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      06-20-2007, 09:17 AM   #309
hks786
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Eh, it dosn't matter.. some people wouldn't be satified until their names and birthdays would be predicted before them. It's true the prophet PBUH spoke about it a lot. He really tried his best to warn. I was listening to this cd set about that.. it went through all of the minor signs first.. a lot of those have happened already. I think its the behaviour of the people that is really amazing.. the killing, poverty, and then sex/alchohol is rampant - its supposed to be a lot worse at the end... its pretty sad.


I know, I've seen all the listed minor and major signs. It's really scary
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      06-20-2007, 10:56 AM   #310
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Define "sweet water" to me. I've always interpreted it as fresh water when used in conjunction with sea water. Why was it not written down At the time it was intuitively obvious, and only "scholars" would have any reason to see it? The farmers/fisherman who could really use the info already knew from being on the rivers? I don't know enough geography to know if Egyptians plyed the waters where the Nile enters the (which ocean?) They were so preoccupied with the flood stages as it related to their food supply?

Iron falling to the Earth. Let's see, that happens in the sense we seem to be discussing in the form of meteorites, right? So the prophet (or one of his companions/followers) sees a fiery object crash through the sky, hit the ground. (Hopefully) AFTER it cools off, they pick it up and bring it to him. "Hey, it's made of that really neat stuff we use to make spears, what's it called, iron? Allah is sending down protection from the heavens, praise be to Allah" Again, TOTALLY said with respect. Is this a divine revelation to the prophet only, or again an observation?

Forgive me, I again admit my ignorance on the specific details, but those who occupied the middle east during this time were FAR advanced in their observation of the earth and heavens and mathematics and "science" than the rest of the world at the time. They had some more leasure time since were blessed with abundance of water/food in the areas of the rivers, and had that luxury to look around, while Europe was in the dark ages and running from boogey men that killed millions.

We keep getting hung up on "uneducated" Please explain to me what you would consider the source of education 1400 years ago? Would not living 63 years (that's an OLD man back then!) beget education? Maybe he wasn't a graduate or scholar, but he was highly "educated", IMHO.

Bible: Yes, I consider it God's word, but I KNOW it is God's word FILTERED BY THE HAND OF (greedy/untrustworthy) MEN over the millenia that seperate me from Jesus. To my FAITH, Jesus IS God IS the Holy spirit, even though he is the son of God and sent the Holy spirit into the world. Mysterious, very difficult to prove, or understand. But that's why he/they are God.

I seriously doubt that what I call God and you call Allah are not one in the same when we get to heaven and al is revealed. We are brothers drinking in the love of our master. What I think is a bit different in our source of information and inspiration is that I belevie that Jesus is the son of God/ is God, and is the true source of access to heaven. The prophet, no disrespect, is still a man whom filtered the word of Allah over 23 years to get it down to 6000 verses. Jesus, who got it straight from the source because he is one with the source, narrowed it down to 8 word (at least in English): Love one another as I have loved you. The rest of the bible is used as a means to communicate that he is indeed the messiah and the chosen lamb of God. God sent Jesus to take human form to open the gates to heaven for all as a sacrifice. He felt all that I may feel as a man, yet STILL remained without sin against God, to be an example for how I COULD live my life if I gave all to God.
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      06-20-2007, 01:44 PM   #311
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> Then you forget other hadiths which state that

You said hadits that conflict with Quran should be ignored.

> You say that “barriers” in sea water have always existed. However, that still does not answer the question “How could the Holy Prophet (pbuh) know this 1400 years ago?”

You can clearly see these barriers in the nile river - where the blue and white nile meet. You can also see (and taste) these barriers everywhere a fresh water river flows into the sea. I'm sure that if you look, you'll find references that predate Muhammed's birth.

Muhammed does not explain these barriers, merely mentions they exist (probably by the grace of Allah)

> there is such a huge number of divisions in Islam

I would think Allah would make his followers stand united against evil, but it seems they're more divided now than ever.

> It is not Allah nor his messengers fault if Islam is not practised properly.

Since Allah is omnipotent, everything that comes to pass is his doing.

> Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi-Arabia are NOT perfect Islamic states. Infact, all 3 of them are hugely corrupt.

Do you think it possible to have a perfect Islamic state, and would you want to live there?

> The long history of humanity did not witness women prophets.

Oh, that's so false, I don't know where to begin to flog you for posting that.

The last prophet in the bible was a woman. There's literally thousands of them scattered around the various religions.

I'm not sure about Islam, but surely there must be at least one?

> And so are you implying that athiests who do not rely on God at all have perfect marriages? Cuz thats crazy if you think so..

I've got a perfect marriage. It's surprisingly easy to be happy when you're an atheist and have one less god to please.

> so therfore someone like me for example who is not very patient

You don't need to be patient to be happy. Or rather, patience is not an effort if you're happy.

> their children disrespect them

Usually that's because the parents have no self-respect.

> I pray to be at his level one day

Oh, you will get there, just keep reading those pro-islam websites.

> your answers are in there,

Alas, no.

> the Muslims you know, and the ones you have heard of and seen in the news are not very good indicators.

The muslims I know speak as you do, perhaps a bit more nuanced. The ones I see on the news are just really messed up - that's why they're in the news.

> We have access to books and the internet. Google is your friend

So, how many sites hostile or critical towards Islam have you visited lately?

Google may be your friend, but you won't find truth if all you look for is confirmation.
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      06-20-2007, 01:49 PM   #312
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> Uneducated

He hang out with the most educated men of the age - unless he was seriously thick, some of that will have rubbed off.

> the end is near. I can assure you that.

No, it's not. Trust me: There's nothing man can do that will end the universe. Allah himself would have a hard time ending it.
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      06-20-2007, 02:07 PM   #313
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I don't know enough geography to know if Egyptians plyed the waters where the Nile enters the (which ocean?) They were so preoccupied with the flood stages as it related to their food supply?

But Egyptians recorded a few other things in science.

So the prophet (or one of his companions/followers) sees a fiery object crash through the sky, hit the ground. (Hopefully) AFTER it cools off, they pick it up and bring it to him. "Hey, it's made of that really neat stuff we use to make spears, what's it called, iron?

I know you are saying this with respect, but I still feel it’s another assumption. We don’t know if he witnesses any meteorite collisions. Just like when Max said that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) could have dived into the water to discover it’s layers, and he could have seen comets to know they are made of ice etc. I find it farfetched to believe that he observed all these things. AND if people told him about these things, which you refer to this as his “education”, then why did people before the Holy Prophet’s time not make these observations? And why are they not recorded anywhere apart from the Quran?

Forgive me, I again admit my ignorance on the specific details, but those who occupied the middle east during this time were FAR advanced in their observation of the earth and heavens and mathematics and "science" than the rest of the world at the time.

This is correct. BUT not all things that Arabs observed were formed into science. For example, the Quran says the Earth is the shape of an ostrich’s egg. This is true because the Earth is flat at it’s poles. The significance here is that IF other people at the Holy Prophet’s time observed this, then why was it ONLY recorded in the Quran?

We keep getting hung up on "uneducated" Please explain to me what you would consider the source of education 1400 years ago?

It’s not so much that he was uneducated. It’s more to do with the fact that he couldn’t read/write. This means if he was in the company of people, he could NOT write down what they say. It also means that he could not copy from other texts. PLUS the information in the Quran was not yet known to mankind and DIDN’T appear in any other texts of the time.

Bible: Yes, I consider it God's word, but I KNOW it is God's word FILTERED BY THE HAND OF (greedy/untrustworthy) MEN over the millenia that seperate me from Jesus.

Allah promised that the Quran would not change. To this day the Quran has still not change. People may interpret the Quran wrongly but the actual Arabic has NEVER changed.

I seriously doubt that what I call God and you call Allah are not one in the same when we get to heaven and al is revealed.

I am glad that you accept there is a God. There is God, so in that way we believe in the same God. But you believe God is in 3 parts. We don’t believe that.

The prophet, no disrespect, is still a man whom filtered the word of Allah over 23 years to get it down to 6000 verses.

In my opinion – no disrespect meant – I feel that Jesus has been made to seem like an ordinary man in some ways. Firstly, Christians produce drawings etc of Jesus. We do not produce anything of the sort of out Prophets. We do not make pictures of Allah either because we can encompass what he looks like in our wildest dreams. I also feel that the relationship between Jesus and God was strange. Jesus resisted God’s plan in which he had to die for the sins of the world. “Can there not be any other way?”. However, God followed his plan to the end. In Islam we believe no soul shall be punished for another, and on the Day of Judgement every soul shall earn what it reaped and not even a “muster seed” will be not held account for.

Oh yeah, and regarding 23 years to reveal the verses, I have already explained the wisdom behind this.

The rest of the bible is used as a means to communicate that he is indeed the messiah and the chosen lamb of God.

Speaking of the “lamb of God”, I would like to make another point. In Christianity a goat or sheep were used to take the sins of the people away. The priest would place the sins of the people on the animal and send it into the wild, hence taking the sins of the people away. This is where the term “scapegoat” came from, as the goat took away the sins of the people, it carried the blame. So if this simple ritual could be used to gain forgiveness, why did Jesus have to die at all?

yet STILL remained without sin against God, to be an example for how I COULD live my life if I gave all to God.

Speaking of leading an example. Jesus did not eat pork, Muslims too follow this example. The bible also teaches us that Jesus prayed with his forehead on the ground, Muslims too follow this. The bible and drawings teach us that Jesus kept a beard, Muslims too follow this belief. In Jesus’s time noone worshipped the cross or had any crosses in churches etc. However, this tradition crept into the religion AFTER his death. Christians did not drink of his “blood” or eat of his “flesh” until after he died. This all implies that the religion has been distorted and changed. Sorry, I too say this with the upmost respect.
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      06-20-2007, 02:28 PM   #314
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You said hadits that conflict with Quran should be ignored.

Oh yes, you should. But this is only the case in which they say completely scientifically untrue things and contradict with the Quran. However, if we have difficulty in understand the Islamic Law, we can refer to Hadiths to be sure of anything. I don’t really see what the problem is.

You can clearly see these barriers in the nile river - where the blue and white nile meet.

The Quran does not refer to the Nile, it refers to where sweet and salt water meet in any oceans. Not just the Nile.

Muhammed does not explain these barriers, merely mentions they exist (probably by the grace of Allah)

Is the Quran called “Oceanology” or is it called “The Holy Quran”?

I would think Allah would make his followers stand united against evil, but it seems they're more divided now than ever.

Our Holy Prophet also warned us of this and told us the specific number of divisions in Islam. This is wisdom behind the 2nd coming of Prophet Isa (AS) and Imam Mehdi (pbuh)

Since Allah is omnipotent, everything that comes to pass is his doing.

Yes, but Allah gave us free will

Do you think it possible to have a perfect Islamic state, and would you want to live there?

And avoid the evils of this world? Of course I would want to live in such a place. My favourite place to stay would always have to be Medinah Shareef as this is where our Holy Prophet (pbuh) is.

I'm not sure about Islam, but surely there must be at least one?

No. There are none.

I've got a perfect marriage. It's surprisingly easy to be happy when you're an atheist and have one less god to please.

You might have a healthy marriage. But there will always be issues that you cannot control. Such as, I presume your wife does not cover herself 100% i.e. headscarf, loose clothing etc. This could attract people while you are not around, and I’m sure you know where it could lead. Not to mention that a religion has to work for everyone. Whilst you and your wife have a good marriage, it does not mean that everyone else is strong like you. Islam works for everyone.

Oh, you will get there, just keep reading those pro-islam websites.

Not true, I also show great interest in other religious texts. See my previous post.

So, how many sites hostile or critical towards Islam have you visited lately?

Many. That is irrelevant because there is still a huge amount of material which supports Islam.

He hang out with the most educated men of the age - unless he was seriously thick, some of that will have rubbed off.

I have already discussed this.


No, it's not. Trust me: There's nothing man can do that will end the universe. Allah himself would have a hard time ending it.

Yes it is. The exact time is only known by Allah but indeed this Earth will not last forever. The Quran says that the Sun will only operate for a designated time. Indeed science tells us this too.
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      06-20-2007, 02:38 PM   #315
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> why did people before the Holy Prophet’s time not make these observations? And why are they not recorded anywhere apart from the Quran?

Oh yes they did and yes they did.

The term 'meteor' comes from the Greek meteoron. Around 7% of meteors contain (or are) iron. The Greek gave meteors their name and put their possible iron content in writing before Muhammed was born.

Regardless of that, the fact that iron can fall from the sky was well known - there were even religions that worshipped iron meteors, even in the the pre-columbian Americas.

> Christians produce drawings etc of Jesus.

Yes, but really poor ones - he always looks like a tall, long-haired sickly-pale swedish guy instead of the short, curly-haired north-african he was.

> why did Jesus have to die at all?

The Romans nailed him to a cross because he was a terrorist.
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      06-20-2007, 02:53 PM   #316
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> This could attract people while you are not around, and I’m sure you know where it could lead

Yeah - hahaha - that person would not be in a happy place. My wife is not exactly helpless.

Plus, I don't care what you believe, I will hold you personally responsible for your irresistible urges even in the presence of naked women begging you to have intercourse with them. (consequence of Free Will, remember?)

We had a very long relationship (and a lot of sex) before we decided to get married.

And if she's sick of me and she want's out - though it would make me really sad - I will accept that.

> but indeed this Earth will not last forever.

True, but we're not bound to this earth or this solar system.
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      06-20-2007, 03:07 PM   #317
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Oh yes they did and yes they did.

Then I would ask, what about all the other things I have shown you? I have uploaded around 70 word docs.

Yes, but really poor ones - he always looks like a tall, long-haired sickly-pale swedish guy instead of the short, curly-haired north-african he was.

It doesn’t matter. The fact is we muslims do not guess what Allah looks like, and we create no pictures of our Holy Prophet (saw)

The Romans nailed him to a cross because he was a terrorist.

You fail to see my point. My point is that IF he is God’s son, why did he have to die for everyone else’s sins. Despite the many plots against our Holy Prophet and all the wars he faced, Allah did not allow anyone to take his life. Even when the Wahabbi’s plotted against destroying his grave, it did not happen. Allah will not let it happen. No matter what happens on this Earth, it will not happen.

Yeah - hahaha - that person would not be in a happy place. My wife is not exactly helpless.

That’s good, but a religion has to work for everyone. Not just your wife.

Plus, I don't care what you believe, I will hold you personally responsible for your irresistible urges even in the presence of naked women begging you to have intercourse with them. (consequence of Free Will, remember?)

Its not just about the actions that could take place. It’s about the principle. I think the thought of someone else seeing my wife is disgusting, and the idea of someone seeing me apart from my wife is also disgusting.

And if she's sick of me and she want's out - though it would make me really sad - I will accept that.

Islam permits divorce. Even if some countries make it hard and claim to be “Islamic Republics”. I also know that some people consider divorced women as “used goods”. This is not Islamic at all. Our Holy Prophet (saw) married a woman who divorced his adopted son.

True, but we're not bound to this earth or this solar system.

Islam teaches us that the last of the human race will reside in the Earth and Allah will end the Earth when it is time for the Day of Judgment. I also ask you how did the Holy Prophet (saw) know the sun would only operate for a certain period of time?
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      06-20-2007, 03:07 PM   #318
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You might have a healthy marriage. But there will always be issues that you cannot control. Such as, I presume your wife does not cover herself 100% i.e. headscarf, loose clothing etc. This could attract people while you are not around, and I’m sure you know where it could lead. Not to mention that a religion has to work for everyone. Whilst you and your wife have a good marriage, it does not mean that everyone else is strong like you. Islam works for everyone.
Castration works even better than 100% of clothing or Islam!
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      06-20-2007, 03:09 PM   #319
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HKS,

Just come clean -- who is sponsoring your acitivites on this forum? Allah directly or some group of his zelous followers?
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      06-20-2007, 03:10 PM   #320
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Castration works even better than 100% of clothing or Islam!

Look at the above post.

Max:

Plus, I don't care what you believe, I will hold you personally responsible for your irresistible urges even in the presence of naked women begging you to have intercourse with them. (consequence of Free Will, remember?)

Me:

Its not just about the actions that could take place. It’s about the principle. I think the thought of someone else seeing my wife is disgusting, and the idea of someone seeing me apart from my wife is also disgusting.
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      06-20-2007, 03:13 PM   #321
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And what's the problem with eating pork?? Why is it ok for poor cows to end up in our stomach while pigs are immune from that route?
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      06-20-2007, 03:14 PM   #322
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HKS,

Just come clean -- who is sponsoring your acitivites on this forum? Allah directly or some group of his zelous followers?



Not all of us have hidden agendas, I dont really care if you think otherwise. You complain when terrorists bomb places in the name of Islam and now you're moaning at me for having a friendly dialogue with unbelievers? make your mind up. Anyway, like I said before, I'm not harming you or breaking rules...
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      06-20-2007, 03:16 PM   #323
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And what's the problem with eating pork?? Why is it ok for poor cows to end up in our stomach while pigs are immune from that route?

The reason is to do with pigs being impure...
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      06-20-2007, 03:16 PM   #324
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Me:

Its not just about the actions that could take place. It’s about the principle. I think the thought of someone else seeing my wife is disgusting, and the idea of someone seeing me apart from my wife is also disgusting.
ok, now it's clear. instead of feeling love and compassion for all other human beings (as every religious person should), all you have is hatred and aggression triggered by an anomalous desire to own another human being to the point that others cannot even look at her! That is sick, my friend.
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      06-20-2007, 03:19 PM   #325
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And what's the problem with eating pork?? Why is it ok for poor cows to end up in our stomach while pigs are immune from that route?

The reason is to do with pigs being impure...
And why are they impure? Oh, I guess the famous dialogue from Pulp Fiction provides a capsule summary on that. It also shows the ridiculousness of the "impurity" concept.
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      06-20-2007, 03:20 PM   #326
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Go to Gaza and scream out on a street corner, "I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian" and see what happens. That's Islamic Law working at it's best!
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      06-20-2007, 03:21 PM   #327
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ok, now it's clear. instead of feeling love and compassion for all other human beings (as every religious person should), all you have is hatred and aggression triggered by an anomalous desire to own another human being to the point that others cannot even look at her! That is sick, my friend.

I have already said why it's wrong for people to see her. It can lead to many things. We muslims also feel that it is wrong to show beauty to anyone except from your husband or wife.

Anyway, why does the feeling of love for other humans get cancelled? Our Holy Prophet's wife stood in different rooms from companions of the Prophet and spoke to them. For example, some said that the Holy Prophet said "3 things are bad omens, and women are 1 of them". However, the Holy Prophet (pbuh)'s wife explained that he was saying that, that was the opinion of a people from a certain place. Therefore, the Holy Prophet's wife had love to explain her husband's words in the correct context and she also gave advice BUT she never revealed her beauty...
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      06-20-2007, 03:22 PM   #328
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And why are they impure? Oh, I guess the famous dialogue from Pulp Fiction provides a capsule summary on that. It also shows the ridiculousness of the "impurity" concept.

It has been scientifically proven that eating the flesh of swine is harmful...
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      06-20-2007, 03:24 PM   #329
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Go to Gaza and scream out on a street corner, "I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian" and see what happens. That's Islamic Law working at it's best!

Thats not Islam. Our Holy Prophet (pbuh) taught us that we should even look after our neighbours. We should not have full stomachs while our neighbours starve. He made the point in saying that this is the case REGARDLESS of your neighbour's religion. Perhaps you are not aware of the crusades when Saladin sent food etc to his enemy when he was ill?
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      06-20-2007, 03:35 PM   #330
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And why are they impure? Oh, I guess the famous dialogue from Pulp Fiction provides a capsule summary on that. It also shows the ridiculousness of the "impurity" concept.

It has been scientifically proven that eating the flesh of swine is harmful...

All I heard is that eating too much beef (especially rare) can lead to a colon cancer. That's a fact.

Bacon tastes good!
Pork chops taste good!
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