BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion
 
GetBMWParts
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-26-2007, 06:06 AM   #133
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Allah says in His Honorable Book; “ He has forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of pork.”
{Al-Quran 2: 173}


The Quran is forbidding us to drink the blood. now consider that what are the possible reasons of Prohibiting drinking blood?

Reason:

If man drinks blood, all these germs will be carried to man, thus leading to so many diseases such hyper-uremia leading to renal failure, or hyper-ammoniaemia leading to hepatic coma.

Many germs carried by blood causes irritation to the membranes of stomach and intestines, leading to lots of diseases.

For all these reasons, Islam’s legal method of slaughter dictates that the animal be cleared of blood after slaughtering, so that cattle’s blood is not allowed by any means to enter the human body. This wisdom of Quran has been revealed long before microscopes are invented by man. Point to be noted is that, How Mohammad (SAW) know that drinking blood is harmful?
__________________
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-26-2007, 09:31 AM   #134
Max_!
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: E91
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe

Posts: 350
iTrader: (0)

Ooh, but there have been collisions which could have wiped us out, and there will be collisions which may wipe us out. Don't think Allah will stop an asteroid the size of tibet obliterating the planet.

> But what I am saying is, how come it hasnt already happened?

It did, and killed most of the dinosaurs.

> This universe IS balanced, you know that yourself.

I know it's not. It's expanding. A balanced universe would not expand nor contract.

> The moon, sun and earth all have their own orbits and everything. The universe has laws which keeps it in perfect balance

No, the universe does not keep things in balance. What is left after the universe's laws are all applied are in balance. (This is the balancing stone story again: the fact the stone is in balance does not mean Allah put it there, just that it hasn't fallen.)

> The sun and the moon (move) under a mathematical calculation.
> [Al-Quran 55:5] Are you telling me that is vague?

No, but people knew this well over 6000 years ago, and this knowledge may well have come to Muhammed from one of his followers in the 23 years or so he worked on Quran.

> Fasting gives the digestive system a much-needed rest

I'm sorry, but the muslims around here all eat themselves an indigestion during ramadam. They eat nothing during the day and then stuff their faces until they're ready to puke at night. And then they're sleepy the entire day and get into accidents.

Fasting is not good for your body, it causes your metabolism to change gear and increases the likelyhood of obesity. This is why all those crash-diet schoolgirls end up like chamber-elephants.

> Pork

Aw, come on. What about Fugu? Pigeons? Rats? (They're really teaming with disease) I can think of hundereds of foodstuffs that are far more dangerous than pork, yet Quran mentions only Pork?

I like pork, and I'll happily trade some health for it's smooth, delicious taste.

> Pork Causes pimples

Yeah, that's why most of the muslims I went to school with had zits the size of mount vesuvius.

> In the villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air.

So why didn't Allah give Muhammed the concepts of Toilets and Sewers?

> dead meat.

I'm sorry, muslims eat hundered of tonnes of non-halal meat imported with false halal-certificates. It doesn't appear to slow them down.

> As soon as something ‘dies’ it rots and loses its goodness

So you eat your meat raw off a live animal?

> If man drinks blood, all these germs will be carried to man, thus leading to so many diseases such hyper-uremia leading to renal failure, or hyper-ammoniaemia leading to hepatic coma.

The Maasai diet comprises primarily of meat and milk, however it is forbidden to mix the two. The Maasai create a drink made from milk and blood which is created by puncturing the loose flesh on the cow's neck with an arrow. They're not dying at quite the rate you'd think.

> Point to be noted is that, How Mohammad (SAW) know that drinking blood is harmful?

I don't know where he got the idea, but drinking blood is not harmful. At least, not more harmful than drinking water (which may also contain germs)
Max_! is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-26-2007, 11:18 AM   #135
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

It did, and killed most of the dinosaurs.

Then do you not see that we are still here because the human race has a purpose. Allah has dictated how the human race will end. He will bring the earth to an end and we will be ressurected. I guarantee you that our universe is in perfect balance, we will not be wiped out by anything other than Allah.

I know it's not. It's expanding. A balanced universe would not expand nor contract.

Balanced in what way? The universe follows laws which means that even though it is changing in size, everything still follows laws and orbits exist so that nothing can wipe out the human race. And by the universe expanding, it decreases the chance of collisions anyway....

No, but people knew this well over 6000 years ago, and this knowledge may well have come to Muhammed from one of his followers in the 23 years or so he worked on Quran.

But the point is, that along with EVERYTHING else cannot be argued with. If you read the stuff I posted, you will see that the Quran dictates embryology which noone knew before this time. Infact some people learned more. (see my next post).

I'm sorry, but the muslims around here all eat themselves an indigestion during ramadam. They eat nothing during the day and then stuff their faces until they're ready to puke at night. And then they're sleepy the entire day and get into accidents.

Well, we are not supposed to eat in excess. You see, when we are allowed to eat, at the same time on of our prayers has began, therefore good muslims only eat a little then go pray, and then eat more later, and have an early night. I fast myself, so I am in a perfect condition to say it does work. And it also teaches us restraint - trust me you value food and water MORE during that month.

Fasting is not good for your body, it causes your metabolism to change gear and increases the likelyhood of obesity. This is why all those crash-diet schoolgirls end up like chamber-elephants.

Well, you are arguing with proven things here. Many people (professionals in the field) would agree that fasting benefits our bodys too, aswell as that, there are all the benefits I wrote above.

Aw, come on. What about Fugu? Pigeons? Rats? (They're really teaming with disease) I can think of hundereds of foodstuffs that are far more dangerous than pork, yet Quran mentions only Pork?

Yes, but the Quran tells us the foods we CAN and CANNOT eat. So its not only pork we cannot eat.

I like pork, and I'll happily trade some health for it's smooth, delicious taste.

That seems logical...

Yeah, that's why most of the muslims I went to school with had zits the size of mount vesuvius.

Yes I too suffered from acne, but that does not dismiss the fact that pork causes pimples! You havent really broken what the Quran proves, YES muslims may get spots but that doesnt mean pork is good for you

So why didn't Allah give Muhammed the concepts of Toilets and Sewers?

Well I will research into that. BUT our Holy Prophet taught us lots of things to keep clean. He had few clothes but they were always spotlessly clean. He kept his teeth clean too by chewing on branches of trees. One person said he seen the Holy Prophet walking and there was a full moon, but the Holy Prophets smile was brighter than the moon. There is also a story where the candle went out and as the Prophets wife was sewing, she dropped her needle and fumbled about looking for it. The Holy Prophet smiled and his teeth lit the room and she found the needle. Our Holy Prophet also adviced us about trimming pubic hair, armpits, cutting our nails etc. ASWELL as cleaning ourselves five times a day. There was a story recently when a man was performing abolution in the toilets of a plane so he could pray. Someone on the plane told him he could not do that because his feet were dirty and he cannot wash them. But the man replied: "How many times do you wash your face in a day?" the woman replied: "once or twice". The man replied: "I wash my feet 5 times a day, so they are cleaner than your face". Anyway my point is, Islam teaches hygeine.

I'm sorry, muslims eat hundered of tonnes of non-halal meat imported with false halal-certificates. It doesn't appear to slow them down.

Well these muslims are not true muslims. True muslims would never do that. May Allah forgive them.

So you eat your meat raw off a live animal?

No, we say "I start in the name of Allah the most merciful the most kind" and then cut the animal from their neck. This causes the blood to COMPLETELY drain out of the body. This causes the LEAST pain to the animal and has been proven to keep meat stay fresher. Does this answer your question?

The Maasai diet comprises primarily of meat and milk, however it is forbidden to mix the two. The Maasai create a drink made from milk and blood which is created by puncturing the loose flesh on the cow's neck with an arrow. They're not dying at quite the rate you'd think.

Then maybe it is because it is a mixture of milk and blood and not pure blood. I will find out about this.

I don't know where he got the idea, but drinking blood is not harmful. At least, not more harmful than drinking water (which may also contain germs)
Yes but our prophet teaches us to beware of dirty water etc. Infact he tells us to look into our glass when we drink. This benefits us in a few ways. Firstly it looks modest, secondly, if by chance there is something in your drink, you will see it before you consume it. Once I went to a shop and bought a bottle of 7up, when I was drinkin it I felt something touch my lips, it was a wasp but anyway If I kept my eyes on the drink I would not have let it touch my lips. I of course threw the crap away. :mad:
__________________
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-26-2007, 11:20 AM   #136
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Now look at this page about embryology, you simply cannot say this is a coincidence:

http://www.islam101.com/science/embryo.html

and read this part from the website I gave you earlier:

I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Keith Moore for a television presentation, and we talked a great deal about this - it was illustrated by slides and so on. He mentioned that some of the things that the Qur'an states about the growth of the human being were not known until thirty years ago. In fact, he said that one item in particular - the Qur'an's description of the human being as a "leech-like clot" ('alaqah) at one stage - was new to him; but when he checked on it, he found that it was true, and so he added it to his book. He said, "I never thought of that before," and he went to the zoology department and asked for a picture of a leech. When he found that it looked just like the human embryo, he decided to include both pictures in one of his textbooks. Dr. Moore also wrote a book on clinical embryology, and when he presented this information in Toronto, it caused quite a stir throughout Canada. It was on the front pages of some of the newspapers across Canada, and some of the headlines were quite funny. For instance, one headline read: "SURPRISING THING FOUND IN ANCIENT BOOK!"! It seems obvious from this example that people do not clearly understand what it is all about. As a matter of fact, one newspaper reporter asked Professor Moore, "Don't you think That maybe the Arabs might have known about these things - the description of the embryo, its appearance and how it changes and grows? Maybe there were not scientists, but maybe they did something crude dissections on their own - carved up people and examined these things."

The professor immediately pointed out to him that he [i.e., the reporter] had missed a very important point - all of the slides of the embryo that had been shown and had been projected in the film had come from pictures taken through a microscope. He said, "It does not matter if someone had tried to discover embryology fourteen centuries ago, they could not have seen it!". All of the descriptions in the Qur'an of the appearance of the embryo are of the item when it is still too small to see with the eye; therefore, one needs a microscope to see it. Since such a device had only been around for little more than two hundred years, Dr. Moore taunted, "Maybe fourteen centuries ago someone secretly had a microscope and did this research, making no mistakes anywhere. Then he somehow taught Muhammad and convinced him to put this information in his book. Then he destroyed his equipment and kept it a secret forever. Do you believe that? You really should not unless you bring some proof because it is such a ridiculous theory." In fact, when he was asked "How do you explain this information in the Qur'an?" Dr. Moore's reply was, "It could only have been divinely revealed."!
__________________
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-26-2007, 11:52 AM   #137
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Max, I also notice that there are a lot of things that you havent answered. I have given you answers for everything you have said. Infact the things I personally dont know, I have even said I will find out. Here are some things below that I dont feel you have answered:

The Big Bang:

We both agree that the universe used to be a singularity. Modern science also shows that the Earth used to be smoke. This is mentioned in the Quran:

Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?..
Quran 21:30 -

Then He turned to the heavens when it was smoke...
Quran 41:11 -

"Do not the unbelievers see that space and the mass were joined together (rataqa) and WE seperate them ? (fataqa)".

[Al-Quran 21:30]


Please check the explanations next to the quotes and try to prove these wrong if you really do think they are wrong.

"Do not the unbelievers see that space and the mass were joined together (rataqa) and WE seperate them ? (fataqa)".
[Al-Quran 21:30]


Lets come into the depth of the Arabic word used in the verse.

The Arabic word used for "separating" here is "fataqa" which means "To blast" (Lughat-ul-Quran) and science tells us that universe came into existing by a big blast.

This is one of the evidence that Quran is a word of God because 1400 years ago no person able to described "The big bang". Yes it is only described by ONE WHO has full knowledge 1400 years ago. And that is only GOD, 'All-Knowing'.


Black Holes:

In Arabic dictionary (lughta-ul-Quran) saqaba means pierces dark i.e. to make a hole through something or penetrate. Therefore, the Quran says that Tarik is a star which is like a hole in it (saqib).

Please see this too


The Universe is expanding:

You agreed that this is significant, do you not then see that it is impossible for the Holy Prophet to know this?

"We created the universe with our force and we are expanding it"
{Al-Quran 51:47}



Everything is in motion:

Everything is in motion in the universe and the earth. And He is All-Mighty, All-Wise
[Al-Quran 59:1]


How could the Holy Prophet know this also? guessed it? I think not.

Layers in the sea:

I already said that it is impossible for the Holy Prophet to know this by himself as it would be noted in history. They simply did not have the equipment or resources to discover that seas have layers.

Or (the mind of a disbeliever is) like darknesses in a vast deep sea, a wave covers it, on the upper surface of this is (another) wave, (and) on the upper surface of this (are) dark clouds — depths of darkness, one above another (layers over layer). When he stretched out his hand he could not see it. And that for whom Allah has not arranged Noor(light) (Quran), then (there is) not for him from Noor.
[Al-Quran, 24:40]


Shape of the Earth:

And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped."
[AI-Quran 79:30]


Explanation:

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha which means an ostrich-egg. Allah is informing us in the above verse that earth looks like an egg. lets see in the light of science.

Please answer this too


Edit: and please let me know what you think of the embryology in the Quran too....
__________________
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-26-2007, 02:30 PM   #138
Max_!
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: E91
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe

Posts: 350
iTrader: (0)

> Max, I also notice that there are a lot of things that you havent answered.

Yeah - you can write more than I can read (need time for porn, remember)

But I'm convinced you are a true Muslim now.

> The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha which means an ostrich-egg. Allah is informing us in the above verse that earth looks like an egg. lets see in the light of science.

It's roughly egg-shaped. No argument there.

> They simply did not have the equipment or resources to discover that seas have layers.

The current free dive (no equipment) record is at 330m deep.

Surely Muhammed would be able to dive that deep?

You don't need equipment do dive deep enough to notice light diminishes quickly as you descend. You can see the dark beneath you even when you look down into the sea.

> pierces dark i.e. to make a hole through something or penetrate. Therefore, the Quran says that Tarik is a star which is like a hole in it (saqib).

A black hole does not pierce anything. It's not a hole. They call it a hole because it appears to be a hole but it's not a hole.

> "We created the universe with our force and we are expanding it"

I'm not sure the word 'universe' in there is a proper translation.

> Everything is in motion in the universe and the earth. And He is All-Mighty, All-Wise
[Al-Quran 59:1]
How could the Holy Prophet know this also? guessed it? I think not.

He wasn't blind and could see the stars in motion in the night's sky?

> We both agree that the universe used to be a singularity.

Sort of. I'm saying that it's the most likely of current theories.
But there are stars out there that appear to be older than 13.7 million year - they pre-date the big bang - which could be a problem.
Max_! is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-26-2007, 03:21 PM   #139
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

It's roughly egg-shaped. No argument there.

Then how can our Holy Prophet (pbuh) know this? there was NO outer space travel in those days...

Surely Muhammed would be able to dive that deep?

Yes, BUT only recently we have established that it is layers in the waters, not just the gradual change of light to dark. This is the whole point. If Allah said that it got darker, that could be seen as vague, but the main point is the layers. These layers are significant because different layers have different properties ie no plants grow in the twilight zone.

A black hole does not pierce anything. It's not a hole. They call it a hole because it appears to be a hole but it's not a hole.

But can you not see metaphorically how Allah describes it? I think it is amazing and there can be no confusion, what could the Holy Prophet see from earth that would resemble a black hole?

I'm not sure the word 'universe' in there is a proper translation.

Well, that is controversial, I would say yes it is a proper translation.

He wasn't blind and could see the stars in motion in the night's sky?

Yes that alone could be a coincidence, but the fact that Allah speaks about the expanding of the universe, the motion of it, and even the fact that it is an ostrich egg shape!

Sort of. I'm saying that it's the most likely of current theories.
But there are stars out there that appear to be older than 13.7 million year - they pre-date the big bang - which could be a problem.


Well, our calculations could be wrong. The simple fact is we have established that there was a "big bang" and we also discovered that the Earth used to be "smoke". These are both mentioned explicitly in the Quran.

Bro can I ask what you think about the fact that Allah mentioned that Phaoroh's body would be preserved?

or what about when Allah wrote in the Quran that the Holy Prophet's evil uncle would perish? How could Allah guess that he wouldnt change to muslim within those 10 years? I mean Abu Lahab (the uncle) could have easily coverted to muslim to cancel out the prophecy, but no he didnt, it was fulfilled...

And what about the fact that Allah mentions plants are in pairs? male and female.

What about the fact that we are made from clay? Allah mentions this.
Allah also mentions we are made of water too, what do you think of that? They have been proved

What about the Roman's defeat "at the lowest part of the earth"? how could the Holy Prophet know this?

and what about comets being made of ice?

and what about embryology? there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the Holy Prophet could guess that the shape of the embryo after a certain time would resemble a leech. This is SO explictly mentioned, you really need to look at the link, no way you can dismiss it. Microscopes werent even invented at that time!

I feel that there's just to much for the Quran to be a text of coincidences. The Quran even challenges you produce a book which explains the universe and EVERYTHING in it if you do not believe, but who can produce such a book? So far NOONE has done this even though someone could easily take modern science and compile it into a complete book. Not really an achievement since many great people have done all the work, you would just be compiling it and you still couldnt answer WHY the universe was created, and what will happen after we die etc.

If you really think death is final - think again. Look what happend to this young muslim a few hours after his death. He must of been a terrible person, again, punishment in the grave has also been covered in the Quran. Infact the end of the Earth is mentioned in the Quran and the Holy Prophets speeches/sermons. The links for videos showing this are below, and please see the attachment...


That is part 1 of 5, please try watch them all
Attached Files
File Type: doc After-Death.doc (664.0 KB, 2086 views)
__________________

Last edited by hks786; 05-26-2007 at 05:41 PM.
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-27-2007, 01:54 AM   #140
Badmaash
Second Lieutenant
 
Badmaash's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NoVA

Posts: 243
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
but the muslims around here all eat themselves an indigestion during ramadam. They eat nothing during the day and then stuff their faces until they're ready to puke at night. And then they're sleepy the entire day and get into accidents.

Fasting is not good for your body, it causes your metabolism to change gear and increases the likelyhood of obesity. This is why all those crash-diet schoolgirls end up like chamber-elephants.
Thats not the way it is supposed to be done. They are wrong for eating like that, but atleast they are fasting. Don't always let what others do influence your decisions. Its fine if you don't belive becuase in your heart you don't feel it.. but you always point the finger at this group of muslims you seem to know (and I got to tell you, they seem like a bad group) as your basis.

I do fast, It IS good for you. Says me, from experience, Says doctors from studying. I am not obesse, I am usually able to trim a few excess pounds of fat, and gain some muscle. Fasting is not some sort of "diet" designed to make you loose weight. If you are fat, you need to control your eating at all times. Fasting has a much greater purpose. One that you will only feel as you are doing it.
__________________
2007 e92 335i coupe Space Gray | Black Leather | Brushed Aluminum Trim | 6MT | ZPP | ZSP | iDrive | iPod | Comfort Access | Heated Seats
2008 e90 328xi Sedan - Awaiting Transport
2003 Z4 3.0 gray/black - SOLD
Badmaash is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-27-2007, 02:27 AM   #141
Max_!
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: E91
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe

Posts: 350
iTrader: (0)

>> It's roughly egg-shaped. No argument there.
> Then how can our Holy Prophet (pbuh) know this?

If you're out in the desert and you look at the horizon, you see the world is curved.

Your validation for Quran is (partly) based on the idea that arabs 1400 years ago were dumb morons who couldn't possibly know anything. They where NOT dumb!

> But can you not see metaphorically how Allah describes it?

There's metaphorical references to black holes in Mein Kampf.

> I think it is amazing and there can be no confusion, what could the Holy Prophet see from earth that would resemble a black hole?

Black holes are not holes and do not pierce anything, not even metaphorically.

A black hole is like a bunch of hot chicks in a black limo with tinted windows driving at night with the lights off:

You hear giggling but you can't see it. When you look in the direction of the giggling, you see something obscuring lights that pass behind it, but you can't see the car itself - and anyone that gets in the limo doesn't come out anymore. It looks like black hole, but it's not empty, it's not a hole.

> Bro can I ask what you think about the fact that Allah mentioned that Phaoroh's body would be preserved?

I don't know what Allah said, but the preservation of their bodies and eternal afterlife was promised to the Pharao's by the god Osiris.

By the time Muhammed walked the earth, various Egyptian tombs had already been raided, and the mummified - preserved - bodies found inside.

> when Allah wrote in the Quran that the Holy Prophet's evil uncle would perish?

Quran was written down after the evil uncle died.

> And what about the fact that Allah mentions plants are in pairs? male and female.

Allah apparently forgot about some of the plants he made that are neither... or both.

> there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the Holy Prophet could guess that the shape of the embryo after a certain time would resemble a leech.

Yeah, like women didn't have miscarriages until the last 50 years.

> I feel that there's just to much for the Quran to be a text of coincidences.

Yes, I know you do... But your belief is clouding your judgement.

> Not really an achievement since many great people have done all the work

Which makes it much more reliable and trustworthy.

> Fasting has a much greater purpose. One that you will only feel as you are doing it.

What you feel is ketosis, and it's probably not that healthy.
Max_! is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-27-2007, 09:45 AM   #142
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

If you're out in the desert and you look at the horizon, you see the world is curved.

By the time Muhammed walked the earth, various Egyptian tombs had already been raided, and the mummified - preserved - bodies found inside.

Yeah, like women didn't have miscarriages until the last 50 years.


So far, you have assumed that our Holy Prophet studied the Horizon, studied the movement of the stars, assumed that translation of certain words means that the Quran might not have predicted the expansion of the universe, assumed that the Holy Prophet dived into waters to discover layers in oceans, assumed that the Holy Prophet observed miscarriages, assumed that he had knowledge of Egyptian tombs. What about the fact that the Quran mentioned comets being made of ice? What about the fact that the Holy Prophet knew that the Dead Sea was the LOWEST point on the Earth? What about the fact that he knew we are made of clay and water? What about the fact that he described mountains as pegs? What about the fact that he encouraged the “halal” slaughter of animals which has been proven to cause the least pain to the animal and drains the blood completely AND keeps meat fresher.

So far I feel you have made quite a lot of assumptions. First of all he was uneducated and unable to read/write. I find that it is strange for this sort of person to speak about such things even though they do not have simple education. You also say that the Holy Prophet could have observed quite a lot of things. But the simple fact is that many of the things he speaks about have not been mentioned in other books in history even after his time. Okay the Egyptians might have discovered some things but you are then assuming the Holy Prophet was the only man at the time to dive into water to discover layers in the sea etc, he was the only man at the time to notice the movement of everything in the universe, and that he was the only man at the time to notice the miscarriage of babies. And by the way, he didn’t only describe one stage of pregnancy. So then we are assuming that he observed many stages and then noted the in the Quran. This arises the assumption that he was the ONLY man at throughout history to do this, because it is NOT recorded in any other historical text EVEN AFTER HIS TIME. Plus he was uneducated and the microscope wasn’t even invented at the time, so I seriously doubt he would have such confidence especially for an uneducated man, to speak of such matters.

I also ask you to answer the questions above. I really feel that the more answers you give, more assumptions and coincidences arise which make it far to hard to believe the Holy Prophet physically observed and gathered knowledge.

Another point I would like to make, earlier I spoke about the fact that Allah punished nations after giving them warnings. In the Quran Allah says the does not punish a nation unless he sends a warning and messenger. In the Quran Allah mentions the destruction of many nations and by archeological findings they have been proven to be true. And if you argue with this then it would arise more assumptions that the Holy Prophet gathered knowledge about destroyed nations that until recently we did not even know existed!

Please see:



There are a few parts I think, its called “Perished Nations” by Harun Yayha. Its very detailed and again uses evidence from the Quran which describes the destruction of many nations. After you watch part 1 (the link above) just search in YouTube for the other parts.

Black holes are not holes and do not pierce anything, not even metaphorically.

Well, in my opinion I think it is still a good description of a black hole. We know that black holes are given that name by appearance and I feel that the Quran describes it properly when it uses the word “pierce”. This is because it gives the image of it being penetrated ie a hole. The word dark is also used. Therefore dark + hole = black hole. That is my opinion and many other muslim, you may not agree but oh well.

Quran was written down after the evil uncle died.

Yes it was completely compiled after the Holy Prophet and his uncle left this earth, but that is not the point. You may not know that various parts of the Quran were recited OPENLY during the Holy Prophets lifetime. They were recited publicly. The purpose was to guide the people as Allah saw fit. For example, there was confusion about the limits of sexual intercourse i.e. anal sex etc, and then Allah revealed verses to the Holy Prophet which were publicly transmitted. The part of the Quran I quoted from is Surah 111 – “Surah Lahab” which was revealed during the “Meccan period”. This period started from the beginning of the Holy Prophets revelations until just 10 years before he left the world. The last 10 years of his life formed the “Medinan period”. I assure you that his evil uncle AND the Holy Prophet were VERY MUCH ALIVE when these verses were announced in PUBLIC. Look:

“…On account of these very misdeeds this man was condemned in this Surah by name, and there was a special need for it. When the Holy Prophet's own uncle followed and opposed him before the Arabs who came for hajj from outside Makkah, or gathered together in the fares held at different places, they regarded it as against the established traditions of Arabia that an uncle should run down his nephew without a reason, should pelt stones at him and bring false accusations against him publicly. They were, therefore, influenced by what Abu Lahab said and were involved in doubt about the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace). But when this, Surah was revealed, and Abu Lahab, filled with rage, started uttering nonsense, the people realized that what he said in opposition to the Holy Prophet was not at all reliable, for he said all that in his mad hostility to his nephew.!”

Which makes it much more reliable and trustworthy.

But why more trustworthy? You know yourself the Quran is full of vast knowledge. For example, embryology, this is a recent discovery and prior to modern science it was not included in historical scriptures except the Quran! So how can you say modern science is more reliable? If anything the Quran is more trustworthy. I don’t think you will ever truly appreciate the Quran. You said it yourself; there are some things that you just wouldn’t sacrifice such as porn or pork. We muslims understand the concept of sacrifice as it keeps us pure. I’m not sure if it was you that said that you would rather “burn in hell than be a servant of Allah”. This again is arrogant and arrogance is heavily punished. It just shows that some people’s hearts are closed. If their hearts are closed, what would be the point of studying Islam? You must look at Islam with a neutral perspective, and with no feelings against it or for it. And if Allah created us for this purpose, who are we to deny it? Allah is constantly testing us and we must try to pass the test of this earthly life.

What you feel is ketosis, and it's probably not that healthy.

There is a difference between starving yourself and fasting. We eat before sunrise (after a good early night’s sleep) then we eat after sunset. Coincidently, our 4th daily prayer starts at the same time, so we have a limited time to eat. We perform the prayers and then eat again, this means there is no indigestion. And then we have the rest of the night to do what we like, and then have an early night. There is no harm to our bodies and again, I am in a perfect position to say this because I perform it myself. I feel that it disciplines us and also reminds us of the value of food and drink. That is obviously of huge value to us as our brothers and sisters in poorer countries are starving and suffering from poverty.
__________________
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-27-2007, 12:37 PM   #143
Max_!
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: E91
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe

Posts: 350
iTrader: (0)

> What about the fact that he encouraged the “halal” slaughter of animals which has been proven to cause the least pain to the animal

I'm sorry, but we stun our animals before killing them so they feel no pain at all, instead of as little as possible.

> So far I feel you have made quite a lot of assumptions.

True, but none of my assumptions involved a magical, invisible, all-powerfull being to back them up.

> First of all he was uneducated and unable to read/write.

Possible, but uneducated does not mean dumb and it would not have been in his best interest to appear clueless, so he probably made an effort to educate himself.

> I find that it is strange for this sort of person to speak about such things even though they do not have simple education.

Many brilliant people in the past spoke of such things without having had a formal education.

> You also say that the Holy Prophet could have observed quite a lot of things. But the simple fact is that many of the things he speaks about have not been mentioned in other books in history even after his time.

A lot of it is carved in stone on egyptian walls, though.

> Okay the Egyptians might have discovered some things but you are then assuming the Holy Prophet was the only man at the time to dive into water to discover layers in the sea etc,

No, but this would have been seen as true knowledge by others that did.

> he was the only man at the time to notice the movement of everything in the universe, and that he was the only man at the time to notice the miscarriage of babies.

> No, but this would have been seen as true knowledge by others that did.

> And by the way, he didn’t only describe one stage of pregnancy.

Miscarriages can happen in any stage of pregnancy, and you only need to talk to a midwife to get the inside info.

> This arises the assumption that he was the ONLY man at throughout history to do this,

Possible, since most midwives are women.

> because it is NOT recorded in any other historical text

There are drawings of fetuses that pre-date Muhammed.

> Plus he was uneducated

But not dumb.

> and the microscope wasn’t even invented at the time,

That's true.

> so I seriously doubt he would have such confidence especially for an uneducated man, to speak of such matters.

Even false prophets making bogus claims have the confidence of a man inspired by god himself.

> In the Quran Allah mentions the destruction of many nations and by archeological findings they have been proven to be true

That goes without question, otherwise you wouldn't need archeologists.

> it uses the word “pierce”. This is because it gives the image of it being penetrated ie a hole. The word dark is also used. Therefore dark + hole = black hole. That is my opinion and many other muslim, you may not agree but oh well.

So you are sure this is about black holes and not a metaphorical verse about sex with dark skinned women?

> You know yourself the Quran is full of vast knowledge.

But so far only knowledge that is implied or - when it's specific - not impossible for a reasonably bright arab to figure out in 23 years.

The Quran is, first and foremost, a literary marvel. It is the pinnacle of Arabic literature.

The verses are not supposed to be read, they are supposed to be chanted out loud as they were when they were written down.

My assumption is that there are many contributors to Quran, that it is not just the word of Allah recited by Muhammed.

Reason I say this is because there were regional differences in the verses when they came to assemble all pieces of Quran into one book.
Some verses are known to have originated from just two people who claimed they heard them from Muhammed.

> there are some things that you just wouldn’t sacrifice such as porn or pork.

Yeah, browsing for porn is a god-given right!
Max_! is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-27-2007, 02:36 PM   #144
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

I'm sorry, but we stun our animals before killing them so they feel no pain at all, instead of as little as possible.

Yes, but we do it in the name of Allah, and that makes it “halal”. It has also been proven that meat stays fresher by slaughtering animals by the neck as it COMPLETELY drains all the blood out.

True, but none of my assumptions involved a magical, invisible, all-powerfull being to back them up.

Just because you can’t see something, it doesn’t mean it exits. I don’t see any molecules flying around. And just because you don’t believe in Allah it doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. Like Allah says, If you do not believe in the Quran, then produce a book with knowledge of the complete universe and all it contains. And mention WHY all of this happened. Why we are here, Why the universe was created. We muslims say that Allah has always been there even before the big bang etc. So can you challenge Allah and take up his offer by producing such a text? Can you say what was there before the big bang or singularity? I would be very interested in seeing such a text that anyone can provide…

Possible, but uneducated does not mean dumb and it would not have been in his best interest to appear clueless, so he probably made an effort to educate himself.

This is another assumption. So now we have to assume he was playing dumb because it was in his best interests?

A lot of it is carved in stone on egyptian walls, though.

Yes but not EVERYTHING. You still haven’t answered some questions. Look:

“What about the fact that the Quran mentioned comets being made of ice? What about the fact that the Holy Prophet knew that the Dead Sea was the LOWEST point on the Earth? What about the fact that he knew we are made of clay and water? What about the fact that he described mountains as pegs?”

There are drawings of fetuses that pre-date Muhammed.
Yes, so now we are making another assumption that the Holy Prophet went to all this trouble of gathering all this information. May I ask when in his life he did this research etc? His life is very well documented infact and nowhere does it speak of such things.

Even false prophets making bogus claims have the confidence of a man inspired by god himself

And making challenges? Okay, then I leave with you the challenge above.

That goes without question, otherwise you wouldn't need archeologists.

No, many archaeologists are not muslim and infact of no faith. They merely decide to look into the past and see what was there before. They make use of historical scriptures yes, but noone really looked in the Quran and many archaeologists are STILL learning that the Quran has SO much information that was not possible for the Holy Prophet to know. Did you watch the video? It clearly shows the Pompeii was discovered in the 20th Century and there was no way the Holy Prophet could know about what happened to that civilisation. And what about the people of Ad’ who suffered from the sand storm? We only recently found it. There was no way the Holy Prophet could know all this.

So you are sure this is about black holes and not a metaphorical verse about sex with dark skinned women?

Use your head. Has Allah put any emphasis on sexual intercourse with dark skinned women anywhere else in the Quran? No. And you said that the Holy Prophet was trying to appear full of knowledge and he could have easily gathered it. If he really wanted to appear knowledgeable would he detail sex with dark skinned women? I think not.

The verses are not supposed to be read, they are supposed to be chanted out loud as they were when they were written down.

That is just not true. The Holy Prophet encouraged us throughout his lifetime to refer to the Quran for guidance. He said whoever follows the Quran and his Sunnah will be on the true path.

My assumption is that there are many contributors to Quran, that it is not just the word of Allah recited by Muhammed.

Again another assumption. You are forgetting that the Holy Prophet ALONE revealed the verses to the people and taught them to learn the Quran by heart. This is how it was eventually compiled into the Quran. Therefore there are no contributors except the Holy Prophet who was given revelations from Allah.

Some verses are known to have originated from just two people who claimed they heard them from Muhammed.

Yes but is that so hard to trust. Infact I find it EASIER to trust. The Holy Prophet taught his companions to learn the Quran by heart and if more than one of them remembered something the same as the other person, then it is most likely to be correct. I would be more worried if the two people argued about what it said. And you are forgetting that the Quran repeats itself in more than one place which means when the Quran was being compiled, if there was mistakes it would be easily spotted.

Edit: You havent answered the explanation I gave about the Holy Prophet's uncle. The verses were recited openly during the Holy Prophet's lifetime AND his uncle's lifetime. His uncle even commented on it. So what do you say now? I mean his uncle could have EASILY heard it and became muslims to make the Quran wrong. So why didnt he? He knew it was all he had to do. The simple fact is that the prophecy was fulfilled because Allah is aware of what will happen before it happens. Please respond to this....

Yeah, browsing for porn is a god-given right!

I thought you didn’t believe in god, so how is it god-given? Lol, Allah given men free-will but he does warn of punishment if they do not follow his law. Please watch the videos I gave you.
__________________

Last edited by hks786; 05-27-2007 at 05:49 PM.
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-27-2007, 08:56 PM   #145
elmariachi
Major
 
elmariachi's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW ///M Division
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Singapore

Posts: 1,323
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> What about the fact that he encouraged the “halal” slaughter of animals which has been proven to cause the least pain to the animal

I'm sorry, but we stun our animals before killing them so they feel no pain at all, instead of as little as possible.

> there are some things that you just wouldn’t sacrifice such as porn or pork.

Yeah, browsing for porn is a god-given right!
Based on my research on one of the projects i did before, you claim that stunning the animals, they feel no pain at all. Well, let me put it in scientific perspective for you since you think otherwise.

German Research Studies Pain


It therefore may come as a surprise to those who have made such acclimations to learn of the results of a study carried out by Professor Wilhelm Schulze and his colleague Dr. Hazim at the School of Veterinary Medicine, Hannover University in Germany. The study: ‘Attempts to Objectify Pain and Consciousness in Conventional (captive bolt pistol stunning) and Ritual (halal, knife) Methods of Slaughtering Sheep and Calves’ concludes that Islamic slaughtering is the most humane method of slaughter and that captive bolt stunning, practiced in the West, causes severe pain to the animal.

In the study, several electrodes were surgically implanted at various points of the skull of all animals, touching the surface of the brain. The animals were allowed to recover for several weeks. Some animals were then slaughtered by making a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck cutting the jugular veins and the carotid arteries as well as the trachea and esophagus (Islamic method). Other animals were stunned using a Captive Bolt Pistol (CBP). During the experiment, an electroencephalograph (EEG) and an electrocardiogram (ECG) recorded the condition of the brain and the heart of all animals during the course of slaughter and stunning.

The results were as follows:

I – Islamic Method

1. The first three seconds from the time of Islamic slaughter as recorded on the EEG did not show any change from the graph before slaughter, thus indicating that the animal did not feel any pain during or immediately after the incision.

2. For the following 3 seconds, the EEG recorded a condition of deep sleep - unconsciousness. This is due to the large quantity of blood gushing out from the body.

3. After the above-mentioned 6 seconds, the EEG recorded zero level, showing no feeling of pain at all.

4. As the brain message (EEG) dropped to zero level, the heart was still pounding and the body convulsing vigorously (a reflex action of the spinal cord) driving a maximum amount of blood from the body thus resulting in hygienic meat for the consumer.

II - Conventional Method


1. The animals were apparently unconscious soon after stunning.

2. EEG showed severe pain immediately after stunning.

3. The hearts of animals stunned by C.B.P. stopped beating earlier as compared to those of the animals slaughtered according to the Islamic method resulting in the retention of more blood in the meat. This in turn is unhygienic for the consumer.

Western-Style Slaughtering and Mad Cow’s Disease

Not only is this method of stunning animals before the slaughter severely painful as shown by the previous experiment, but there is also a rising concern that this method may be a factor in the spread of mad cow’s disease from cattle to humans as it was discovered in recent research carried out at Texas A&M University and by Canada’s Food Inspection Agency, that a method called pneumatic stunning (which is the firing of a metal bolt into the cow's brain followed by a pulverizing burst of 150 pounds of air pressure) delivered a force so explosive that it scattered brain tissue throughout the animal ( i think this is far more cruel that anything else). This news is disturbing since the brain tissue and spinal cord are the most infectious parts of an animal with mad cow disease, which causes fatal Swiss cheese like holes in the brain of the infected animal. It is more disturbing to find out that around 30 to 40 percent of American cattle are stunned by pneumatic guns.

Islamic Regulations for the Slaughter

As one can see from the previous studies, Islamic slaughtering of animals is a blessing to both the animal and to humans alike. In order for the slaughtering to be lawful, several measures must be taken by the one performing the deed. This is to ensure the highest benefit to both the animal and the consumer.

In this regard, the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) said: "God calls for mercy in everything, so be merciful when you kill and when you slaughter: sharpen your blade to relieve its pain".

The object used to slaughter the animal should be sharp and used swiftly. The swift cutting of vessels of the neck disconnects the flow of blood to the nerves in the brain responsible for pain. Thus the animal does not feel pain. The movements and withering that happen to the animal after the cut is made are not due to pain, but due to the contraction and relaxation of the muscles deficient in blood. The prophet (peace be upon him) also taught Muslims neither to sharpen the blade of the knife in front of the animal nor to slaughter an animal in front of others of its own kind.

The cut should involve the windpipe (trachea), gullet (esophagus), and the two jugular veins without cutting the spinal cord. This method results in the rapid gush of blood draining most of it from the animal’s body. If the spinal cord is cut, the nerve fibers to the heart might be damaged leading to cardiac arrest thus resulting in stagnation of blood in the blood vessels. The blood must be drained completely before the head is removed. This purifies the meat by removing most of the blood that acts as a medium for microorganisms; meat also remains fresh longer as compared to other methods of slaughtering.

Therefore accusations of animal cruelty should very rightly be focused on those who do not use the Islamic way of slaughtering but prefer to use those methods which cause pain and agony to the animal and could also very well cause harm to those consuming the meat.

There is a reason behind slaughtering it in the Islamic way. Its to the extent you want to believe in it or not. Its not abt cruelty but a way of hygiene, a way of life.

Cheers.
elmariachi is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-27-2007, 09:40 PM   #146
BavarianMW
Banned
 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Laguna Beach, CA

Posts: 239
iTrader: (0)

I think we should all just live like borat and follow the Hawk.......haha jk
Attached Images
 
BavarianMW is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2007, 02:31 AM   #147
Max_!
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: E91
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe

Posts: 350
iTrader: (0)

> concludes that Islamic slaughtering is the most humane method of slaughter and that captive bolt stunning, practiced in the West, causes severe pain to the animal.

Have you ever witnesses the halal slaughter of a calf?

I have. As soon as it's throat was cut, the animal was violently panicking in the metal restraint, chocking in it's own blood, over a period of about 5 minutes before it finally died.

I think Professor Wilhelm Schulze and his colleague Dr. Hazi are full of cow excrement. (Plus, from what you tell me, their research is also flawed)

Go to a slaughterhouse, ask to witness a halal slaughter of a calf. I'd be surprised if you ever eat meat again after that.
Max_! is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2007, 03:06 AM   #148
Max_!
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: E91
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe

Posts: 350
iTrader: (0)

Here is a YouTube movie of someone slaughtering a sheep halal:

(Trust me: don't watch it unless you believe god is good)

http://www.youtube.com/watchv=g9Ny5B...elated&search=

Takes about 3 minutes and - while it's calm for a short while at first - the sheep is kicking and struggeling right up until the movie ends as it slowly drains of blood.
Max_! is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2007, 04:01 AM   #149
elmariachi
Major
 
elmariachi's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW ///M Division
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Singapore

Posts: 1,323
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> concludes that Islamic slaughtering is the most humane method of slaughter and that captive bolt stunning, practiced in the West, causes severe pain to the animal.

Have you ever witnesses the halal slaughter of a calf?

I have. As soon as it's throat was cut, the animal was violently panicking in the metal restraint, chocking in it's own blood, over a period of about 5 minutes before it finally died.

I think Professor Wilhelm Schulze and his colleague Dr. Hazi are full of cow excrement. (Plus, from what you tell me, their research is also flawed)

Go to a slaughterhouse, ask to witness a halal slaughter of a calf. I'd be surprised if you ever eat meat again after that.
Well mate, i have nothing else to say. You have subdued all scientifiic and religious claims unto your own opinions(whats it called? Maxism?). The fact that you used the words think, cow excrement, etc clearly reflects your intellect on matters that is unbiased and done by non-muslims. If so, you shudnt be driving a BMW now since their research is flawed. Yes? Germans so to speak.

Ever seen, The last mohicans?? Remember when the British man was burning in fire by order of the tribes, and the his own man shot him in the head?? We are no different from animals. If you know you are going to die, are u telling me you would like to be stunned by a gun, only to watch your enemies slaughter you in gibs and pieces while you are half unconscious to feel the shrilling pain while you are tortured. Come on..spare me the BS. You got your anologies all in a fix mate. I also hope you arent Jew for that matter, as both the Jews and Muslims do not believe in stunning before slaugter.

One way to view the rather comprehensive legal system of the Jewish faith is spelled out in the paragraphs below. We feel this explanation may help others understand the degree of significance of these religious practices to those of the Jewish faith (Grunfeld, 1972).

"And ye shall be men of holy calling unto Me, and ye shall not eat any meat that is torn in the field" (Exodus XXII:30)

Anyway this link here seems to be less unbiased and also gives you a further insight into Kosher slaughtering.

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaugh.html
http://www.crescentlife.com/spiritua...s_in_islam.htm

A first step for Europe towards 'Halal' Macdonalds. - April 29th 2007

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/5682

Please dont ask me if i have not witnessed a slaughter before. I am a muslim and i have seen it myself. Its over within a few minutes. Its nothign gory and ludicrous unless you have a reason in believing so.

P.S - Posting a video on how a calf is killed is of utter irrelevance. Its to the extent you want to believe in the muslim way of slaughter which also brings me to another point. During the mad cow fiaso, tell me, which muslim country suffered the same fate? By the way, your link is dead just so you know you can reupload if you want to.

Last edited by elmariachi; 05-28-2007 at 04:43 AM.
elmariachi is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2007, 04:43 AM   #150
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

I have. As soon as it's throat was cut, the animal was violently panicking in the metal restraint, chocking in it's own blood, over a period of about 5 minutes before it finally died.

4. As the brain message (EEG) dropped to zero level, the heart was still pounding and the body convulsing vigorously (a reflex action of the spinal cord) driving a maximum amount of blood from the body thus resulting in hygienic meat for the consumer.

If you look at this part of the research, it shows that the brain message is ZERO while the heart still beats and the body convulses. The animal could be considered brain dead which means it would be completely unaware of what is happening and it would not feel anything. However, the heart is still beating and the body begins to convulse. This is the whole point because it drains the body COMPLETELY from blood. You say that it takes 5 minutes for the animal to die? yes that is true, but it is 5 minutes for the BODY to die, the brain is already gone and the animal does not feel any pain nor is aware of what is happening. So therefore this method still causes the least pain and also is the most hygenic as it drains the blood completely. Bro, you should really check how complex the matter of food in Islam is. We are not allowed to eat things that are considered impure. It is really specific. For example, we are not allowed to eat any sea animals except from fish, but the fish dies naturally and floats in the water then it is forbidden as it is impure. Check this website:

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/fhalal1.htm

And by the way I forgot to mention. The Holy Prophet said we are allowed blood from the liver or spleen, and the only dead meat we are allowed is fish and locust...
__________________

Last edited by hks786; 05-28-2007 at 05:08 AM.
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2007, 04:45 AM   #151
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Bro Max, please reply to my post above (#144) please try answer all the questions...
__________________
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2007, 07:44 AM   #152
Max_!
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: E91
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe

Posts: 350
iTrader: (0)

> link is dead

My bad, looks like I pasted the wrong one.


> If you know you are going to die, are u telling me you would like to be stunned by a gun, only to watch your enemies slaughter you in gibs and pieces while you are half unconscious to feel the shrilling pain while you are tortured.

A Captive Bullet destroys the brain. There's nothing left to feel pain with.

But keep in mind that the only differences between western and halal are:
- The animal does not need to face a particular direction
- The butcher doesn't have to shout anything
- The animal is stunned/killed before cutting on it

It's neck is cut and the blood drained like you would do in halal.

> As the brain message (EEG) dropped to zero level,

There are 4 arteries supplying the brain with blood. Halal slaughtering generally cuts two of them. It takes a big knife, considerable skill and a strong arm to cut all blood vessels supplying the brain, and then the head is basically hanging off the body by the spinal cord.

Even if you where to separate the head from the body completely, there is still enough blood in the animals brain to keep it conscious for several seconds, and with it's brain intact, it is capable of feeling pain throughout that time.

> You say that it takes 5 minutes for the animal to die? yes that is true, but it is 5 minutes for the BODY to die, the brain is already gone and the animal does not feel any pain nor is aware of what is happening

If you do not cut all four arteries - two at the front, two at the back, the animal will be conscious for several minutes.

If you do cut them all, the animal will still be conscious for longer than if it was properly stunned with a captive bullet or electric shock: *MINIUMUM* 15 seconds compared to less than one second for CPB or Shock.

> , etc clearly reflects your intellect on matters that is unbiased and done by non-muslims.

Any scientist in the field would know the CBP would cause a spike in the EEG and that this would not be indicative of pain since the areas of the brain responsible for registering pain no longer exist.

The bias of the study indicated is obvious.

> because it drains the body COMPLETELY from blood.

*real* scientific studies found no difference in the amount of blood drained from animals when they where humanely slaughtered (ie stunned) or halal.
(Same study also found no difference in meat quality, btw)

- Study conducted by Anil, M.H., Yesildre, T., Aksu, H., Matur, E., McKinstry, J.L., Erdogan, O., Hughes, S. and Mason, C. in 2004 in two Muslim abattoirs.

There's many more, but I figured you would accept studies conducted by muslims in a muslim abattoir more than the ramblings of infidels claiming to be scientists.

If removing as much blood as possible is the goal, you should use the hollow needle vacuum units used to hygenically collect blood for consumption. Nothing gets more blood out of a carcass.

You could throw it away later.

> body convulsing vigorously (a reflex action of the spinal cord)

In the youtube movie, you can clearly see the sheep reacting to the man rubbing the knife on it about a minute after it's throat is cut. This is not in line with your convulsion theory, convulsing is what you see later on; the rythmic motion of the limbs.

Allah did not tell Muhammed about electricity to run compressors for CBPs or electroshock stunners. I'm sure the intention of the rules in Quran was to keep you healthy, not to prevent innovation.

Most halal-marked chickens available in shops are electro-stunned before slaughter. The chain cutting machine used for slaughtering chickens can kill 3 chickens per second but it locks up if the chickens struggle so they have to be stunned. Most chickens are dead after the electroshock.

It's also impossible to praise Allah 3 times per second non-stop, so they just shout it once when they fire up the machine.

Anyways, I respect your belief and your right to slaughter animals any way you want. What I do not understand is why you feel you need to defend that right by citing suspect research.

> If so, you shudnt be driving a BMW now since their research is flawed. Yes? Germans so to speak.

There are many things wrong with BMWs (tramlining on RFTs for instance). But the Germans get more things right than the Americans or French.

I would have a japanese car, which are far superior in almost every way, if they didn't look so... plastic.
Max_! is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2007, 08:13 AM   #153
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

A Captive Bullet destroys the brain. There's nothing left to feel pain with.

It still wont drain the animal of blood though....

It's also impossible to praise Allah 3 times per second non-stop, so they just shout it once when they fire up the machine.

Anyways, I respect your belief and your right to slaughter animals any way you want. What I do not understand is why you feel you need to defend that right by citing suspect research.


Then that is simply wrong. We are commanded to slaughter animals in the name of Allah, so it is not an act of simple violence. It is more of making use of the animals he gave us to eat. Allah also commands us to slaughter animals manually, so let me tell you that these people are not following the Islamic way of slaughtering properlly. They have no excuse, because Allah tells us we must do it in the name of Allah so in other words you cannot as you so rightly said, say that 3 times in one second. Therefore, the animal would be haram (not permissable to eat).

As a side note, do you not respect or find it interesting how deeply the Quran speaks. I mean it covers really everything, okay it might not fit in with your lifestyle, but do you not appreciate the way of thinking it has? It takes everything seriously even something like hygeine...
__________________
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2007, 08:37 AM   #154
hks786
Major General
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK

Posts: 5,351
iTrader: (0)

Oh yeah, and please reply to my post #144
__________________
hks786 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:00 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST