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      06-15-2007, 04:07 PM   #265
Badmaash
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I just got married myself and I have been looking into what my religion says about how I should treat my wife.. And all I know is that she has a lot of rights over me and that I really have to strive hard to please her and be a good husband. Now in return, she should listen to me - as I should listen to her. Its a very fair arrangment - I can't be oppressive/abusive becuase it is clearly forbidden. Not that I would want to be... but thats another classic case in Islam where muslims who don't really care about the religion use it oppress and dominate their wives. You can't expect your wife to "obey" you if you are not a kind and just husband.. and the word 'obey' doesn't mean - be your slave...
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      06-15-2007, 04:31 PM   #266
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I just got married myself and I have been looking into what my religion says about how I should treat my wife..

That is wise. Husband/wife relations are important in our lives.

And all I know is that she has a lot of rights over me and that I really have to strive hard to please her and be a good husband.

True

Now in return, she should listen to me - as I should listen to her.

True

Its a very fair arrangment - I can't be oppressive/abusive becuase it is clearly forbidden.

True

Not that I would want to be... but thats another classic case in Islam where muslims who don't really care about the religion use it oppress and dominate their wives.

This is a very sensitive issue. Many muslims have distorted Islamic teachings and used them to be cruel towards their wives. May Allah guide these terrible husbands and save their wives from the abuse they suffer from.

You can't expect your wife to "obey" you if you are not a kind and just husband.. and the word 'obey' doesn't mean - be your slave...

You are 100% correct. A marriage works both ways, it's a partnership - never one sided. You are right when you say "obey" doesnt mean slave. In Islam, a husband should follow Islam properly and he should make sure his wife too follows Islam properly. The husband should also "obey" his wife too, especially if the husband is doing something which is wrong. For example, if a husband wishes to have anal sex with his wife, then she should warn him that terrible things happen to people that do not fear Allah, and he should not commit this sin. Her husband should take heed of the warning and stop what he is about to do...
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      06-16-2007, 02:51 AM   #267
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> I would ask how did the Quran know when sight and hearing etc was gained by the baby?

You don't have children do you? After a few months, unborn babies start to react to sound and light while still in the womb. I'm sure Muhammed, with his many wives, managed to figure this out without Allah's help.

> Now in return, she should listen to me

4:34 "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great"

If I was a muslim, I could beat the crap out of my disobedient wife with permission of Allah. (preferably avoiding the face) Certainly, it's this way in Iran, the model Islamic state muslims strive to live in.

Sorry, man, but the more I look into it, the more it appears the Quran has more excuses for men to do as they wish than knowledge for humanity to reach enlightenment.

Islam also stifles innovation. It took one of the most enlightened and prosperous areas in the history of men back into the dark ages while the rest of the world raced past.
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      06-16-2007, 03:38 AM   #268
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You don't have children do you? After a few months, unborn babies start to react to sound and light while still in the womb. I'm sure Muhammed, with his many wives, managed to figure this out without Allah's help.

No, bro. My argument does NOT lie on the fact that the Holy Prophet mentioned the gain of sight/hearing etc. There are others verses which I would like you to explain the purpose of:

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."

"Then We developed out of it another creature."

"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."


If you look at post #243, you can see the order these verse appear. Please tell me what the purpose of these verses are.

If I was a muslim, I could beat the crap out of my disobedient wife with permission of Allah.

Not true. Look:

"Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them..."
Qur'an (2:231)


it's this way in Iran, the model Islamic state muslims strive to live in.

There is no perfect Islamic state in the world today. Even Saudi Arabia is not perfect (that’s an understatement and I’m not going to go into why it’s not perfect). The problem is, Muslims and non-muslims fail to understand the Shari’ah law properly. This gives non-muslims the reason to criticise Islam and make it look bad.

the more it appears the Quran has more excuses for men to do as they wish than knowledge for humanity to reach enlightenment..

Excuses for men? Bro, we Muslims are not even allowed to have anal sex with our wives, or have sex with them during menstruation! Even when we do have sex with our wives, we are not allowed to have it before kissing our wives! Our Holy Prophet gave at least 60ways, to keep the love of our wives, and keep them happy. See my next post.

Islam also stifles innovation. It took one of the most enlightened and prosperous areas in the history of men back into the dark ages while the rest of the world raced past.

Islam is the true and complete way of life. Many of you unbelievers translate the Quran and Hadiths wrongly and then use it to criticise Islam. Many Muslims also translate the Quran and Hadiths wrongly and use it to their advantage. This means, a lot of people are not following Islam correctly.

Today there is an event on at our mosque. We are inviting Muslims and non-muslims to come to this open day so that we can show the unbelievers that Islam is PEACE. We want to take the thought of terrorism out of their minds.

Another last point I would like to make, is that the Quran is still 100% scientifically correct. I have shown you many verses but you have yet to prove any wrong. On the contrary, the Quran presents information that wasn’t known to mankind at the time.

For example, the round shape of the Earth. You say the Holy Prophet could have observed it from the horizon. What an assumption. Not to mention the fact that NOONE else before the Holy Prophet made this observation. What a coincidence, that an uneducated, illiterate man seen this and noone else before him made this observation.

Lets not forget you say that the Holy Prophet observed other things such as layers in the sea, comets made of ice, everything in the universe in motion, etc....

Edit:

Here a great website which explains many misconceptions of the Quran and Hadith regarding husband/wife relations.

http://www.answering-christianity.co...of_hadiths.htm
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      06-16-2007, 03:45 AM   #269
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You make use muslims sound like animals. But look at this. These are 60 of the ways our Holy Prophet and the Quran tell us how to keep the love of our wives and keep their happiness. I highlighted some of them which shows we are allowed to be cruel to our wives, read all 60 though, they are ALL important...


1. Make her feel secure.
2. Greet her with “As-Salam-Ualikum-Wa-Rehmatullah”.
3. Holy prophet said “Your wife is a fragile whistle, take care of this fragile whistle”.4. When you want to advise her, advise her in privacy, and do it when there is a happy atmosphere.
5. Be generous with your wife.
6. Avoid anger.
7. Look good, smell great.
8. Don’t be rigid.
9. Listen to your wife.
10. Flatter her, don’t argue with her.
11. Call your wife with names she likes to hear.
12. Surprise her in pleasant ways.
13. Preserve and control your tongue.
14. Expect her not to be perfect in every way.
15. Tell her you appreciate her and love her.
16. Encourage her to be close to her family, and to be kind to her parents.
17. Speak to her about things that would interest her in conversation.
18. Speak openly in front of her family about how wonderful she is.
19. Give her gifts.
20. Change routines, surprise her.
21. Think good of your wife.
22. Overlook small mistakes and pretend you did not notice it.
23. Be patient with your wife, increase patience when she is pregnant.
24. Expect and respect her jealousy.
25. Be humble to your wife and do not look down at her.
26. Put her happiness before your friends’
27. Help in the home.
28. Help her to love your parents, without force.
29. Make her feel that she is the ideal wife.
30. Remember your wife in Du’a
31. Do not interfere with her past.
32. Remember that you are the carrier of Allah’s provisions. HE is the provider, not the husband.
33. The devil is your enemy; your wife is not your enemy.
34. Put food from your hand into her mouth.
35. Your wife is your pearl; don’t leave her for anyone to touch or abuse, protect her well.
36. Smile for your wife.
37. Do not repeat things that create a wall of problems between you and your wife.
38. Avoid being harsh and moody.
39. Respect her thinking.
40. Help her to discover new strengths and skills. Her success is your success.
41. Respect the boundaries of intimate relations with her.
42. Help her with the children.
43. Be an artist with your tongue.
44. Sit and share meals with her.
45. It is wrong to not inform your wife when you are leaving/entering the house, don’t surprise her.
46. Don’t leave home when you argue unless it is healthy to leave and calm down.
47. Do not take secrets from home and share them with friends etc.
48. Encourage each other to pray. Go for Umrah or Hajj together.
49. Your wife is not only your wife by paper. Marriage is engraved on the hearts, not just paper.
50. Treat her with kindness and fairness in happy and sad times.
51. At times of intimacy, kiss your wife to begin with.
52. Be careful when seeking advice regarding problems with your wife.
53. Care deeply for her good health.
54. Do not think you are always right.
55. Share your happiness and sadness with your wife.
56. Have mercy on your wife’s weaknesses.
57. Be there for her in times of need, sadness etc.
58. Accept the way your wife is, accept her weakness.
59. Have good intentions with your wife.
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      06-16-2007, 03:52 AM   #270
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So much for Islam stopping Innovation. Look at this:

BARRIER BETWEEN SWEET AND SALT WATERS

Consider the following Qur’aanic verses:

“He has let free the two bodies Of flowing water, Meeting together: Between them is a Barrier Which they do not transgress.” [Al-Qur’aan 55:19-20]


In the Arabic text the word barzakh means a barrier or a partition. This barrier is not a physical partition. The Arabic word maraja literally means ‘they both meet and mix with each other’. Early commentators of the Qur’aan were unable to explain the two opposite meanings for the two bodies of water, i.e. they meet and mix, and at the same time, there is a barrier between them. Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity and density. Oceanologists are now in a better position to explain this verse. There is a slanted unseen water barrier between the two seas through which water from one sea passes to the other.

But when the water from one sea enters the other sea, it loses its distinctive characteristic and becomes homogenized with the other water. In a way this barrier serves as a transitional homogenizing area for the two waters. This scientific phenomenon mentioned in the Qur’aan was also confirmed by Dr. William Hay who is a well-known marine scientist and Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, U.S.A. The Qur’aan mentions this phenomenon also in the following verse:

“And made a separating bar between the two bodies Of flowing water?” [Al-Qur’aan 27:61]

This phenomenon occurs in several places, including the divider between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Ocean at Gibralter. But when the Qur’aan speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of “a forbidding partition” with the barrier.

“It is He Who has Let free the two bodies Of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, And the other salty and bitter; Yet has He Made a barrier between them, And a partition that is forbidden To be passed.”
[Al-Qur’aan 25:53]


Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and saltwater meet, the situation is somewhat different from that found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers.” This partition (zone of separation) has salinity different from both the fresh water and the salt water. This phenomenon occurs in several places, including Egypt, where the river Nile flows into the Mediterranean Sea.



I assume there is going to be some mistake in the translation now? or the Holy Prophet could have observed this himself? I repeat, there is not even 1 scientific error in the Quran, infact, it presents information that was not yet known to mankind...
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      06-16-2007, 06:44 AM   #271
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> I assume there is going to be some mistake in the translation now? or the Holy Prophet could have observed this himself?

I'm sorry, but I feel you keep trying to deceiving me. You told me he never had any schooling, but it turns out he hung out with the most learned men of the age.

And now you try to make me believe he couldn't possibly have met any fishermen that could tell the difference between salt and fresh water??!

Pretty much for every verse you quote, you want me to disregard the obvious explanation and instead accept a far-fetched one that's in line with your beliefs so must be true.

Do you know what Ijtihad is?

> Then We developed out of it another creature.

But it is the same creature, not a different or additional one.

But I'm sure you can find a more 'meaningful' translation.

> Many muslims have distorted Islamic teachings and used them to be cruel towards their wives.

They don't have to distort anything, 4:34 is pretty clear.

> These are 60 of the ways our Holy Prophet and the Quran tell us how to keep the love of our wives and keep their happiness.

Allah -his exact words in the Quran - says that men and women are equal, but then says they're not and men can beat their women if they are disobedient. (4:34)... So which is it?

Are men and women equal or not? And why does Allah contradict himself on the matter? Or is 4:34 not a verse from Allah seeing as how it contradicts with 60 others?

> Islam is the true and complete way of life.

If you're a muslim, your life belongs to Allah and Islam all you'll have (and should be all you want)
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      06-16-2007, 11:54 AM   #272
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I'm sorry, but I feel you keep trying to deceiving me. You told me he never had any schooling, but it turns out he hung out with the most learned men of the age.
You make it seem like the Holy Prophet (pbuh) had all the time in the world to sit around and be schooled by the “most learned men of the age”. You fail to see that he faced many battles and war. Not to mention that he prayed 5 times a day and helped his wives with household duties. Plus, he could not read or write which means even if he did sit with the most learned men. The only intake he has, is what he actually hears because he could not write anything down nor read anything.

And now you try to make me believe he couldn't possibly have met any fishermen that could tell the difference between salt and fresh water??!


No, there is a difference. BUT the Holy Prophet (pbuh) revealed verses which show a clear BARRIER between salt water and sea water. This is the main point. Look:

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and saltwater meet, the situation is somewhat different from that found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a “pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers.” This partition (zone of separation) has salinity different from both the fresh water and the salt water. This phenomenon occurs in several places, including Egypt, where the river Nile flows into the Mediterranean Sea.

The key here is “MODERN science”. However, the Quran speaks of this 1400 years ago.

Pretty much for every verse you quote, you want me to disregard the obvious explanation and instead accept a far-fetched one that's in line with your beliefs so must be true.

There is nothing far-fetched in the fact that the Quran speaks of things 1400 years ago, that we are discovering now, through MODERN SCIENCE.

But it is the same creature, not a different or additional one.

You have to think carefully. There is a huge difference between an embryo and a foetus. It is a different creature in every sense. They look different and are aestitically different in size etc. Their abilities and form are also different. Noone can dispute this. I also notice that you fail to explain the verse about “partly formed” and “partly unformed”.

They don't have to distort anything, 4:34 is pretty clear.

See my next post.

Allah -his exact words in the Quran - says that men and women are equal, but then says they're not and men can beat their women if they are disobedient. (4:34)... So which is it?

They are equal. The word “man” and the word “woman” both appear in the Quran 24 times. There are other mathematical miracles of the Quran but lets not get into that. Please see my next post.

Are men and women equal or not? And why does Allah contradict himself on the matter? Or is 4:34 not a verse from Allah seeing as how it contradicts with 60 others?

You said the Holy Prophet is a clever, charismatic man, and you also said it would be in his interest to APPEAR clever and as a messenger of Allah. Therefore, do you not think the Holy Prophet would make sure “his” verses didn’t contradict eachother? And please do not say he didn’t foresee his leaving of this world, and that is why when his companions compiled the Quran they made mistakes and contradictions. Our Holy Prophet knew when he was going to leave this world. But lets not get into that yet either. I can explain this to you though at a later time…

If you're a muslim, your life belongs to Allah and Islam all you'll have (and should be all you want)


Wrong. Max your life too belongs to Allah. Everything between the Heavens and Earth belong to Allah. Although, you do not see this or believe it. You are right. Islam should be all you care about, and Allah. Yesterday at the mosque we had a speech on this. We should love Allah more than any worldly possession.
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      06-16-2007, 12:04 PM   #273
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First the verse 4:34 which is frequently quoted for Qur'anic position on sexual equality. The verse is translated as under by Maulana Mohammad Ali of Lahore: "Men are maintainers of women, with what Allah has made some of them to excel others and with what they spend out of their wealth. So the good women are obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded. And (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the beds and chastise them. So if they obey you, seek not a way against them.."

The same verse is translated by Muhammad Asad as follows: "Men shall take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, and with what they may spend out of their possessions. And the righteous women are the truly devout ones, who guard the intimacy which God has (ordained to be) guarded. And for those women whose ill will you have reason to fear, admonish them (first); then leave them alone in bed; and then beat them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them."

However, Ahmed Ali in his Al-Quran differs from both Maulana Mohammaed Ali and Muhammad Asad in translating the word 'wa'dribuhunna. Mulana Mohammad Ali and Muhammad Asad translate it as 'admonish then' and 'beat them' respectively. But Ahmed Ali translates it as 'go to bed with them' and cites Raghb's Mufridat fi Gharib al-Qu'an, Lisan al-Arab, and Zamakhshari. 'Daraba 'ala', according to Raghib is said for he camel mounting over she camel and thus Ahmed Ali translates it as 'going to bed' rather than beating the wife.

Thus we see there are significant differences in translation of this controversial verse. There are few key words in this verse 'qawwam', 'qanitat', 'nushuz' and 'wa'dribuhunna'. The understanding of the verse very much depends on understanding these words properly. 'Qawwam' traditionally has been translated as 'ruler', 'authority over women' etc. However, modernists and women rights activists are challenging this meaning. Maulana Mohammad Ali translates it as 'maintainer', Mohammad Asad as 'to take full care of' and Ahmed Ali as 'guardians'.

Thus 'qawwam' should not mean ruler or an authority but one who takes care of or maintains wife or acts as guardian. It is thus not a statement of superiority of man over woman but an economic function. And it should also be noted that woman can also perform this function (and she does in our times) and hence she can also be 'qawwam' as per the Qur'an. Thus this verse cannot be understood properly unless we properly understand these key words.

Another key word is 'qanitat' which is generally translated as 'obedient' and implying thereby 'obedient to ones husband. But that is also problematic. 'Qanitat' means 'devoted to' or 'obedient to God' and not to husband. Then another important word is 'nushuz' which literally means 'rebellion' which has been rendered as 'ill will' by Muhammad Asad and Maulana Mohammad Ali as 'desertion' by wife and Ahmed Ali as being 'averse' towards husband. However, 'nushuz' as such applies to both husband as well as wife. The modern legal term for it is 'mental cruelty' and with respect to husband it also means 'ill-treatment' of wife in physical sense and we find mention of ill treatment of wife by husband (nushuz) in verse 4:128. Thus it clearly shows nushuz is applied to both husband as well as wife. And another key word 'wa'dribuhunna' has already been explained. The word daraba has several meanings in Arabic language and here, as pointed out by Raghib himself could mean sexual intercourse with wife rather than beating or chastising the wife. Thus Ahmed Ali comes much closer to the meaning of the verse.

It is important to note that the Prophet (PBUH) has also strongly disapproved of beating ones wife. We find a hadith in authentic collections, which is as follows: "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" And according to hadith in Abu Da'ud, Nasa'I, Ibn Majah, Ahmad bin Hanbal and others "Never beat God's handmaidens" i.e. he forbade to beat any woman.

In fact the above verse under discussion was revealed in response to a situation which has been described by Zamakhshari in his Kasshaf. This verse shows that there was practice of wife beating specially among the Arabs of Meccan origin. According to Zamakhshari Habiba bint Zaid complained to the Messenger of Allah that her husband Sa'd bin Rabi' slapped her. The Prophet told her to 'retaliate'. But this caused serious problem among men as they would not accept retaliation from their wives and hence they complained to the prophet and then this verse (4:34) was revealed.

However, it caused stir among women of Madina. They were disturbed and approached the Prophet and wanted to know their real status vis-a-vis men and then the verse 33:35 was revealed. The verse is quite important one as regards women's status and is translated by Maulana Muhammad Ali as under: "Surely the men who submit and women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the charitable men and the charitable women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their chastity and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah and women who remember - Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and mighty reward."

This verse is an important statement of equality of men and women. It mentions ten times men and women being equal in all respects and their reward will also be equal. It is not merely in spiritual terms as some would like to believe as the verse mentions being truthful, guarding ones chastity and being humble and patient too. Thus men are no superiors to women in any respect, spiritual or material. This statement is being made when even Greek philosophers were discussing whether women have soul or not. The Qur'an, on the other hand declares that men and women both will be forgiven and would be given great reward in equal measure. There are other verses in the Qur'an which declare equality of men and women. The verse, 2:228 for example, is one among them. This verse says, ".in accordance with justice, the rights of the wives (with regard to their husbands) are equal to (the husbands') rights with regard to them, although men have precedence over them."

Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, commenting on this verse says that the Qur'an through these four words (lahunna mithlul ladhi 'alayhinna) has made revolutionary declaration of equality of men and women. According to him these four words have given women all that was their right but they had never got them. These four words lifted women from the dust of deprivation and humility and made her sit on the throne of dignity and equality.

He also explains the words "and the men are a degree above women" by saying that they were earning and feeding them (the verse 4:35) and the Maulana, it is interesting to note also clarifies that men do not get any distinction by birth over women. If women earn and run the family women would also have this distinction of being a degree above men. Thus the statement of Qur'an "men are a degree above (women) is functional and not biological, in any way.
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      06-16-2007, 07:38 PM   #274
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HKS - that was a nice post about the 60 ways that the Prophet PBUH said to be towards your wife. I didn't know of those sayings.. I got my work cut out for me - Thanks !
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      06-16-2007, 08:03 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badmaash View Post
HKS - that was a nice post about the 60 ways that the Prophet PBUH said to be towards your wife. I didn't know of those sayings.. I got my work cut out for me - Thanks !
No problem. Wish you all the best with your marriage, hope everything works out for you...
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      06-17-2007, 03:31 AM   #276
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> However, the Quran speaks of this 1400 years ago.

The barrier was already there 1400 years ago.

> Max your life too belongs to Allah.

Then he'll have to take it by force because I will not give it willingly.

> it as 'admonish then' and 'beat them' respectively. But Ahmed Ali translates it as 'go to bed with them'

What, meaning rape them instead of beat them?

> They were disturbed and approached the Prophet and wanted to know their real status vis-a-vis men and then the verse 33:35 was revealed.

This is even worse, someone goes to complain to Muhammed and he promptly pulls a verse out of thin air to satisfy the complainer?

I've never known anyone who could command god like that.

> in accordance with justice, the rights of the wives (with regard to their husbands) are equal to (the husbands') rights with regard to them, although men have precedence over them.

Have you even seen 'Animal Farm'? It's an animated feature film centered entirely around what you say.

> I got my work cut out for me

I'm troubled that you need Allah to tell you how to treat one you love. Surely you're bright enough to figure that out?
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      06-17-2007, 05:21 AM   #277
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The barrier was already there 1400 years ago.

But noone else knew about the barrier 1400 years ago!

Then he'll have to take it by force because I will not give it willingly.

Your heart is indeed closed to the truth.

What, meaning rape them instead of beat them?

How do you translate “go to bed” with them as “rape”? Look, What Ahmed Ali meant was to create a feeling of love i.e. Intercourse. There is nothing wrong with this. Infact, if you look at the Hadiths and Quran, the Holy Prophet advised that if we really have to criticise our wives and point out their mistakes, then we should do it when there is an atmosphere of love!

Bro, after looking at the 60 ways of keeping your wives love – from Quran and Hadiths – why would you think Islam wants men to treat women like crap? That just does not make any sense. The Quran uses about 1000 out of 6000 ayahs (roughly 6000), to explain science and to prove that Allah is indeed our creator. The rest of the Quran is made up of history and a guide to life. The Quran says VERY CLEARLY “bring no harm to you wives”. The Quran also tells us that the sex of a foetus is determined by the husband, therefore, no harm should be brought to the wife for not bringing a son as it is the husband who determines the sex! Now, why if the Quran goes to such detail about protecting our wives – and it is protection because many husbands and mother-in-laws blame the wife for not giving them a son – would Islam permit beating or raping ones wife?

This is even worse, someone goes to complain to Muhammed and he promptly pulls a verse out of thin air to satisfy the complainer?

Not worse. You see, the reason for Allah revealing the Quran at different stages was so that people would not reject the book. You know yourself that the Quran has many rules and a full Islamic law. Therefore if it was revealed to the people all at once, they would indeed reject it. The Quran was revealed at certain points. Whenever the people were confused about something or doing something wrong, Allah would reveal verses that gave them advice.

Have you even seen 'Animal Farm'? It's an animated feature film centered entirely around what you say.

I have, and I have also read the book. Animal Farm is different. Because at no point are the pigs considered as being equal. They made rules for the other animals, but broke the rules themselves. Now look, the Quran says men and women are equal and follow the same rules. Islam does not let women have sex freely or show themselves to men. Well, the same rules are there for men! Both men and women have to “guard chastity”

"Surely the men who submit and women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the charitable men and the charitable women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their chastity and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah and women who remember - Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and mighty reward."

I'm troubled that you need Allah to tell you how to treat one you love. Surely you're bright enough to figure that out?

Allah acknowledges that we are not perfect. The Quran says “man was created weak”. We have several faults such as short-temper, lack of patience, lack of understanding etc. Islam strives to eliminate these faults and spread peace throughout the Earth. Indeed it is the best way of life given to us from Allah. Peace starts from the home. Can you imagine if everyone treated their wives properly according to Islam, how many problems it would prevent? Men and women would have happy marriages and would not seek pleasures elsewhere. Diseases such as HIV would not spread though open sex. Etc. I’m sure you see my point. Another point is that children would be raised in a good way. They would feel secure and would not have to fear divorce etc and they would learn so many good habits from their parents.
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      06-17-2007, 08:57 AM   #278
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> How do you translate “go to bed” with them as “rape”? Look,

Well, it says to beat your disobedient wife, but you say it can also be translated as 'have sex with'. I don't think a disobedient wife would willingly have sex... Having sex with a woman against her will makes it rape.

Although the Quran says women must never refuse to have sex with their husbands so in that respect, it couldn't possibly be rape, right? Unless she was straying from the path laid out for her?

> Your heart is indeed closed to the truth.

No, your arguments are just not convincing. Obviously my heart would have opened by Allah if your religion was indeed the one true religion.

> why would you think Islam wants men to treat women like crap?

I don't know. But women *are* being treated like crap in muslim countries. I'm sure there are regions where women are treated worse, but I can't think of one right now.

> the Quran says men and women are equal and follow the same rules

It also says men are more equal than women: 2:228

> Islam strives to eliminate these faults and spread peace throughout the Earth.

It's not working.

> Men and women would have happy marriages and would not seek pleasures elsewhere.

It seems Allah is intent on testing you to the fullest because if you hear the stories of people living in Iran and Afghanistan and Saudi-Arabia, there are very few happy men there, and no happy women.
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      06-17-2007, 02:39 PM   #279
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Well, it says to beat your disobedient wife, but you say it can also be translated as 'have sex with'. I don't think a disobedient wife would willingly have sex... Having sex with a woman against her will makes it rape.

Although the Quran says women must never refuse to have sex with their husbands so in that respect, it couldn't possibly be rape, right? Unless she was straying from the path laid out for her?


Then you forget other hadiths which state that we should not have intercourse with our wives without creating a feeling of love between the husband and wives and without kissing our wives first.

Therefore, in such a situation, there would not be a feeling of love because the wife is disobedient. This also means that intercourse cannot take place. Hence no rape.

Also, Let us look at how Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him dealt with the rapists:

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.
She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.
He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)"


Lets also look at this:

"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear God. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe. (The Noble Quran, 2:223)"

In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty allows for the husbands to sleep with their wives, but they MUST fear Allah when they do so. Forcing the wife into sex, or forcing her to do something that she does not desire while sleeping with her would not please Allah Almighty. He warns those men who are sexually mean to their wives that they will meet Him, and everything they do they will be held accountable for it

Obviously my heart would have opened by Allah if your religion was indeed the one true religion.

Not true. Lets look at the last post for example. You say that “barriers” in sea water have always existed. However, that still does not answer the question “How could the Holy Prophet (pbuh) know this 1400 years ago?” Lets not forget all the other examples of science in the Quran that I have shown you that you simply put down as simple observations that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) could have witnessed.

I don't know. But women *are* being treated like crap in muslim countries. I'm sure there are regions where women are treated worse, but I can't think of one right now.

We have already discussed this. To this day, there is NO perfect Islamic State. You know why? Firstly because there is such a huge number of divisions in Islam, and they have many weird and distorted beliefs. The second reason is because the Islamic Shari’ah Law is not practised properly. The sacred law is abused and also distorted.

Yes even Saudi Arabia is not perfect. You know the “Wahabi” sect of Islam (which is followed in Saudi Arabia) was used to plan to destroy the Holy Prophets (pbuh)’s grave. Obviously Allah will not let this happen, I can assure you that. However, Jannatul Baqi, where many muslims including the wives of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) are buried, was completely destroyed! Many other mosques were destroyed.

It also says men are more equal than women: 2:228


See next post.

It's not working.

What Islam are you talking about? There are 73 sects of Islam. Our Holy Prophet warned us of this. He said there will be 73 divisions in Islam and the right path will be the one where you follow the Quran and Sunnah/Hadith. It is not Allah nor his messengers fault if Islam is not practised properly.

Infact, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) AGAIN warned us of this. He told us how corrupt the earth will be near the Day of Judgement. For example, lying will be the way of life, and even leaders will lie openly. We see this all the time, just look at Colin Powell’s speech when he guaranteed us of the weapons in Iraq even though he was FULLY aware that the source of this info was NOT reliable and from only ONE man. Anyway, in such times, Allah will send Imam Mehdi to cleanse the Earth and also Prophet Isa (AS) for the same reason. This will bring the Earth to peace and purity.

It seems Allah is intent on testing you to the fullest because if you hear the stories of people living in Iran and Afghanistan and Saudi-Arabia, there are very few happy men there, and no happy women.

Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi-Arabia are NOT perfect Islamic states. Infact, all 3 of them are hugely corrupt.
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      06-17-2007, 02:46 PM   #280
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And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise (2:228).

In other words, Allah :

(1) gave men and women similar rights; then

(2) He gave the men a greater degree of responsibility over the women than that of women over men. It follows that the rights owned to the wife are unnegotiable, whereas the husband has to give up certain rights. This is not a feminist reading but the actual explanation of Ibn `Abbas (companion of the prophet) according to al-Tabari in his Tafsir, and the latter preferred it over all other commentaries of that verse (Al-Tabari said the best explanation is that of Ibn `Abbas).

Al-Tabari in his Tafsir narrated from Ibn `Abbas: "The daraja mentioned by Allah Most High here is the *forfeiting, on the man's part, of some his wife's obligations towards him* and his indulgence towards her, while he is *fully obligated to fulfill all his obligations towards her*, because the verse came right after { And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness} . Hence Ibn `Abbas said: 'I would not like to obtain all (astanzif) of my right from her because Allah Most High said { and men are a degree above them} .'"

Further:

Careful reading of the verse in Arabic, and in the context of other verses, does not imply inequality. Rather, {And they [the women] have [rights] like [the obligations] they are under with beneficence} , as well as other verses, emphasizes the equality of man and woman in rights and obligations, in nature and mental characteristics, in responsibility and accountability towards Allah ( but Allah swt gave the men a greater degree of responsibility over the women than that of women over men.) His Message. For example, the Qur’an says what means:

Then their Lord responded to them, “I do not waste the deed of any doer among you, any male or female. The one of you is as the other (Aal `Imran 3:195)

Surely the male donors and the female donors and [those] who lend to Allah a fair loan, it will be doubled for them, and they will have an honorable reward (Al-Hadid 57:18)

Surely [for] male Muslims and female Muslims, and male believers and female believers, and devout males and devout females and sincere males and sincere females, and patient males and patient females, and submissive males and submissive females, and male donators and female donators, and fasting males and fasting females, and males who preserve their private parts and females who preserve their private parts, and males who are much mindful of Allah and females who are much mindful of Allah – for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a magnificent reward. (Al-Ahzab 33: 35)


We should understand that equality is something different from sameness. Actually it is the latter that the feminist movement nowadays call for, while Islam and sound intellect totally reject it. Men and women are different emotionally as well as in physical characteristics and endurance. Hence they were naturally created for two different, but complementary, functions and roles. This has been demonstrated by the variance of roles of men and women in all ages, civilizations, and cultures. The long history of humanity did not witness women prophets. It would be absurd to ascribe this to male self-imposed supremacy or coercion. Rather one should ask: Why did Allah exclusively send His messages through men, unless this is His will and the norms of His creation.

The emotional character of women, their motherly instinct, and their basically tender, compassionate nature qualify them for their vital roles as careful mothers, affectionate wives, daughters, and sisters. Such roles are essential to form happy households, to raise healthy generations, and to create a closely-knit society.

Equally, men bear the major responsibility of earning for a living, harnessing and developing the resources of the earth, facing life hardships, and defending his family and the community against dangers. A man is responsible to financially support his wife (even if she is rich), his daughters until they are married, his sons until they are able to support themselves, his needy parents, as well as other blood relatives. To fulfill these major responsibilities, he should assume the role of Protector/ Guardian/ Leader, and this is what is meant by “a degree above them.” (in Islam men have a greater degree of responsibility over the women than that of women over men. It follows that the rights owned to the wife are unnegotiable, whereas the husband has to give up certain rights – like Ibn Abbas explainedin the hadith )

Thus, leadership (and the role of protector/guardian) does not thus imply any sort of inequality or dictatorship, also it implies no superiority or advantage before the law, since men are obligated to give their wives ‘kind treatment and companionship (this right of the wife is strongly emphasized by the Qur'an the Prophet ).

The Qur'an states:

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. ( Qu’ran An-nisa 19)

Prophet Muhammad. (saw) said:

The best of you is the best to his family and I am the best among you to my family. [Ibn Hibban]

The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives. (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 7396)

Islam further emphasizes the importance of taking counsel and mutual agreement in family decisions. The Qur'an gives us an example: "...If they (husband wife) desire to wean the child by mutual consent and (after) consultation, there is no blame on them..." (Qur'an 2: 233).

Men should remember that they are obligated to be just and fair to their wives ( in this way they must exercise their role as protector/leader/guardian):

"Allah commands justice, the doing Of good, and liberality to kith And kin, and He forbids All shameful deeds, and injustice And rebellion: He instructs you, That ye may receive admonition. (The Noble Quran, 16:90)"
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      06-17-2007, 11:29 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
I'm troubled that you need Allah to tell you how to treat one you love. Surely you're bright enough to figure that out?
Let me translate for you:

By saying I have my work cut out for me... was in response to a post by hks about 60 ways the prophet of Islam recommends being towards your wife. They mainly boil down to being patient, loving, respectful, gaurding your tongue and avoiding losing your temper. That is pretty hard to do IMO. ALL couples argue and fight and get on each others nerves. I got my work cut out for me becuase its hard to keep a cool and level head at all times and always be kind and respectful. Thats something that pertains to me.. it has nothing to do with you, so you should not be troubled at all.

And so are you implying that athiests who do not rely on God at all have perfect marriages? Cuz thats crazy if you think so.. everyone in relationships, no matter what beliefs they have, go through ups and downs, and how you handle yourself in those times is very important. And so to be patient and respectful are hard at times.. so therfore someone like me for example who is not very patient, would have their work cut out for them.
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      06-17-2007, 11:36 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
I don't know. But women *are* being treated like crap in muslim countries. I'm sure there are regions where women are treated worse, but I can't think of one right now.
Women are being treated like crap in many places... and there are many places where they are treated very well. In muslim countries they are oppressed, in other non-muslim countries, they are stolen as young girls - raped and made into prostitutes. They are cheated on by their husbands, their children disrespect them.. same thing , just in different forms. Its not exclusive to any muslim country.. bad people are all over the world and in many different forms.
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      06-18-2007, 12:07 AM   #283
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For the most part, based on the posts I have read.. Hks is a very knowledgeable person in Islam, who has taken a lot of time to understand his religion and what he believes in (I pray to be at his level one day, because that to me is a perfect example of man using his God given brain power to understand something)
Max is a very straight forward person also very knowlegeable in many things. but for Max to believe in a religous book.. I think it would have to be a very simple straight forward one. One that would also satisfy all doubts that he has (preferably all on the same page maybe). But then that wouldn't be the Quran or Bible, it would be the Quran for Max or the Bible for Max. Then I guess I would need a different one, and Hks would need another one, etc..
The thing about the religous books is that they are for everyone.. your answers are in there, you just gotta find it. But I dont know, you may have already tried to.. you do know more than the average person, but it all seems like its from a critical point of view.

Currently, the Muslims you know, and the ones you have heard of and seen in the news are not very good indicators. For example, if everone else was opening up a business and failing, that shouldnt discourage you - you should learn from their mistakes and be a success. So I think it would be helpful not to always point at the failures in the muslims.. that way you would learn something.

Just some points I wanted to add.. trying to keep the thread productive (sharing of knowledge, different points of view, etc..)
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      06-18-2007, 04:35 AM   #284
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Its not exclusive to any muslim country.. bad people are all over the world and in many different forms.

Good point. That's how I feel too.

I pray to be at his level one day, because that to me is a perfect example of man using his God given brain power to understand something

Thanks for the compliment. Bro, just make sure of resources we have these days. We have access to books and the internet. Google is your friend

Max is a very straight forward person also very knowlegeable in many things

Yeah, he knows a lot.

So I think it would be helpful not to always point at the failures in the muslims.. that way you would learn something.

Thats a good point. Another thing is that as you know, Islam has many divisions. So when people criticise Islam, which type of Islam? many muslims have deviated from the true path (of Quran/Sunnah/Hadith) and given opportunity for people to criticise the Quran and see "faults" in "Islam".
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      06-18-2007, 11:06 AM   #285
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I still, maybe even MORE, have the same fear about the quran that I do the bible: the man who has written it down and passed it to me. HK, you quote several different interpretations of the same verse, but rarely by the same authority. And then you tell me a word has X number of meanings, how am I to know which is correct? How do you, even with first hand knowledge of the language, know? I commend your FAITH!!!

You point to embryology, but there have been such variations, even here, that I could not say that is proof of divine communications. Maybe he did not write or read, but if he could memorize 6000 verses as a verbal only history, even with his family duties and wars, then he either had an amzing photgraphic memory (so could rememeber anything the visitors brought to his attention) or he had no such memory and the 6000 verses are suspect to his frail mind. Neither works for your assumption that he was unlearned = stupid. Don't trust science to prove your point, you'll be disappointed I'm afraid (and I consider myself a scientist or sorts) We're a cynical, malleable sort of people. Just because the roman catholic church called those who beleived the earth was round heretics, in NO WAY means there were not thousands of sailors and merchants who knew better, as soon as there were boats on the sea.

Wow, 60 verses on how to make your wife happy. What about just plain old Love her??? or what I have more recently been practicing, "Yes, dear"
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      06-18-2007, 12:09 PM   #286
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Words that have multiple meanings are not exclusive to arabic

here you go: http://home.alphalink.com.au/~umbidas/Homonyms_main.htm

thats a list of 50 in English. Every language has its mechanics and certain things mean certain things in certain situations. Its just the way it is. So when it comes to a religous text.. its important to spend a lot of time to understand the meaning. There are people who have devoted their ENTIRE life understanding and translating the Quran... And these are the ones that get the consistent translations and meanings. Then people build on what they have and we get better understanding coupled with examples from the Prophet.

And how do you just Love her? The definition of Love to me is vauge.. Everyone has a different way they express thier love. I personally would define Love as those 60 things, I know that if I did that my wife would feel very happy, special, and loved. Thats just me though.
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