew sooner or later you would raise questions about why the Quran uses the word "We". See below...

Why does the Quran use "WE" and "HE" in Quran when referring to God (Allah)?

This is a good question and one that Bible readers have also asked about. The term "We" in the Bible and in the Quran is the royal "We" - as an example when the king says, "We decree the following declaration, etc." or, "We are not amused." It does not indicate plural; rather it displays the highest position in the language. English, Persian, Hebrew, Arabic and many languages provide for the usage of "We" for the royal figure. It is helpful to note the same dignity is given to the person being spoken to in English. We say to someone, "You ARE my friend." Yet the person is only one person standing there. Why did we say "ARE" instead of "IS"? The noun "you" is singular and should therefore be associated with a singular verb for the state of being, yet we say, "are." The same is true for the speaker when referring to himself or herself. We say, "I am" and this is also in the royal plural, instead of saying, "I is."

When Allah uses the term "HE" in Quran it is similar to the above answer. The word "He" is used when referring to Allah out of respect, dignity and high status. It would be totally inappropriate to use the word "it" and would not convey the proper understanding of Allah being who Allah is; Alive, Compassionate, Forgiving, Patient, Loving, etc. It is not correct to associate the word "He" with gender, as this would be comparing Allah to the creation, something totally against the teaching of Quran.


Please also reply to post#144
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      05-28-2007, 01:42 PM   #167
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> I knew sooner or later you would raise questions about why the Quran uses the word "We".

aHsan al-khaliqeen is not 'we'. It is 'creators' (mutiple form of creator)

I assumed 'we' would be used as a honorific form the way you indicate.

> Please also reply to post#144

I thought I did - what's in post 144 besides embryology?
I'll give it another shot:

> It has also been proven that meat stays fresher by slaughtering animals by the neck as it COMPLETELY drains all the blood out.

The study by Anil et al says different (see study about difference in blood draining between stunned and not stunned animals & quality of meat)

> Just because you can’t see something, it doesn’t mean it exits. I don’t see any molecules flying around.

I've seen scanning electron pictures of men making cartoons and logo's with atoms (atoms are the small components that make up a molecule). They could be fake, but there are too many people producing the same results.

> So now we have to assume he was playing dumb because it was in his best interests?

No, you misread. I said it was in his best interest *not* to appear dumb.

> What about the fact that the Quran mentioned comets being made of ice?

They look like ice.

> What about the fact that the Holy Prophet knew that the Dead Sea was the LOWEST point on the Earth?

The lowest point on earth is the Pacific Ocean's Marianas Trench.

The lowest land that is not a cave is indeed the area around the dead sea. However, 'adna al-ardi' might not mean 'lowest land' but 'land nearby', which would also make more sense in the light of the verse since the Romans where defeated in Jerusalem, not on the shoreline of the dead sea.

> May I ask when in his life he did this research etc? His life is very well documented infact and nowhere does it speak of such things.

Some of this is general knowledge. People had theories about how babies came to be. I'm not saying Muhammed did not get his verses from god, only that a wise man in those days would not have found the knowledge particularly contrary to what was believed at the time.

> archaeologists are STILL learning that the Quran has SO much information that was not possible for the Holy Prophet to know

Amazing, isn't it.

> It clearly shows the Pompeii was discovered in the 20th Century and there was no way the Holy Prophet could know about what happened to that civilisation.

So... no survivors?

> There was no way the Holy Prophet could know all this.

So that can mean only one of two things, right!

- Muhammed got this knowledge directly from god
- You are reading knowledge into the Quran that is not there.

> Has Allah put any emphasis on sexual intercourse with dark skinned women anywhere else in the Quran?

I was giving you an example on how you can read meaning that is not there.

>> The verses are not supposed to be read, they are supposed to be chanted out loud as they were when they were written down.
> That is just not true.

Talk to your imam

> You are forgetting that the Holy Prophet ALONE revealed the verses to the people and taught them to learn the Quran by heart.

Still it came to pass that there where different versions of the same verse, either by accident or malice.

> I would be more worried if the two people argued about what it said.

Apparently, that happened too.

> His uncle even commented on it. So what do you say now?

They had a right spat, but nothing was written down until later.

> The simple fact is that the prophecy was fulfilled because Allah is aware of what will happen before it happens. Please respond to this....

I'm sorry, I can't find the verse where it says that this man was Muhammed's uncle?
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      05-28-2007, 08:17 PM   #168
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aHsan al-khaliqeen is not 'we'. It is 'creators' (mutiple form of creator)

Oh sorry, I’ve been busy and just read it quickly. Yeah but a lot of people do think because Allah says “we” he refers to more than one god. Simply not true, read what I said about the term “we”. Yes I am aware of “ahsan al-khaliqeen”. In this chapter Allah described embryology:

14. Thumma khalaqna alnnutfata AAalaqatan fakhalaqna alAAalaqata mudghatan fakhalaqna almudghata AAithaman fakasawna alAAithama lahman thumma ansha/nahu khalqan akhara fatabaraka Allahu ahsanu alkhaliqeena

14. Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

I see what might confuse people. But it is really quite simple in my mind. Whether you translate “ahsan al khaliqeen” as “best to create” or “best of creators” it is the same thing. Now, consider this. Men are creators. Look at history, through the ages we create and invent many new things. But Allah is merely saying he is the “BEST of creators”. This is true. He created the Seven Heavens, Hell and the Earth and the rest of the universe. I don’t think there can be a better creator. Not just that. Allah is not a selfish creator who requires 100% from us. Allah knows that we will fail at some point. In the Quran it says “man was created weak”. Allah is the “best of creators” because he acknowledges his creation is not perfect! Humans were simply not designed to be perfect. This life is a test for us as mentioned EVERYWHERE else in the Quran. The Quran always speaks of the reward for living a good life and the punishment for living a bad one. Also, we could note that Allah gave his creation intelligence to be creators too, but indeed Allah is the BEST of creators...

Anyway, if you think I am wrong then please tell me any other parts of the Quran as well as Hadiths of the Holy Prophet where it is said that Muslims should worship other gods. Are other gods named for us to worship? Has Allah mentioned what other gods have done in the creation of the universe and all it contains? I think not…

I assumed 'we' would be used as a honorific form the way you indicate.

That’s good, not a lot of people understand this.

The lowest point on earth is the Pacific Ocean's Marianas Trench.

Yes, but look again:

"The Romans have been defeated, in the lowest part of the land (adnal-ardh), but after defeat they will soon be victorious."
[Quran 30:1-3]


Explanation

The term "adna" means both nearer and lowest. In the above verse Allah is informing us about the "lowest point on the surface of the earth". The above verse is describing that the place where Byzantine empire was defeated at the time of Prophet (SAW). By history we know that in 614 AD, the Byzantine empire was defeated at the basin of dead sea. And dead sea is the lowest place in the earth.

Scientific Research

The lowest point on land on earth is at the Dead Sea, on the border of Jordan and Israel. The Dead Sea lies at 1,312 feet (400 meters) below sea level.

The lowest point in the sea on earth is the Pacific Ocean's Marianas Trench. It's near Guam and is 35,840 feet (10,924 m) deep.

The shore of the Dead Sea in the Middle East is about 1,300 feet (400 meters) below sea level. Not even a close second is Bad Water in Death Valley, California, at a mere 282 feet below sea level. (1)

The surface of the Dead Sea is the lowest point on the Earth's surface at an elevation of 417m (465yd) below sea level (2003 figure). (2)

The Byzantines and the Persians actually fought at the Dead Sea basin, which is situated at the intersection point of the lands belonging to Syria, Palestine, and Jordan. At 399 meters below sea level, the Dead Sea is the "lowest" place on Earth's surface. (3)

Some of this is general knowledge. People had theories about how babies came to be

Bro remember the stuff you posted which made the Quran appear wrong about embryology? Well I posted a link. You really do need to see it, because I feel it shows how the Quran is infact right. Some people criticize the Quran to such an extent they end up lying. I mean the link shows how people even lie. Look at this. The blue part shows the claim, and the black part shows the Islamic response...

To establish a definition for alaqa we might take a look at the Qamus al-Muheet, one of the most important Arabic dictionaries ever compiled, by Muhammed Ibn-Yaqub al-Firuzabadi (AD 1329-1415) [12]. He says that alaqa has the same meaning as a clot of blood

This is the clearest example of intellectual dishonesty on his part. The Qamus-al-Muheet does not just say that alaqa means a clot of blood and leave it at that! The full definition follows:

1.Blood in its normal state or blood which is extremely red or which has hardened or congealed, 2.a piece thereof 3. Every thing that sticks ;4. Clay that sticks to hands;5. Unchanging enmity or love; 6.Zu `alaq is the name of a hill of Banu Asad, where they defeated Rabi`ah ibn Maalik;7. An insect of water that sucks blood;8. That portion of a tree that is within the reach of animals.

As should be clear from the above that there are numerous meanings of the word, but they are all derived from the sense of ‘attachment or clinging’. For example love is alaqah because it clings to the heart and a leech is alaqah because it clings to the skin of the human who’s blood it sucks, and clay is alaqah because it clings to the hands. A faithful translation of the word in English would be ‘anything that clings or sticks’ i.e. ‘clinging thing’ because this would allow all the meanings of the word to be preserved. Moiz Amjad writes the following in his article ‘what was man created from’:

So... no survivors?

100% guaranteed there were no survivors. The people of Pompeii had such a look of horror of their faces when their bodies turned to stone. People were found lying on the ground. Even the food one family prepared for a meal is still intact which proves the place wasn’t struck when people were sleeping i.e. at night. One man was even found crouched up in a corner with his head on his knees. The amazing thing is that the people did not even know the disaster was going to happen. Not one of the body’s preserve showed any movement to run or anything.

Coincidence? I think not. Lets also consider the city of Iram. The Quran describes the main feature of the city as being towers:

“Do you not see what your Lord has did with Ad’, of the city of Iram with lofty pillars, whose like was not created in any land.”
Quran 89:6-8


Archaeologists have recently discovered the city of Iram as it was covered beneath sands. The Quran says a snowstorm which lasted a week has struck the people and ruined them completely. We didn’t even know that there used be towers until we completely uncovered the place and then by use of technology, constructed what the city used to look like. The word for “pillars” in the Quran also mean “towers”. The quote above also says that no other city was like Iram. This has also been confirmed that Iram stood out because of its huge towers. The Quran says:

“Ad’ denied the truth, how terrible were my punishment and warnings! We unleashed a howling wind against them on a day of unremitting horror. It picked up men like uprooted stumps.”
Quran 54:18-20

“When they saw it as a storm cloud advancing on their valleys they said: ‘This is a storm cloud which will give us rain’ No, rather it is what you desired to hasten – a wind containing painful punishment.”
Quran 46:24


If you look at my quotes I provided which shows that the prophets ALL spoke the same words when they went to their people of different lands. For example, the people of Iram didn’t listen to the Prophet Houd (AS). I mentioned a quote about Prophet Houd (AS). Do you think it is proof that the Quran is the word of Allah? I mean you said it would be proof if the prophets spoke different languages and went to different lands at different times but spoke the same message…If you want more evidence from the Quran about people being punished then please look at part 2 of the video:



or the website: http://www.perishednations.com/index2.html

Talk to your imam

Bro, I can assure you that any imam or muslim infact will tell you that the Quran is a guide for us, and we are supposed to refer to it for advice in everyday situations and read it regularly to purify us. Let me tell you a story...

A young boy wished to copy his grandfather in everything he done, so he read the Quran too. The boy asked his grandfather how could the Quran benefit him if he didn’t understand Arabic? The grandfather told him to take a coal basket to the river and bring back water. The boy did as he was told but the water always dripped out and the basket was empty upon arriving back home every time, no matter how fast he ran. The boy said to his grandfather “There is no way I can bring water back in this basket, no matter how fast I run”. The grandfather said “look at the basket”. The boy looked at the basket and noticed it was clean and no longer dirty. The grandfather said “even though you cannot understand the Quran in Arabic, it still keeps your heart clean the more you read it.”

Still it came to pass that there where different versions of the same verse, either by accident or malice

Then I ask you to compare the Quran to the many hadiths recorded from the Holy Prophet via many companions, and tell me if the Quran gives a different message than the hadiths? No, the message is always the same. Unlike the bible where Jesus says one thing and Paul says another. Anyway, the Holy Prophet went to great lengths to preserve the Quran. He had infact learned it by heart and hundreds of companions also learned it by heart. However, because of wars etc. they had to produce the first compiled Quran otherwise the people who had learned it by heart might be wiped out. This first copy was kept by one of the prophets wives. Then PERFECT copies were made and distributed thoughout the muslim world to ensure that the Quran would never be lost.

They had a right spat, but nothing was written down until later.

That is not the point. Everyone in the community knew of this verse being revealed and they all seen that Abu Lahab, the uncle of the Holy Prophet, rejected it. Infact this is what people be so sure that the uncle was indeed evil. Then yes the Quran was compiled later, but the point is it has been proven that the verses were revealed OPENLY during the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and his uncle’s lifetime.

I'm sorry, I can't find the verse where it says that this man was Muhammed's uncle?

In Surah 111 it does not say that he is his uncle, but that is not at dispute. Please check this family tree:
http://www.sicgroup.org/images/tree/familytree1.JPG
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      05-29-2007, 09:36 AM   #169
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Please also reply to post #162, #163 and #164.
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      05-30-2007, 01:29 PM   #170
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> where it is said that Muslims should worship other gods. Are other gods named for us to worship?

Nono. I'm just fascinated Allah would compare himself with other creators and call himself - through the mouth of Muhammed - the best of them.

There is the potential there for more - albeit less potent and not so much worthy of worship - gods than Allah.

> By history we know that in 614 AD, the Byzantine empire was defeated at the basin of dead sea.

In 614 AD, the Persians conquered Jerusalem,

In 636 AD, the Byzantine army suffered a severe defeat to Caliph Omar and his vastly out-numbered Muslim army at the Battle of Yarmuk River in Syria.
Near as I can tell, the 'lowest' land translation was only used *after* it was found out it could be applicable. 'Land close by' strikes me as the most plausible meaning.

> Bro remember the stuff you posted which made the Quran appear wrong about embryology?

Even if you are right, it mentions nothing about the female cycle, the egg, ovulation, cells, ... somewhere it even says sperm stays in the womb for 40 days - that's not right either.

Did you know they're teaching this Muhammed knew about embryology at Dubai medical schools now? I think that's not good.

> 100% guaranteed there were no survivors.

eyewitness account:
http://pompeii.virginia.edu/pompeii/pliny.html

> I can assure you that any imam or muslim infact will tell you that the Quran is a guide for us, and we are supposed to refer to it for advice in everyday situations and read it regularly to purify us.

The verses where chanted by Muhammed and his followers. You can read them if you want, but Muhammed intended for them to be chanted. Reading them may not disclose their meaning to you fully.

>Unlike the bible where Jesus says one thing and Paul says another.

That figures, since they never met eachother, or knew anyone that did.

> In Surah 111 it does not say that he is his uncle

Yeah, I know. In fact, I can't find anything that says that this man is his uncle. I'm wondering where that came from. Might be that someone happened to die that fit the general description and was therefore proclamed his uncle.


Anyways...

You say Allah is real because Muhammed is a true prophet because Quran contains knowledge Muhammed could only have gotten from Allah.

Maybe it's me, but I do not see special knowledge in what was written, only interpretations and loose translations.

You need at least one verse that is specific, literal and explicit and cannot be interpreted in any other way but to show knowledge only available to Allah at the time.

Something like,say, how to make electricity, perhaps. Or that steel has the same coefficient of expansion as concrete and can thus be used as reinforcement?
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      05-30-2007, 01:44 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
That figures, since they never met eachother, or knew anyone that did.
Minor correction; in the first chapter of Paul's letter to the Galatians's he relates his visit to Jerusalem where he met with Peter and James.
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      05-30-2007, 03:08 PM   #172
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Nono. I'm just fascinated Allah would compare himself with other creators and call himself - through the mouth of Muhammed - the best of them.

There is the potential there for more - albeit less potent and not so much worthy of worship - gods than Allah.


I see what you mean, but really, what I said to you is 100% correct. In the Quran there is no mention of other gods or what they do or what their purpose is. Allah always says in the Quran that he is one. The Quran tells us about the Prophet Ibrahim (AS):

And recite to them the story of Abraham
When he said to his Father and to his people, "What worship ye?"
They said, "We worship idols, and constant is our devotion to them."
He said, "Can they hear you when ye cry to them?
Or help you or do you harm?"
They said, "But we found our Fathers do the like."


Near as I can tell, the 'lowest' land translation was only used *after* it was found out it could be applicable. 'Land close by' strikes me as the most plausible meaning.

I am sure that it refers to the land being the lowest of lands but could refer to land close by too. For me, I think it is a little bit too much of a coincidence for me that it is the lowest part of the Earth.

Even if you are right, it mentions nothing about the female cycle, the egg, ovulation, cells, ... somewhere it even says sperm stays in the womb for 40 days - that's not right either.

Yes, but is the Quran called "Embryology" or is it called "The Quran"? Here is a muslim's response to your point:

The Quran is not an embryology textbook-it does not need to painstakingly detail everything that occurs during gestation from contraception until birth for it to be recognised as accurate! The Quran has only referred to the development of the child in the womb to remind people that he has created them and will resurrect them. In order to remind them of their creation the major changes that occur up until the embryo becomes fully human-like (in the eighth week) are described. As long as the Quran has described these changes accurately, there is no point questioning why other changes are not described. The purpose of the Quran is to describe the creation of the human in the womb, and if it does this accurately (and I believe that it does) then it cannot be subject to criticism, even if it does not mention everything that occurs at every stage in the womb-since the purpose of the Quran is not to give a textbook account of all development during pregnancy but remind people of who created them and how he did this. The other details are excluded because they are not relevant to the message of the Quran. I would have thought that this would have been commonsense, but obviously the missionaries see things differently!

First you must know that it says nothing of the sort that the sperm stays in the womb for 40 days in the Quran. That is a "Hadith" which cannot be confused with the verses of the Quran.

Here is a another muslim's response to the Hadith about sperm being in the womb for 40 days:

As for the Hadith referred to, I do not believe that they are correctly ascribed to the Prophet. In my opinion any hadith even if is classified as ‘Sahih’ by scholars should be rejected as false if it contradicts the Quran or the established knowledge of mankind. This is the case, because the Hadith were compiled over two centuries after the Prophet (pbuh) had passed away and no-one can guarantee that mistakes were not made in transmission over the immense amount of time between the Prophet (pbuh) saying something, and it being written down by the collectors of Hadith. I would request the critic to stick to the issue i.e. the Quran and embryology and not confuse matters by referring to the Hadith. The Quran is free of errors and the Hadith is not, this is something that many Muslims acknowledge and as such criticism of the Hadith do not prove anything about the Quran and embryology.

Anyway I just wanted to show you that because we muslims accept that some hadiths may not be accurate. If you ever listen to a muslim conversation when hadiths are being mentioned, the source is almost always brought to question. The Quran is what Allah revealed to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) which was then compiled in the Quran. It is error-free. However, Hadiths are usually pieces of advice or information that the Holy Prophet gave to people. However, people collect these Hadiths and they were compiled over a very lengthy period of time. And let me tell you, the true Hadiths are usually supported by the Quran. We muslims consider the Hadiths that contradict the Quran to be of error and not true. Perhaps there was a mistake in the remembrance of it. I mean you said it was in the Holy Prophet’s best interest to appear clever. I’m sure if that WAS the case, he would make sure that his Hadiths and the Quran that was revealed to him would not contradict eachother. And let me ask also why the Holy Prophet would make wrong statements if he knew that one day people would be able to prove his word wrong?

And btw here is the response to the Holy Prophet "copying" Galen:

We have already established that nutfah does not mean ‘drop of semen’ but ‘drop of fluid’ and refers to both sperm and the zygote, interestingly Galen does not speak of a ‘drop of semen’ anywhere in the extract referred to by the critic-he only speaks of semen-which the Bible also speaks of! Alaqa does not mean ‘clot’ but ‘leech-like’ as we have already seen and so does not correspond with Galen’s account of the ‘blood filled foetus’. Wait a minute! The critic himself is describing mugdah as ‘the morsel of chewed flesh’ when just a moment ago he was saying that this was inaccurate translation of the word. Knives are long, and memories short! Back to the point ‘having the form of flesh’ as described by Galen is totally distinct from ‘chewed flesh’, ‘chewable flesh’ or ‘small lump of flesh’-whatever translation one uses to describe mugdah-one wonders where ‘Muhammed’ decided to add the size and precise details to Galen’s account of the flesh?!. The fourth stage is similar only in describing the flesh covering the bones, but having one stage the same as the Quran simply does not prove what the critic is trying so very hard to prove. The Quran describes the creation of man from a drop of sperm (nutfah), then a zygote (nutfah amshajjin), then as a leech-like thing (alaq), then as small lump of partly formed flesh (mugdah), then the formations of bones and muscles covering them. The Quran’s account is totally different from that of Galen! The critic’s entire argument collapses unless we accept that alaq means ‘blood clot’, nutfah means ‘semen’ and mugdah means ‘flesh-like’. It is only if we accept these translations that any link can possibly be made between Galen’s non-scientific account and the one found in the Quran. Since we have already demonstrated how each of these terms has other more appropriate meanings, I think that flaws of his arguments are obvious for all to see. The Quran does not copy Galen at all-the critic has failed miserably in trying to prove otherwise. As for the statement by a Muslim, all I can say is that he is badly mistaken-just like some Christians who deny that the Bible is wholly the word of God but still call themselves Christian!

Bro, you really need to read ALL of this website:
http://www.answering-christianity.co...embryology.htm

It shows that there is not even ONE mistake in the Quran's description about the creation of babies in the womb, and when you consider the TRUE translations of words you will also see the the Holy Prophet did NOT copy Greeks or anyone else. Therefore, it can be said that: what the Quran says about embryology is not the same as what other people before the Holy Prophet (pbuh) suggested, is 100% true, and there is no possible way for the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to know all of these facts.

eyewitness account:
http://pompeii.virginia.edu/pompeii/pliny.html


Well, In the Quran it does not say if there were any survivors from what I’ve read. BUT from the look of horror and surprise on the faces of the victims it was proved that the disaster came very sudden. The only thing I can think of is that IF Allah wanted people to survive it would be so that they could prove the word of the Quran to be true. But we cant say because we don’t know. What you posted was an eyewitness account BUT there were no survivors, look at the website you posted:

At the time of the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in A.D. 79 the Roman fleet under the command of Pliny the Elder was stationed across the Bay of Naples at Misenum. Pliny launched ships and sailed toward the erupting volcano for closer observation and to attempt a rescue. No rescue was possible and Pliny himself died during the eruption, not in the streets of Pompeii, but across the bay at Stabiae.

This is further proof that:
1. The actual eruption did occur even though it is not disputed.
2. There were no survivors.
3. Even when Pliny tried to help he was killed too.

The verses where chanted by Muhammed and his followers. You can read them if you want, but Muhammed intended for them to be chanted. Reading them may not disclose their meaning to you fully.

Bro, the Quran is there to be chanted and recited out loud. It purifies us. It calms the soul. BUT, you are saying you can “read them if you want”. This is not true. When we are at home, when there is no Imam to recite it to the congregation, we read the Quran. The Quran is a guide, even you cannot dispute this. If you read it you will see the advice in it. You may not like or accept the advice but it is there to be read. Reading the Quranic verses does disclose the meaning to us. When I read the Quran in private, translated in English of course, it speaks volumes to me and I concentrate on every word. Again, I am in a perfect position to confirm this fact because I carry it out practically.

Yeah, I know. In fact, I can't find anything that says that this man is his uncle. I'm wondering where that came from. Might be that someone happened to die that fit the general description and was therefore proclamed his uncle.

Bro, the fact that he is the Holy Prophet’s uncle is not at dispute. The Holy Prophet’s family tree is present and noone disputes over the names in it. Even the Holy Prophet’s uncle Abu Talib passed away as an unbeliever despite even the Holy Prophet trying to bring him to Islam. However, Abu Talib and the Holy Prophet had a good relationship and he even brought up the Holy Prophet in young age.
Okay for the satisfaction of your mind, let’s pretend he is not the Holy Prophet’s uncle. Has anything changed? He still treated the Holy Prophet badly and is STILL an unbeliever and a great enemy of Islam, hence why there is a chapter in the Quran about him. He will be punished.
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      05-31-2007, 11:58 AM   #173
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Thought you might be interested in this too Max:

THE MIRACLE OF IRON


Iron is one of the elements highlighted in the Qur'an. In Surat al-Hadid, meaning Iron, we are informed:

And We also sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind… (Qur'an, 57:25)

The word "anzalna," translated as "sent down" and used for iron in the verse, could be thought of having a metaphorical meaning to explain that iron has been given to benefit people. But, when we take into consideration the literal meaning of the word, which is, "being physically sent down from the sky," as in the case of rain and Sun rays, we realize that this verse implies a very significant scientific miracle. Because, modern astronomical findings have disclosed that the iron found in our world has come from giant stars in outer space.

Not only the iron on earth, but also the iron in the entire Solar System, comes from outer space, since the temperature in the Sun is inadequate for the formation of iron. The sun has a surface temperature of 6,000 degrees Celsius, and a core temperature of approximately 20 million degrees. Iron can only be produced in much larger stars than the Sun, where the temperature reaches a few hundred million degrees. When the amount of iron exceeds a certain level in a star, the star can no longer accommodate it, and it eventually explodes in what is called a "nova" or a "supernova." These explosions make it possible for iron to be given off into space.

There is also evidence for older supernova events: Enhanced levels of iron-60 in deep-sea sediments have been interpreted as indications that a supernova explosion occurred within 90 light-years of the sun about 5 million years ago. Iron-60 is a radioactive isotope of iron, formed in supernova explosions, which decays with a half life of 1.5 million years. An enhanced presence of this isotope in a geologic layer indicates the recent nucleosynthesis of elements nearby in space and their subsequent transport to the earth (perhaps as part of dust grains).

All this shows that iron did not form on the Earth, but was carried from Supernovas, and was "sent down," as stated in the verse. It is clear that this fact could not have been known in the 7th century, when the Qur'an was revealed. Nevertheless, this fact is related in the Qur'an, the Word of Allah, Who encompasses all things in His infinite knowledge.

Astronomy has also revealed that other elements also formed outside the Earth. In the expression "We also sent down iron" in the verse, the word "also" may well be referring to that idea. However, the fact that the verse specifically mentions iron is quite astounding, considering that these discoveries were made at the end of the 20th century. In his book Nature's Destiny, the well-known microbiologist Michael Denton emphasizes the importance of iron:

Of all the metals there is none more essential to life than iron. It is the accumulation of iron in the center of a star which triggers a supernova explosion and the subsequent scattering of the vital atoms of life throughout the cosmos. It was the drawing by gravity of iron atoms to the center of the primeval earth that generated the heat which caused the initial chemical differentiation of the earth, the outgassing of the early atmosphere, and ultimately the formation of the hydrosphere. It is molten iron in the center of the earth which, acting like a gigantic dynamo, generates the earth's magnetic field, which in turn creates the Van Allen radiation belts that shield the earth's surface from destructive high-energy-penetrating cosmic radiation and preserve the crucial ozone layer from cosmic ray destruction…

Without the iron atom, there would be no carbon-based life in the cosmos; no supernovae, no heating of the primitive earth, no atmosphere or hydrosphere. There would be no protective magnetic field, no Van Allen radiation belts, no ozone layer, no metal to make hemoglobin [in human blood], no metal to tame the reactivity of oxygen, and no oxidative metabolism.

The intriguing and intimate relationship between life and iron, between the red color of blood and the dying of some distant star, not only indicates the relevance of metals to biology but also the biocentricity of the cosmos…

This account clearly indicates the importance of the iron atom. The fact that particular attention is drawn to iron in the Qur'an also emphasises the importance of the element. In addition, there is another hidden truth in the Qur'an which draws attention to the importance of iron: Surat al-Hadid 25, which refers to iron, contains two rather interesting mathematical codes.

"Al- Hadid" is the 57th sura in the Qur'an. The abjad of the word "Al-Hadid" in Arabic, when the numerological values of its letters are added up, is also 57. (For abjad calculations see the section on Numerological Calculations (Abjad) in the Qur'an.)

The numerological value of the word "hadid" alone is 26. And 26 is the atomic number of iron.


Moreover, iron oxide particles were used in a cancer treatment in recent months and positive developments were observed. A team led by Dr. Andreas Jordan, at the world famous Charité Hospital in Germany, succeeded in destroying cancer cells with this new technique developed for the treatment of cancer-magnetic fluid hyperthermia (high temperature magnetic liquid). As a result of this technique, first performed on the 26-year-old Nikolaus H., no new cancer cells were observed in the patient in the following three months.

This method of treatment can be summarised as follows:

1. A liquid containing iron oxide particles is injected into the tumour by means of a special syringe. These particles spread throughout the tumour cells. This liquid consists of thousands of millions of particles, 1,000 times smaller than the red blood corpuscles, of iron oxide in 1 cm3 that can easily flow through all blood vessels.

2. The patient is then placed in a machine with a powerful magnetic field.

3. This magnetic field, applied externally, begins to set the iron particles in the tumour in motion. During this time the temperature in the tumour containing the iron oxide particles rises by up to 45 degrees.

In a few minutes the cancer cells, unable to protect themselves from the heat, are either weakened or destroyed. The tumour may then be completely eradicated with subsequent chemotherapy.

In this treatment it is only the cancer cells that are affected by the magnetic field, since only they contain the iron oxide particles. The spread of this technique is a major development in the treatment of this potentially lethal disease. In the treatment of such a widespread disease as cancer, the use of the expression "iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind" (Qur'an, 57:25) in the Qur'an is particularly noteworthy. Indeed, in that verse, the Qur'an may be indicating the benefits of iron for human health. (Allah knows best.)


Surat al-Hadid is the 57th in the Qur’an. The numerical value of the word “al-Hadid” in Arabic is 57. The numerical value of “hadid” on its own is 26. As can be seen from the periodic table to the side, 26 is the number of the iron atom. With the verse revealed in Surat al-Hadid Almighty Allah indicates how iron formed, and with the mathematical code contained in the verse He reveals to us a scientific miracle.
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      05-31-2007, 01:31 PM   #174
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> Iron is one of the elements highlighted in the Qur'an.

iron was widely used in the Middle East as early as 1200 BC.

6% of the planet is Iron and 85% of that is in the core. All material on earth comes from the heavens.

Do you know who Nostradamus is? He lived in the 1500's and also wrote verses that his followers insist predict the future. He predicted Napoleon, even predicted WWII and named Hitler by name!

Beasts wild with hunger will cross the rivers,
the greater part of the battlefield will be against Hitler.
He will drag the leader in a cage of iron,
when the child of Germany observes no law

Here's one of his verses that outline WWIII, a 27 year long plunge into darkness that is still to come and said to begin with a nuclear strike on a city at 45 degrees.

Out of the country of Greater Arabia
Shall be born a strong master of Mohammed...
He will enter Europe wearing a blue turban.
He will be the terror of mankind.
Never more horror.

The sky will burn at forty-five degrees.
Fire approaches the great new city.

and then 27 years later, the defeat of the east:

When those of the Northern Pole are united,
In the East will be great fear and dread...
One day the two great leaders will be friends;
Their great powers will be seen to grow.
The New Land will be at the height of its power:
To the man of blood the number is reported.

Apparently after that there's a few thousand years of peace.

Anyways, giving you some food for thought while we're waiting for the verse that contains explicit knowledge only Allah could know about.
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      06-01-2007, 08:33 AM   #175
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iron was widely used in the Middle East as early as 1200 BC.

6% of the planet is Iron and 85% of that is in the core. All material on earth comes from the heavens.


Yes, Iron was widely used. BUT how did our Holy Prophet come to know that Iron came from outer space? This is not even at dispute. Look:

Not only the iron on earth, but also the iron in the entire Solar System, comes from outer space, since the temperature in the Sun is inadequate for the formation of iron. The sun has a surface temperature of 6,000 degrees Celsius, and a core temperature of approximately 20 million degrees. Iron can only be produced in much larger stars than the Sun, where the temperature reaches a few hundred million degrees. When the amount of iron exceeds a certain level in a star, the star can no longer accommodate it, and it eventually explodes in what is called a "nova" or a "supernova." These explosions make it possible for iron to be given off into space.39

There is also evidence for older supernova events: Enhanced levels of iron-60 in deep-sea sediments have been interpreted as indications that a supernova explosion occurred within 90 light-years of the sun about 5 million years ago. Iron-60 is a radioactive isotope of iron, formed in supernova explosions, which decays with a half life of 1.5 million years. An enhanced presence of this isotope in a geologic layer indicates the recent nucleosynthesis of elements nearby in space and their subsequent transport to the earth (perhaps as part of dust grains).40

All this shows that iron did not form on the Earth, but was carried from Supernovas, and was "sent down," as stated in the verse. It is clear that this fact could not have been known in the 7th century, when the Qur'an was revealed. Nevertheless, this fact is related in the Qur'an, the Word of Allah, Who encompasses all things in His infinite knowledge.


Therefore our Holy Prophet did know this and the Quran says that Iron has “many uses for mankind”. Of course, he could know it had uses, but coupled with the fact that it was sent down to Earth, shows that this knowledge could NOT have been known in the 7th century. You cannot say it is vague. It clearly says Iron, not metal. And what about the fact that the numerical value of the Arabic word for Iron is the same on the periodic table? Just another coincidence eh?

Do you know who Nostradamus is? He lived in the 1500's and also wrote verses that his followers insist predict the future. He predicted Napoleon, even predicted WWII and named Hitler by name!

No, actually what he produced was texts that have been loosely translated. Look:

Bestes farouches de faim fleuves tranner
Plus part du champ encore Hister sera
En caige de fer le grand sera traisner
Quand rien enfant de Germain observa.
(Nostradamus)


Now lets see what people have translated it to...

Erica Cheetham Translated as :
Beasts wild with hunger will cross the rivers,
The greater part of the battle will be against Hitler.
He will cause great men to be dragged in a cage of iron,
When the son of Germany obeys no law.


Randi's translation:
Beasts mad with hunger will swim across rivers,
Most of the army will be against the Lower Danube.
The great one shall be dragged in an iron cage
When the child brother will observe nothing.


It is VERY vague, and how on earth do you translate “Hister” as “Hitler”?

See more at: http://www.humanists.net/avijit/arti...ld_war_iii.htm

I mean if anything, the Quran speaks about the punishment of the Jews. Consider when Prophet Musa (AS) [Moses] spoke to Allah after saving the Jews, to see them worshiping Idols? Or what about when the Jews plotted (unsuccessfully) against the Holy Prophet (pbuh)? Or what about the battle of Khaibar?

See more here about the Quran’s mention of Jews:
http://answering-islam.com/hitler_in_islam.htm

Out of the country of Greater Arabia
Shall be born a strong master of Mohammed...


Looking at his verses about WWIII, I think the translations will be loose again as they were before. However, Our Holy Prophet, in recorded hadiths, spoke about the end of the world. He told us about the signs etc. He spoke in specific details about the world war that will occur between Muslims and non-muslims. The Holy Prophet said a man (Imam Mehdi) from his generation, whose father’s name is Mohammed, will be a disciple of Allah and will cleanse the Earth. He will rule the world and spread Islam throughout it and the world will be at peace after many years of fighting. So from this its easy to see that he could have easily heard about the Holy Prophets Hadiths and made these wild predictions, and lets not forget about the extremely loose translations. Hister=Hitler, hmm I’m not sure about that one.

Oh yeah, and the Holy Prophet gave us clear signs about when Imam Mehdi will come, and many of these prophecies have been fulfilled already. Just type it in youtube and google and you'll see what I mean...

Anyway, you said if Allah sent prophets to nations and they spoke different languages but the same message, then it would be proof of Allah. I provided you with this and evidence that Allah did infact destroy nations that rejected his prophets. I mean you even provided me with evidence that noone was saved from Pompeii! What about the city of Iram? There was no way the Holy Prophet could know about their “towers” when it was completely destroyed and we recently discovered this information. Then there are the people of the Prophet Lut (AS) who I haven’t even mentioned, and there are also the people of Prophet Nuh (AS) [Noah]. The list goes on…

What about embryology? The only criticism of the Quran’s verses based on WRONG translations which suggest that the Holy Prophet DID have the same views of Greeks and copied them. BUT when you translate the text properly you will see that there is NO scientific error in the Quran and clearly the Holy Prophet did infact have information that could have only come from Allah. I mean the Dr. that went to the trouble of trying to disprove the Quran, tried to convince people that some words could only be translated one way. That it totally wrong and misleading!

I have also told you about things in our religion such as hygiene. We do not eat/drink blood, dead meat or pigs. With the exception to locusts and fish (dead meat) and blood from the liver or spleen. But there are strict conditions. For example, if a fish died of natural causes it is considered impure and therefore haram. We do not drink blood because of the dangers I already posted. You also informed me about the masaai diet. What about the fact that they are the skinniest and most malnourished people on the Earth. They also believe all the cows in the world belong to them. Yeah, right… I also told you about the dangers of eating pork etc. which clearly shows that the Quran is a book of wisdom. You simply replied that you would sacrifice your health for its good taste. This shows that your heart is closed and that you reject what is factual. Allah also mentions about people’s hearts being closed in the Quran. See my next post. Anyway I’m just showing that the Quran is full of wisdom and most of it was impossible for the Holy Prophet to know. You also mentioned food such as rats etc. But they are not permitted either. Islam does not permit us to eat insects or pests or dead meat or pork. The only exceptions are locusts and fish, but there are strict conditions.

There’s a lot of other things that you consider to be vague and assumptions are made. I feel that assuming our Holy Prophet dived into water to discover layers in water, observed the horizon to see the shape of the earth, observed the stars and moon etc, observed comets, observed mountains (even underground which we cannot see) etc. are huge assumptions. There are just some things that the Holy Prophet could not have know. How did he know that the Earth (and Heavens) used to be smoke? What about the explosion of galaxies? (see my next post) What about the creation of humans from clay? (dust and water) There is no way that the Holy Prophet could know that we contain elements of the Earths crust in our tissue, and there is no way that we could ever know that most of our body is made up of water…The list goes on…
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      06-01-2007, 08:35 AM   #176
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“And their hearts are sealed, so that they apprehend not.”
The Holy Quran (9:87)

"And as for those who believe not in the Hereafter there hearts refuse to know, for they are proud."
The Holy Quran (16:22)

"Having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not."
The Holy Quran (7:179)
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