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      05-20-2007, 02:47 PM   #45
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Brother Max, I see that you are really interested in religion, I mean this conversation could go on forever, but if you really are interested in Islam, then I can give you things to read which can (as briefly as possible) explain exactly what our main beliefs etc are...
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      05-20-2007, 03:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
> neither you, nor they, nor any foolish terroist have the knowledge required to understand such a wonderful book.

Who does?

If common man has no hope of understanding the Quran, who then shall guard their virtue and lead them to walk the prophet's path into Allah's grace? You? Osama?
Bro, the Quran can be understood quite easily, I mean I have two english versions here in my house. And if you study our religion you will see that in our society we have many religous leaders who guide us, and no I am not talking about Osama Bin Laden (that reference you made was totally unnecessary as we true muslims condemn Osama Bin Laden's wrongful actions and deeds), we have many leaders in our communities who spread the message really peacefully and they are really down to earth people who dont care about material things, they only care about the true path in Islam !
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      05-21-2007, 12:52 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
are really down to earth people who dont care about material things, they only care about the true path in Islam !
Oh, man, I was just about to convert since I saw the car. . . . JUST KIDDING!!!!
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      05-21-2007, 01:04 PM   #48
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Oh, man, I was just about to convert since I saw the car. . . . JUST KIDDING!!!!
lol
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      05-21-2007, 01:18 PM   #49
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...and we get the Pope-mobile!!!!!
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      05-21-2007, 01:21 PM   #50
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...and we get the Pope-mobile!!!!!
Its not my car lol, shh but
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      05-21-2007, 01:49 PM   #51
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Honey has bactericidal compounds in it. Bees use it to keep disease under control. People have known this for thousands of years, even if they did not know why it works. Muhammed might have known, but that knowledge was not given to him by Allah.

People today are not smarter than they where thousands of years ago. We just have access to more information which makes it easier to put 2 and 2 together and find out what exactly it is in honey that makes it kill some bacteria.

> the Quran can be understood quite easily,

Yet many people seem to believe it says something quite different from what you believe it says.

So either those people are really stupid or they're reading a different version or what's written is open to interpretation (or they simply can't read and believe what they're told)

This feature isn't limited to Islam. *ALL* religions have groups of people with different opinions about what that religion is about.

> but if you really are interested in Islam

What I'm really interested in is *why* people believe. The actual religion doesn't matter much since they all follow the same pattern.

I just don't get what it is that makes you push all the unanswered fundamental questions aside and accept something quite unbelievable instead.

Near as I can tell from what you've told me, Allah spoke to Muhammed, who was illiterate but memorized it word for word so someone else could write it down.

That requires absolute infallibility of both the Prophet and the writer. It also makes me wonder why Allah didn't give Muhammed the skills to write, or why he did not choose someone who could write to start with or why Allah needs anyone at all to write a book.

See, there it already starts to break down for me... And the questions keep piling up:

Are there spelling mistakes in the Quran? What would be the significance of a spelling mistake?

Forgive me if it's blasphemy, but I also can't see how you would tell a real prophet from a fake one. Take Sai Baba, for instance, who has many followers who will swear to have witnessed his many miracles proving he's legit. You can't all be right.

Really, I prefer the reassurance of one simple unanswered question: "What is the nature of the universe?" to the millions of questions that are raised by any religion out there attempting to answer that one simple question.

Perhaps that then is my religion.

What would it take for you to convert to my religion?
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      05-21-2007, 02:26 PM   #52
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Honey has bactericidal compounds in it. Bees use it to keep disease under control. People have known this for thousands of years, even if they did not know why it works. Muhammed might have known, but that knowledge was not given to him by Allah.

That is argueable, because we believe this is on of many things Prophet Muhammed (Peace Be Upon Him) has taught us. And of course his knowledge comes from God. There are many other miracles he has performed and they have been recorded. I mean, he has guided us completely from start to finish in how to live our lifes. We muslims also believe in "life after death" and "heaven and hell". Our holy prophet has given us signs of the last day, and many of them have been proven. I can give you the links to videos...

Yet many people seem to believe it says something quite different from what you believe it says.

That is the same in many religions. Look at Christians and Protestants. They differ in beliefs. However, our prophet again warned us of that! He knew we would divide. Regarding the Quran, in arabic words have different meaning, and of course the language style was old fashioned in those days so of COURSE it might be a little hard for everyone to intepret the same thing! please do not tell me everyone interprets even english in just one way. take a poem for instance, people will have different takes on the writers ideas etc.

What I'm really interested in is *why* people believe. The actual religion doesn't matter much since they all follow the same pattern.

I have studied many religions and I find a growing belief in Islam to be within me. My mother used to be Christian but now she is a very good muslim. I find great faults in many religions (no insult intended) but Islam is free of faults it really is, and I know I am not the BEST person to explain what questions you might have but I have very good knowledge of my religion and I read DAILY, about many miracles and discoveries in Islam!

Edit: I see what you mean about pattern, but really the first thing you have to understand is that there IS a god, then you have to ask yourself is god one? does he come in 3 parts for example? is there more than one god? The first step is to acknowledge the concept of god, then distinguish WHO god is and WHY he put us here and WHAT does he want us to do here and believe ?


Near as I can tell from what you've told me, Allah spoke to Muhammed, who was illiterate but memorized it word for word so someone else could write it down.

This was not needed. God wanted to show that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) didnt have to be the richest, cleverest etc. God revealed verses to him and he spoke these verses and then people recorded them. These verses are very useful to us. I mean you really have to read the Quran inside out in english to completely understand the beauty of the system it creates. It is a complete way of life.

Forgive me if it's blasphemy, but I also can't see how you would tell a real prophet from a fake one. Take Sai Baba, for instance, who has many followers who will swear to have witnessed his many miracles proving he's legit. You can't all be right.

I understand this completely. I think it is disgusting (in my own religion) when people create their own beliefs. This life, we believe, is a test. We are constantly being tested and many people however, even though they are muslims, they have a hidden agenda and they are complete fakes. You find this in all religions however. We believe these people will be severely punished for their falsehood...

What would it take for you to convert to my religion?

I would have to study your religion closely (I am speak generally) and see the main beliefs and see how YOU religion works as a complete way of life. I also have to see proofs which would show that this is indeed the RIGHT beliefs and not just a fairly good working system.

Edit: may I ask which religion (if any) do you follow? forgive me, but from the way you speak it sounds maybe as if you do not believe in ANY. I just want to be clear....
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      05-21-2007, 03:05 PM   #53
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> Really, I prefer the reassurance of one simple unanswered question: "What is the nature of the universe?" to the millions of questions that are raised by any religion out there attempting to answer that one simple question.

The growth of many more questions than are answered is the basis of a good scientific experiment. So I think you and I do share a portion of the same "religion" that search for truth and meaning in our life.

Again, DESPITE all the scientific knowledge I may gather, I still have Faith the JC is my ticket to those answers.

I in no way believe that Earth is the only source of life in the universe, it's just too big for that. But that is not incogruous with my beleif and the teachings in the bible, because Jesus sent his disciples (sp?) to preach not to the Jews, but to the Gentiles, meaning everyone who was not a Jew. Does that limit them to just this Earth, I think not.
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      05-21-2007, 03:19 PM   #54
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Really, I prefer the reassurance of one simple unanswered question: "What is the nature of the universe?" to the millions of questions that are raised by any religion out there attempting to answer that one simple question.

I forgot to mention that Islam is not an answer to anything, we believe that Allah ALONE created the universe and everthing in it. c'mon it didnt happen randomly, that is jus not possible. Islam is the way of life that god created for us....
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      05-21-2007, 03:26 PM   #55
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I in no way believe that Earth is the only source of life in the universe, it's just too big for that. But that is not incogruous with my beleif and the teachings in the bible, because Jesus sent his disciples (sp?) to preach not to the Jews, but to the Gentiles, meaning everyone who was not a Jew. Does that limit them to just this Earth, I think not.

But the beauty of Islam is that you do not need to be concerned with other forms of life. We believe that you must understand Allah created us from Adam and Eve and he also created plants and animals that we must respect as his creation. Of course there are other wonders beyond Earth, that is merely the power of Allah. Even though there might be life on other planets, it wont affect us since only humans will be judged when the day of ressurection comes. Again animals and plants will not be judged.
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      05-21-2007, 03:26 PM   #56
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> The first step is to acknowledge the concept of god

Ah, see, that's me out right there.

For some reason, the concept of a god is as likely to me as the concept of no god is to you.

> This life, we believe, is a test

A test for what? A test of your virtue? Does it take a lifetime for god to decide if your virtuous?

What of people that die in childhood? Was their test easier? What if you do dangerous sports and die, is that, like, cheating?

Are there ways of dying early that are more virtuous?

> may I ask which religion (if any) do you follow? forgive me, but from the way you speak it sounds maybe as if you do not believe in ANY.

None whatsoever. Not even atheism.

> I still have Faith the JC is my ticket to those answers.

The reason why you believe Jesus is your ticket and not Mohammed...
And the reason why hks786 believes Mohammed is his ticket and not Jesus...
That is the reason why I think there are no tickets.
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      05-21-2007, 03:28 PM   #57
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Doesn't matter what we think. They are at war with us. They may be a small percentage of extremists, but they are well organized and well funded. To this point, peacful Muslims (the overwhelming majority) do not seem to be part of the solution. Ergo....

Instead of bitching about their rights to pray in airports and scare the shit out of people getting on a plane, it would really help if they were trying to do more to show active disgust for the acts of these terrorists. Unless they aren't really disgusted...

But also keep in mind that the U.S. Government NEEDS us to be AFRAID of SOMETHING at all times. That's how they keep us from focusing on their excesses and horrible way of governing. Would you fire your maid three days before a big dinner party you're giving, even if she does bad work? Nope. You'll think "ok, but after that she's gone". Our government makes sure that there is always a dinner party coming up.
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      05-21-2007, 03:50 PM   #58
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For some reason, the concept of a god is as likely to me as the concept of no god is to you.

I completely understand you, right now, the obstacle between us is that you do no believe in god and I do...

A test for what? A test of your virtue? Does it take a lifetime for god to decide if your virtuous?

What of people that die in childhood? Was their test easier? What if you do dangerous sports and die, is that, like, cheating?


In Islam we believe that Allah only judges you when you have matured, of course it is unfair to judge children when they are not competent to understand morality. Children, we believe that if they die they go straight to heaven and are not punished in any way. And of course it does not take god a lifetime to judge you. Allah knows what happens before it happens. However, he gives man FREE WILL to make his own choices ! and noone can cheat fate, Allahs plan prevails all plans. We believe that if Allah wants something to happen, it WILL happen !

I still have Faith the JC is my ticket to those answers.

I have many reasons for not believe Jesus to be God. I find it hard to believe that God and his son would be part of one being. I find it hard to believe the God's OWN son would have to die for us to gain forgiveness. I find that to be heavily unfair that someone should die for someone to be forgiven. I mean God has complete power to make this decision. Yes, sacrifices can be made, in Islam we believe in this. But sacrifice God's son? no this cannot be true in our beliefs. There is actually a very interesting video about this and I could give you the link for it, if you listened to it I am SURE you would what I believe to be flaws in Christianity. Again, no insult intended!
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      05-21-2007, 04:03 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
>
For some reason, the concept of a god is as likely to me as the concept of no god is to you.
That there in might be your struggle in life.. to see the signs. Even the lead scientist on the Genome project admits that things are far to perfectly put together to just randomly have fallen in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
>
A test for what? A test of your virtue? Does it take a lifetime for god to decide if your virtuous?

What of people that die in childhood? Was their test easier? What if you do dangerous sports and die, is that, like, cheating?
Thats right, to test who is good in deeds and who is bad in deeds.
Some people have a long life, where they are given many chances to sin, and many chances to repent. Some people are given short lives. Its all Gods will.
God has said that he is the most just. On the final day, justice will be served. No one will be short changed, no one will be miscounted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
>
The reason why you believe Jesus is your ticket and not Mohammed...
And the reason why hks786 believes Mohammed is his ticket and not Jesus...
That is the reason why I think there are no tickets.
According to Islam , on the final day all prophets will stand with thier followers behind them. Some will have many, some will have just a few, and some will be standing alone becuase no one wanted to listen to them.
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      05-21-2007, 04:04 PM   #60
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Doesn't matter what we think. They are at war with us. They may be a small percentage of extremists, but they are well organized and well funded. To this point, peacful Muslims (the overwhelming majority) do not seem to be part of the solution. Ergo....

Instead of bitching about their rights to pray in airports and scare the shit out of people getting on a plane, it would really help if they were trying to do more to show active disgust for the acts of these terrorists. Unless they aren't really disgusted...

But also keep in mind that the U.S. Government NEEDS us to be AFRAID of SOMETHING at all times. That's how they keep us from focusing on their excesses and horrible way of governing. Would you fire your maid three days before a big dinner party you're giving, even if she does bad work? Nope. You'll think "ok, but after that she's gone". Our government makes sure that there is always a dinner party coming up.

I think it is very unfair that "peaceful muslims" can be judged like that. How can it be our fault at all? I do not think it is fair that you say we do not condemn terrorism enough, we have condemned it but as you say terrorists are "well funded and organised" what can our words do if armies have yet to stop them? I find your comments to be totally unfair. What if I disregared YOUR rights at an airport, how would you feel? would you feel it was fair if I said "quit bitching?"

However, I do agree about the upcoming "dinner party". Bush and Blair in my opinion are huge terrorists but many people wont see them as terrorists as they dont run around with beards and AK47s, they seem like perfectly civilised people. WRONG. I know people will disagree but they are infact terrorists. I know for a fact that the intentions for the Iraq war were not good and infact it has been proven that a LOT of people benefited from oil etc. I feel the problem in the world is that people cannot identify the enemy. I feel muslims are blamed (yes, even the peaceful ones.) and many people like America, Britain and Israel get away with so much. I was just watching a documentary literally minutes ago about jewish settlers illegally taking over homes in palestinian settlements, but the Israeli Army defends the illegal jewish settlers and deny the rightful owners from accessing their homes. I mean this is terrorising rightful owners of homes, but who really cares? would I hear Bush or Blair calling the Israeli Army terrorists? Hell no....
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      05-21-2007, 04:06 PM   #61
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Is there really that high of a percentage of peaceful muslims? There seems to be many absolutes in Islam that prevents the people of that religion to live peacefully. There may be a small sect of terrorists fighting the western world. But there are also militant muslims in SE Asia. There are groups of muslims in Iraq fighting amoungst each other. There are also those in Lebanon that have yet to lay down their arms in favor of peace. But those people are at the fore front of this debate. There are many more muslims out there that support their cause.

I spent some time in a mosque listening and learning just out of curiosity when I was younger. What was disturbing was their explanation of how Islam spread throughout the world.
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      05-21-2007, 04:08 PM   #62
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peacful Muslims (the overwhelming majority) do not seem to be part of the solution. Ergo....
Please buddy, go check some sources. So many inside tips from muslims have lead to arrests and foiled terror plots.
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      05-21-2007, 04:12 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by 561design View Post
Is there really that high of a percentage of peaceful muslims? There seems to be many absolutes in Islam that prevents the people of that religion to live peacefully. There may be a small sect of terrorists fighting the western world. But there are also militant muslims in SE Asia. There are groups of muslims in Iraq fighting amoungst each other. There are also those in Lebanon that have yet to lay down their arms in favor of peace. But those people are at the fore front of this debate. There are many more muslims out there that support their cause.

I spent some time in a mosque listening and learning just out of curiosity when I was younger. What was disturbing was their explanation of how Islam spread throughout the world.
I see that you speak of the muslims in Iraq fighting. Well lets look at this example. Did you know that there have been cases where American and British troops have disguised themselves as muslims and then open fire on other muslims? this was even on the BBC website, If I had the link I would of posted it....
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      05-21-2007, 04:15 PM   #64
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Not all terrorists are Muslims, any fanatic of any religion can be a terrorist. F@ck them all. You have to feel sorry for the innocent casualties but there will always be death of innocent people as long as there is terrorism. So far there are not too many terrorist acts in the U.S. you dont see buses exploding in LA with 50 people on them 3 times a week, i think leaders like Bush keep that from happening here so everyone can drive their bmw's in peace. You shouldnt call him a terrorist.
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      05-21-2007, 04:16 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 561design View Post
Is there really that high of a percentage of peaceful muslims? There seems to be many absolutes in Islam that prevents the people of that religion to live peacefully. There may be a small sect of terrorists fighting the western world. But there are also militant muslims in SE Asia. There are groups of muslims in Iraq fighting amoungst each other. There are also those in Lebanon that have yet to lay down their arms in favor of peace. But those people are at the fore front of this debate. There are many more muslims out there that support their cause.

I spent some time in a mosque listening and learning just out of curiosity when I was younger. What was disturbing was their explanation of how Islam spread throughout the world.
SE Asia - im not sure about
Iraq - is politcal, the fight is for political power, thats what happens when someone comes in and overthrows the government - w/ some terrorists in the mix against the U.S.
Lebanon - are fighting to get thier land BACK and be free of Isreali occupation.

I dont see anything wrong with those people fighting for what is theirs.. but in Islam, the rules and guidelines for fighting are clearly defined. Innocent lives, women, childeren, etc.. are not to be harmed. - and thats where a lot of "muslims" are lost. There dosn't need to be a ton of interpretation of the Quran to get that, its very clearly stated.

And I dont know what mosque you went to, Go see how other religions spread if you want a horror story.
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      05-21-2007, 04:18 PM   #66
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Not all terrorists are Muslims, any fanatic of any religion can be a terrorist. F@ck them all. You have to feel sorry for the innocent casualties but there will always be death of innocent people as long as there is terrorism. So far there are not too many terrorist acts in the U.S. you dont see buses exploding in LA with 50 people on them 3 times a week, i think leaders like Bush keep that from happening here so everyone can drive their bmw's in peace. You shouldnt call him a terrorist.

I see what you mean, but what about the terror he has created in Iraq? I'm very sure even though Saddam killed lots of people, Iraq was NOT in this state that it is in today. Troops is Iraq have stirred the violence and the Iraq war has made things WORSE not better. Bush is not daft, he only helps where he can benefit. I do not see him feeding Africa to such an extent he raises huge finance and sends troops there to stop people going hungry.
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