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      06-09-2007, 02:51 PM   #243
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"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."

This statement is from Sura 39:6. We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On The Formation of the Foetus." Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.

After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages of the chick embryo. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century. Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replaced by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972).

"The three veils of darkness" may refer to: (l) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall; and (3) the amniochorionic membrane (Fig. 1). Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.

"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."

This statement is from Sura 23:13. The drop or nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'an which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop").

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."

This statement is from Sura 23:14. The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."

This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae.

"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh."

This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.

"Then We developed out of it another creature."

This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers.

"And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."

This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.

"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."
This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones.

"And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."
This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl.

The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'an related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.

Picture 1

Top: a drawing of a leech or bloodsucker.

Below: a drawing of a 24 day-old human embryo. Note the leech-like appearance of the human embryo at this stage.

Picture 2

Left: a plasticine model of the human embryo which has the appearance of chewed flesh.

Right: a drawing of a 28 day-old human embryo showing several bead-like somites which resemble the teeth marks in the model shown to the left.
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      06-10-2007, 05:08 AM   #244
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Thought you might also find this interesting....

Islam and Science: 40 DAYS IN THE WOMB


Joe Leigh Simpson, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at the North Western University in Chicago in the United States of America:

As we know, these chromosomes contain all the characteristics which the new human being will have such as the color of the eyes, skin, hair, etc. Hence, many of the details in the human being’s make-up are determined in his chromosomes.

These chromosomes begin to form during the early nutfah stage of embryonic development. In other words, the distinguishing features of the new human being are determined from the very beginning at the nutfah stage.

Allah, the Most Exalted, the Most Glorified, has stated this fact in the Qur’aan:

During the first 40 days of gestation, all the body parts and organs are completely, though consecutively, formed.

The Prophet Muhammad, (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam), has informed us in a hadeeth that: In every one of you, all components of your creation are gathered together in your mothers’ womb by 40 days. (Narrated in Saheeh Muslim and Al-Bukhaari).

In another Hadeeth, Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) said: When forty-two nights have passed over the drop (nutfah), Allah sends an angel to it, who shapes it and makes its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says, "O Lord, is it male or female?" and your Lord decides what he wishes. (Narrated in Saheeh Muslim).

Professor Simpson studied these two hadeeths extensively, noting that the first 40 days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryogenesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of those hadeeths.

Then during one of the conferences which he attended he gave the following opinion: So that the two hadeeths that have been noted can provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before 40 days. Again, the point had been made repeatedly by other speakers this morning that these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of their recording.

Professor Simpson says that religion can successfully guide the pursuit of knowledge. The West, as we said, has rejected this. But here is an American scientist who says that religion, namely Islam, can achieve this with success. By analogy, if you go to a factory and have with you the operation manual of the factory, then you will be able to easily understand the kind of operation that goes on in that factory, thanks to that manual by the factory designer and builder. But if you do not have this manual with you, chances are much less that you will have good understanding of the various processes there.

Professor Simpson said: It follows, I think, that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion, but in fact religion can guide science by adding revelation to some traditional scientific approaches. That there exists statements in the Qur’aan shown by science to be valid, which supports knowledge in the Qur’aan having been derived from Allah.

This is true. I also say that the Muslims can lead the way in the pursuit of knowledge and that they can accord knowledge its proper status. Moreover, Muslims know how to use knowledge as proof of the existence of Allah, May Allah be Exalted and Glorified, and to affirm the Messengership of Muhammad (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam).
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      06-10-2007, 05:38 AM   #245
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People also critisice the below Quran verse. Look at this:

“Now let man but think From what he is created! He is created from A
drop emitted – Proceeding from between The back bone and the ribs.”
[Al-Qur’aan 86:5-7]


In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles) continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even in the adult after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs. Even the lymphatic drainage and the venous return goes to the same area.
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      06-10-2007, 01:08 PM   #246
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> I believe a leech is an accurate description of the embryo . Look at the pic below.

Ah, now I understand. A human embryo looks nothing like your picture.

Have a look at these microscope pictures from the visible embryo project:

http://www.visembryo.com/baby/1.html

it starts at 1 day after ovulation and has images of the real thing all the way up to 38 weeks.

What is the source of the image you attached? It can't be from an embryologist, can it?
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      06-10-2007, 01:24 PM   #247
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What is the source of the image you attached? It can't be from an embryologist, can it?

Actually, look here:

A few years ago a group of Arabs collected all information concerning embryology from the Qur’aan, and followed the instruction of the Qur’aan:
“If ye realise this not, ask Of those who possess the Message.”
[Al-Qur’aan 16:43 & 21:7]


All the information from the Qur’aan so gathered, was translated into English and presented to Prof. (Dr.) Keith Moore, who was the Professor of Embryology and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at the University of Toronto, in Canada. At present he is one of the highest authorities in the field of Embryology. He was asked to give his opinion regarding the information present in the Qur’aan concerning the field of embryology. After carefully examining the translation of the Qur’aanic verses presented to him, Dr. Moore said that most of the information concerning embryology mentioned in the Qur’aan is in perfect conformity with modern discoveries in the field of embryology and does not conflict with them in any way. He added that there were however a few verses, on whose scientific accuracy he could not comment. He could not say whether the statements were true or false, since he himself was not aware of the information contained therein.

There was also no mention of this information in modern writings and studies on embryology. One such verse is: “Proclaim! (or Read!) In the name Of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created – Created man, out of A (mere) clot Of congealed blood.” [Al-Qur’aan 96:1-2]

The word alaq besides meaning a congealed clot of blood also means something that clings, a leech-like substance. Dr. Keith Moore had no knowledge whether an embryo in the initial stages appears like a leech. To check this out he studied the initial stage of the embryo under a very powerful microscope in his laboratory and compared what he observed with a diagram of a leech and he was astonished at the striking resemblance between the two!

In the same manner, he acquired more information on embryology that was hitherto not known to him, from the Qur’aan. Dr. Keith Moore answered about eighty questions dealing with embryological data mentioned in the Qur’aan and Hadith. Noting that the information contained in the Qur’aan and Hadith was in full agreement with the latest discoveries in the field of embryology, Prof. Moore said, “If I was asked these questions thirty years ago, I would not have been able to answer half of them for lack of scientific information”

Dr. Keith Moore had earlier authored the book, ‘The Developing Human’. After acquiring new knowledge from the Qur’aan, he wrote, in 1982, the 3rd edition of the same book, ‘The Developing Human’. The book was the recipient of an award for the best medical book written by a single author. This book has been translated into several major languages of the world and is used as a textbook of embryology in the first year of medical studies.

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Dr. Moore said, “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur’aan about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God or Allah, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God or Allah.”
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      06-10-2007, 01:44 PM   #248
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> Keith Moore

You do know Keith got a bucketload of cash from the Bin Laden family for writing that book...?

It's like cell phone companies sponsering research that says cellphones don't cause cancer.
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      06-10-2007, 02:01 PM   #249
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You do know Keith got a bucketload of cash from the Bin Laden family for writing that book...?

Does it change what he seen under the microscope? and does it change the stages of pregnancy in the Quran? (post #243 - please reply to it) Please also reply to post #245....
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      06-10-2007, 02:22 PM   #250
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Here is a baby diary which shows that on December 4th 2001, the embryo actually looks like a leech:

http://www.baz.com/wendy/baby/december01.html#12/4/01

If you look at the picture below, you will see that it does infact resemble a leech
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      06-10-2007, 02:44 PM   #251
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If you look at post #243...

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."

This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae.
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      06-11-2007, 10:13 AM   #252
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So, some Hadiths are to be beleived, but only if they support the quran??? Then why are they included if they do not support it?

A few years ago? How did this Dr. Keith get to be chairman if he had no knowledge of the complete stages of development? Might he be more of an administrative chair who writes/sells books instead? Let's see, 19% of the world's population would like to see this in print, and if even 20% of that number could be convinced to buy my book that was financed by bin Laden, yeah that would be a tidy profit and pay my mortgage this month.

It's all about the power that religion can provide, and that is a trap laid for all religions. See how whacked those cult leaders get?
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      06-11-2007, 12:59 PM   #253
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> The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump."

The official translation says: bite-sized lump of flesh. The somites are also only visible with X-rays and they only roughly resemble teeth marks. But I'll grant you that this is the most plausible of all the assertions.

Let's recap a bit.

1) People in Muhammed's time believed conception started with clotted blood. This was certainly the view of the Greeks at this time and this would have been well known to Muhammed's close companion and good friend doctor Harith Ibn Kalada who was well versed in Greek medicine. So it is at least possible that this statement was based on knowledge passed to Muhammed by his friend the doctor, rather than Allah.

2) People in Muhammed's time believed sperm originated from the kidneys. This was most certainly believed by his good friend doctor Harith Ibn Kalada. This provides a very plausible explanation for the "Between the back bone and the ribs" reference, which Allah would have known to be wrong.

3) Flesh is created before bones. Certainly, the muscles are present even before the precursors to bone are formed. The statement: "Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh." is inline with what doctor Harith Ibn Kalada would have believed at the time but wrong unless you can translate bones as flesh and flesh as bones.

These three taken together makes it very likely that the embryology knowledge in the Quran originated from doctor Harith Ibn Kalada instead of Allah.

It is not without precedent for words in the verses to come from people other than Muhammed.

Given this evidence, I think it should at least give you pause for thought.

It's only when there is no other possible explanation, that you can assert the knowledge must have come from Allah.
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      06-11-2007, 02:01 PM   #254
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So, some Hadiths are to be beleived, but only if they support the quran??? Then why are they included if they do not support it?

That’s exactly true. C’mon. Even if you don’t think the Quran is the word of Allah, do you not think the Holy Prophet (pbuh) would make sure the Quran and his hadiths would be the exact same? I mean, Max said it would be in the Holy Prophet (pbuh)’s best interest to APPEAR as a prophet of Allah.

The reason I showed you that Hadith, is so that you can see that Hadiths have been transmitted through time, over 1400 years, and there has been some errors in the transmission. It’s like playing Chinese whispers. Anyway, Max was trying to show that the Hadith he showed me was wrong, and yes – scientifically it is incorrect. BUT I showed you the same Hadith but slightly differently recorded, and it is 100% scientifically correct!

What I’m trying to say is that the Hadiths and the Quran never contradict eachother. Even if the Holy Prophet is NOT a messenger of Allah, he would at least want to APPEAR as one. Another point to note is that since the Hadiths have been verbally transmitted, some people have made mistakes in the transmission through a period of 1400 years. However, the Quran has not even one change in it. There are many translations of the Quran BUT the actual Arabic has NEVER been changed!

A few years ago? How did this Dr. Keith get to be chairman if he had no knowledge of the complete stages of development?

A few years ago, noone really made the comparison between the “~24 dpo” stage and a leech. However, if you study the stage under a microscope (which was NOT invented 1400 years ago) you will see that it resembles a leech.

This isn’t really a huge advance in embryology; it’s just a note that can be made of that particular stage. The real significance is in the fact that the Quran mentions the similarities between that particular stage and a leech. They physically look very similar. However, the size of the embryo at this point is VERY small. Only a few mm’s. How could the Holy Prophet (pbuh) know this 1400 years ago?

And as a side note: What do you think about post #245?
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      06-11-2007, 02:04 PM   #255
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The official translation says: bite-sized lump of flesh. The somites are also only visible with X-rays and they only roughly resemble teeth marks. But I'll grant you that this is the most plausible of all the assertions.

People in Muhammed's time believed conception started with clotted blood. This was certainly the view of the Greeks at this time and this would have been well known to Muhammed's close companion and good friend doctor Harith Ibn Kalada who was well versed in Greek medicine. So it is at least possible that this statement was based on knowledge passed to Muhammed by his friend the doctor, rather than Allah.


Translators are not embryologists. There are usually more than one meaning of Arabic words. Translators choose what they think is the most suitable meaning. It can be translated as “chewed lump” and “alaqah” can be translated as “leech”, however, the translators did not think these meanings were significant or fitting since they are NOT embryologists.

This provides a very plausible explanation for the "Between the back bone and the ribs" reference, which Allah would have known to be wrong.

But it is not wrong, look:

In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles) continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even in the adult after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs. Even the lymphatic drainage and the venous return goes to the same area

The statement: "Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh." is inline with what doctor Harith Ibn Kalada would have believed at the time but wrong unless you can translate bones as flesh and flesh as bones.


Dr. Keith Moore is among the foremost authorities on embryological development in the world. He says the following about the development of bones and muscle:

‘The continuation of Surah 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models, and then muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm...when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic conncetive tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiaeted. It later develops into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones’

Now, either Dr Moore is an unusually brave man for staking his tremendous respect in the scientific community for having authored the standard textbook on embryology in the world ‘The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology’ which has been published in eight languages and has recently seen the publication of it’s sixth edition, by lying through his teeth and deliberately distorting scientific knowledge to make it fit in with the Quran- or otherwise he is telling the truth, and the formation of bones before muscles does indeed occur. Interestingly, the critic has decided not to quote directly from ‘modern embryologists including Prof. Moore’ but rather referred to the book knowing most of his readers won’t have the time to check whether Dr Moore has really said what he is telling us he said, and whether it means what he would like it to mean! I would advise Dr.Lactantius to refer to relevant quotations when arguing his points, rather than to devoting his time and energy on the inclusion of pretty diagrams and busts of this and that Greek physician or this or that ancient hospital! Perhaps the good doctor was hoping we would be encapsulated by the textbook- like professionalism of the presentation of the article, and ignore the lacklustre and unscholarly nature if the points raised in it. Oh well, better luck next time!

On this point, Dr.Bucaille writes:

‘The embryo is initially a small mass. At a certain stage in its development, it appears to the naked eye like chewed flesh. The bone structure develops inside this mass in what is known as mesenchyma. The bones that are formed are covered with muscle, the word ‘lahm’ (intact flesh-bracket mine) applies to them’

I cannot claim to be to be an expert on embryology, but it does appear very obvious to me that either the interpretation of the Quranic description that the critic is providing in incorrect or else the science behind his criticism is faulty. In either case, I do not believe that the Quran has made any scientific mistake whatsoever! Dr.Omar Abdul Rehman sheds some light on this issue:

The above Ayah explicitly states that the bones are formed first and that this is followed by the formation of flesh or muscles which take their position around the bones (clothing the bones). In fact the primordia or precursors of both the bone and muscle (in the form of myotomes and selertomes(are present together with those of bones and other tissues and organs in a collective primitive structure are formed during the first 40 days and is found in the Mudghah. However, in this stage the primordia of muscle have not yet differentiated into definitive bones and muscles. As they do not have the shapes or forms of bones or muscles, the whole embryo at this stage does not have a human appearance.

During the seventh week- the skeleton begins to spread throughout the body and the bones take their familiar shapes. The embryo then starts to acquire the human appearance. At the end of the seventh week and during the eighth week the muscles take their positions around the bone forms, "definitive muscles of trunk, limbs and head are well represented and foetus is capable of some movement".
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      06-11-2007, 02:28 PM   #256
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Re 245: Again, I am at a disadvantage because I do not speak Arabic. judging from our previous collective discussions, how many variations in Arabic are there for the area "between the back and the ribs" Are we going to again have trouble with the translators not knowing about human phsyiology?

Why are the hadiths different from the quran in terms of their variations over the intervening 1400 years? I am ignorant to the difference between the two sources of information. You tell me not 1 word of the quran has changed, but somewhere there was at least 3 links to various sources of the quran for me to buy "discreetly" over the internet. Since I do not speak/read Arabic, how will I know I have the correct version? Is there some prophet as yet to come who will tell me in English so that my heart might be opened? That is my regular mantra, "If today I hear your voice Lord, harden not my heart"
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      06-11-2007, 03:43 PM   #257
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how many variations in Arabic are there for the area "between the back and the ribs" Are we going to again have trouble with the translators not knowing about human phsyiology?

Well, this time we don’t have as much difficulty because the only possible translations are not farfetched like “bloodclot” or “leech”. Here are the translations:

Yusuf Ali: “He is created from a drop emitted proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs”

Pickthall: “ He is created from a gushing fluid that issued from between the loins and ribs.”

Palmer: “he is created from water poured forth, that comes out from between the loins and the breast bones”

Rodwell: “He was created of the poured-forth germs which issue from the loins and breastbones:”

Why are the hadiths different from the quran in terms of their variations over the intervening 1400 years?

The reason for this is simple. The Arabic of the Quran has NEVER changed because our Holy Prophet (pbuh) learnt the text by heart. He then made sure that his close companions learnt it by heart – word for word! - so that it could be preserved. However, during times of war, there was fear that the Quran could be lost if the people that memorised the Quran were killed. Therefore the first written Quran was produced and kept under the guard of one of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)’s wife.

However, Hadiths are pieces of advice and information the Holy Prophet gave during his lifetime. Sometimes only one or two people are present and they then tell it to someone else and someone else. Now, 1400 years later, we have several variations of the Hadiths because they are transmitted verbally.

You tell me not 1 word of the quran has changed, but somewhere there was at least 3 links to various sources of the quran for me to buy "discreetly" over the internet.

There are no variations of the actual Arabic version of the Quran – the way the Quran was revealed to our Holy Prophet. I have seen versions of the Quran from here, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Pakistan etc. None of them are different. I have heard of unbelievers trying to taint the Quran by wrong translations of it. When I say “wrong”, I mean completely different, not just translation issues. However, that said, I have never seen any variations of the Quran itself, even ones from all over the world.

Is there some prophet as yet to come who will tell me in English so that my heart might be opened?

Yes, Prophet Isa (AS) [Jesus] will return to the earth for a period of 40 years. Imam Mehdi will also come to the earth. Both of whom, will spread Islam throughout the earth. There are signs for the coming of Imam Mehdi (he will come first). The arrival of Imam Mehdi is at a time when the world is in such a bad state. i.e. people lie openly and daily. The list goes on. I can give you some youtube videos about this if you want.
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      06-13-2007, 11:31 AM   #258
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So what you are saying is that you believe it is totally impossible that Muhammed meant clotted blood eventhough that was exactly what everyone else at the time - including his doctor friend - believed?
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      06-13-2007, 11:49 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Max_! View Post
So what you are saying is that you believe it is totally impossible that Muhammed meant clotted blood eventhough that was exactly what everyone else at the time - including his doctor friend - believed?
I feel that it is more that a coincidence that there is such a striking resemblance between the embryo at 24 dpo and a leech!

I WOULD think that it would be possible to translate it as "bloodclot" IF the Quran did not give more details about embryology. However, it does. See post #243 which shows there is not even one scientific error in the Quran's account of embryology.

For example, The Quran makes the distinction between the embryo and foetus. Look:

"Then We developed out of it another creature."

Now, why would the Quran describe the development of an embryo and then suddenly say it changes into another creature and then goes on to say it becomes basically a foetus and gains sight, hearing and understanding etc ?

In the Holy Prophet's time there was no mention from ANY historical texts or people that during the development of an embryo or "baby" (as they would have said then), that there is a change in the type of "creature" that the baby actually is, and then the "baby" gains hearing, sight etc.
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      06-15-2007, 11:39 AM   #260
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> I feel that it is more that a coincidence that there is such a striking resemblance between the embryo at 24 dpo and a leech!

Fair enough, but that means your entire religion hinges on the true meaning of a single word in the Quran.
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      06-15-2007, 01:09 PM   #261
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Fair enough, but that means your entire religion hinges on the true meaning of a single word in the Quran.

Trust me, I see your point, but post #243 shows that the Quran gives a very accurate account of embryology. I dont think it can be seen as vague.

For example, lets pretend the meaning of "alaqah" was meant to be "blood clot". Then I would ask how did the Quran know when sight and hearing etc was gained by the baby? Then I would also ask why did the Quran make a point in saying that the embryo became another creature? and then why did the Quran go on to say: "Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed." ?

I feel that the Quran is being very specific in its account of embryology. It is not just a coincidence that these facts are strung together in a certain order that is 100% scientifically true.
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      06-15-2007, 02:44 PM   #262
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> lets pretend the meaning of "alaqah" was meant to be "blood clot". Then I would ask how did the Quran know when sight and hearing etc was gained by the baby?

If it says blood clot, then that knowledge came from Muhammed's companion instead of Allah. If that is possible, then there's no way to know which verses in the Quran are truly from Allah.

It would explain why it has conflicting verses such as men and women are equal and then, on pretty much the next page, that you may beat your women into submission since you pay for their upkeep.
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      06-15-2007, 03:05 PM   #263
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If it says blood clot, then that knowledge came from Muhammed's companion instead of Allah. If that is possible, then there's no way to know which verses in the Quran are truly from Allah.

What I'm trying to say is: IF the Quran means blood-clot - as you seem to think it does - then...

I would ask how did the Quran know when sight and hearing etc was gained by the baby? Then I would also ask why did the Quran make a point in saying that the embryo became another creature? and then why did the Quran go on to say: "Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed." ?

You see where I'm going? If the Holy Prophet just copied his companion (doctor)'s ideas, then where did all these other (scientifically true) ideas come from?

It would explain why it has conflicting verses such as men and women are equal and then, on pretty much the next page, that you may beat your women into submission since you pay for their upkeep.

See next post.
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      06-15-2007, 03:20 PM   #264
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"Men [as husbands] are responsible for their women because God has made the one superior to the other [in different spheres] and because they spend of their wealth. Therefore, righteous women are obedient [to their husbands] and guard their secrets as God has also guarded secrets. As for those from whom you fear refusal of obedience, admonish them and [if this does not effect their behavior then] leave them alone on their beds and [if even this does not effect their behavior then] beat them."
Qur'an (4: 34)


The above verse can be explained in two ways. Firstly, it is clearly stated in this verse that men might only beat their wives in the case of "Nushooz" or disobedience. In fact, Allah Almighty has allowed beating wives as the last resort for husbands, a man should warn his wife first, and if she is still stubborn, then he may stop sleeping with her, and then if she is still disobeying him then he might beat her (slightly).

Another explanation says that the Arabic word: "idribuhunna" used in the Noble Verse 4:34 above is derived from "daraba" which means "beat". The issue with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit". The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them. It is might be like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English.

Wife beating anytime and for any reason is prohibited in Islam.

Allah says in the Holy Qur'an:

"Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them..."
Qur'an (2:231)


In this verse Allah forbids husbands from keeping their wives with the intention of harming them.

Also Qur�an states that if life has become impossible and unbearable between husband and wife, they should go separate peacefully:

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if you do well and practice self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that you do."
Qur'an (4:128)


Male dominance- even if it wasn't physically abusive- is not allowed in Islam, for it will eventually threaten the marriage and result in a divorce. Husbands should not try to force their wives to change. Some husbands (Muslim or non-Muslims) have the tendency to show some dominance by trying to impose certain rules upon their wives, in a hope that their wives would start living or acting the way their husbands want them to live or act. For that matter, requests for small changes (form either wife or husband) is okay, but for the basic things such as beliefs or habits should be accepted as is.

Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) ordered Muslim husbands to accept their wives as they are, treat them kindly and equally; according to the following �hadith� narrated by Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:

"I went to the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food as what you have for yourself, and clothe them as you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them."

Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) ordered Muslim wives not to provoke their husbands allowing them to lose their tempers and so beat them, he (PBUH) also advised Muslim husbands not to over react with their wives, for this provokes the wife to disobey her husband and thus giving husbands the right to beat them (but again not harsh beating).

Brutally beating the wives and causing bruises and damages to their bodies is clearly prohibited in Islam. And because Islam gives his respect to dignity of the individual, Prophet Mohammad forbad striking on the face for anyone, even slaves, not just for wives, because it is mere humiliation.

As narrated AbuHurayrah:

Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) said:

"When one of you inflicts a beating, he should avoid striking the face."
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