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      09-08-2006, 03:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
"Your comments are too bizarre for me to respond to." Translation: "I can't think of anything to say about them, so I will make it seem like you don't know what you're talking about."
No, actually it means I can not comprehend calling the US some imperialistic power. The only response to it is that you are absolutely wrong. Here is the definition of Imperialistic:The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.

No nation in the history of the world has been so powerful, and yet used its power to do more good for the world. Every nation we have defeated in war, we built up to their betterment and left them to govern themselves instead of taking their land and riches. You are just plain wrong, or lying when you made that statement. It is hard to respond to a statement that is that irrational.

As for the letter Harry Reid wrote, it has been well published in the media. I listened to an interview of the producer of the mini-series on Sean Hannity today. He confirmed the show has been edited in response to this political pressure from the Dems. He said from the beginning the mini-series was considered a docu-drama by ABC. Where is the valiant ACLU now to defend this artists freedom of speech and expression?

As for you characterization of the FCC as "an extension of the Christian right", that too is wrong. In fact the FCC is a bureaucratic regulatory organization filled with union civil service employees. Most of us on the right are hardly supporters of big government bureaucracy. And by the way what is your problem with Christians. It seems throughout this thread you write as if Christians were bad and a problem of this country. This really shows how out of touch you are considering the great majority of Americans are good Christians.
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      09-08-2006, 05:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
No, actually it means I can not comprehend calling the US some imperialistic power. The only response to it is that you are absolutely wrong. Here is the definition of Imperialistic:The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
Let's look at that definition (by the way, I 100% agree with that definition). You are correct -- with respect to Iraq, the US has not declared Iraq to now be part of the US. But what is "political hegemony?" Political hegemony is "leadership or predominant influence exercised by one nation over another" (in this case, with respect to its system of government). President Bush has consisently mentioned that we have liberated Iraq and have brought democracy to Iraq, and that the US will not withdraw its troops until such a time that the US determines Iraq has a stable democracy. In other words, the US invaded a nation (based on false pretenses) and then proceeded to instill its form of government on the population. I don't recall the Iraqis asking for our help (whether or not they are better off by it is irrelevant). That sounds like political hegemony to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
No nation in the history of the world has been so powerful, and yet used its power to do more good for the world. Every nation we have defeated in war, we built up to their betterment and left them to govern themselves instead of taking their land and riches. You are just plain wrong, or lying when you made that statement. It is hard to respond to a statement that is that irrational.
With respect to WWI and WWII, the US was but one member of nations who helped to rebuild those nations left defeated. In the Iraq war, the US is the largest player by far in the "rebuilding process." We have not yet left Iraq, and when (and if) we do, only then will we be able to comment on the "altruistic" nature of the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
As for the letter Harry Reid wrote, it has been well published in the media. I listened to an interview of the producer of the mini-series on Sean Hannity today. He confirmed the show has been edited in response to this political pressure from the Dems. He said from the beginning the mini-series was considered a docu-drama by ABC. Where is the valiant ACLU now to defend this artists freedom of speech and expression?
I did a Google search for various searches and found the letter to which you are referring http://democrats.senate.gov/newsroom...cfm?id=262624&. This letter mentions that ABC is using public airwaves, and as such has a duty to the public to use those public airwaves responsibly -- responsibly, as in not using them in a misleading or inaccurate way. It does not threaten the revokation of their FCC license, nor any other penalities or sanctions, in any way. As for the ABC mini-series, consider the following: 1) not everyone who watches the mini-series will have read of the controversy beforehand. Thus, in the interest of maintaining credibility, it is necessary for ABC to either remove/edit the parts which take creative liberties, or they should disclaim that those creative liberties have been taken, and 2) ABC news will air a disclaimer (whether decided before or as a response to the furor, I do not know), but that the disclaimer will also contain text that it is based on the 9/11 commission report, even though the report itself will contradict scenes in the mini-series. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...11movie08.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
As for you characterization of the FCC as "an extension of the Christian right", that too is wrong. In fact the FCC is a bureaucratic regulatory organization filled with union civil service employees. Most of us on the right are hardly supporters of big government bureaucracy. And by the way what is your problem with Christians. It seems throughout this thread you write as if Christians were bad and a problem of this country. This really shows how out of touch you are considering the great majority of Americans are good Christians.
I don't have a problem with Christians. "Christian-right" (also referred to as "Religious Right") is a common term to refer to right-wing Christian political movements. And whether or not the majority of Americans are good Christians, I have my own set of beliefs, which I (and certainly many others) would prefer over those of the Christian-right. Bush has set a clear agenda against gays, women's right (e.g. abortions), and embryonic stem-cell research. Going further, Christian-right beliefs would also bring back school prayer (what about all of the non-Christians? Would they be represented?), and let us not forget bringing back the teaching that evolution is only a theory and that creationism (not a scientifically valid theory, and not a belief held by all) should be taught in public schools. You have your beliefs, I have mine -- I won't try to force mine on you, so I'd appreciate it if you and others wouldn't force yours on me.
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      09-08-2006, 07:10 PM   #25
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You said:"I don't recall the Iraqis asking for our help"

Incorrect. There were several groups that we have been providing aid and support to prior to the war who were begging us to overthrow Saddam.

You said:" President Bush has consistently mentioned that we have liberated Iraq and have brought democracy to Iraq, and that the US will not withdraw its troops until such a time that the US determines Iraq has a stable democracy."

Incorrect. President Bush recognizes the new government of Iraq who can ask us to leave at anytime. It turns out the sovereign Iraqi government wants us to stay for now to aid in their security.

You said:"With respect to WWI and WWII, the US was but one member of nations who helped to rebuild those nations left defeated. In the Iraq war, the US is the largest player by far in the "rebuilding process."

I think we were the largest player in the rebuilding process of West Germany, and Japan during WWII. Those governments are flourishing, and we are not in control of them.

You said:"it is necessary for ABC to either remove/edit the parts which take creative liberties, or they should disclaim that those creative liberties have been taken,..."

You are opposed to creative liberties in film making. OK, what docudramas or films have been made with inaccurate information regarding President Bush, PM Blair, or the war in Iraq that you believe should be shown with a disclaimer or edited. The scenes in this mini-series that are being disputed by certain political members of the Democrat party have been confirmed to be true by other non political sources. In America we have a right to broadcast any side of that we want without government censorship. It seems you believe in censorship, only when the truth hurts your political goals.

You said:"Bush has set a clear agenda against gays, women's right..."

Can you name one case or one Constitutional right that has been taken away from any of those said groups since Bush took office?

You said:"Christian-right beliefs would also bring back school prayer (what about all of the non-Christians? Would they be represented?)"

I don't believe there is anyone who is proposing to force prayer on anyone. Just as the Pledge of Allegiance, anyone who does not want to participate can choose not to do so. No one is forced to do anything in this country.
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      09-08-2006, 08:21 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
Let's concentrate on how the Bush Administration can [try to, HAHA!] fix: 1) a failed war in Iraq, 2) a faltering economy...
The (try to, haha) shows that you are not really looking to solve any of our country's problems, and it seems you want to see the war in Iraq fail to score political points. This is what I can't stand about the Democrats. Since they are out of power they are happy when something bad happens to our country so they can use it to score political points. I think they want us to lose the war as long as it hurts Bush.

About your so called "faltering economy", I guess you don't know 1.9 million jobs were created in the last year and our unemployment rate is 4.6% one of the lowest if not the lowest in history. I'm sure you are aware this was much higher during the booming economy of the Clinton administration. What exactly have you been told about our economy that gives you any indication it is anything but excellent?
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      09-09-2006, 09:43 AM   #27
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Did you guys see this? http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/07/fbi-agent-quit/
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      09-09-2006, 07:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
I find it impossible to believe virtually anything that comes out of any politician's mouth. A good number of the people who were involved in this mini-series, or who have commented on it, also have written books giving their understanding of events, so everyone (not just liberals) have something to gain it seems.
Please, if you don't mind, would name names and identify your sources?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
I would actually prefer to see this series pulled off the air. Firstly, it will be impossible to view this program without any bias. Conservatives and liberals alike will argue ad infinitum about what was wrong/misleading/exaggerated/etc.
Yeah, absolutely anything that cannot be viewed without bias should be "pulled off the air". Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
Secondly, what is the point in spreading blame? It's not like is going to get anything accomplished, except waste time, money and energy.
This is a docudrama about what led up to 9/11 based on what happened that led up to 9/11. In other words: facts that led up to 9/11.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with "spreading" blame. It has to do with the FACTS that led up to 9/11. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
Lastly, I argue that the US has more pressing issues to deal with. Let's concentrate on how the Bush Administration can [try to, HAHA!] fix: 1) a failed war in Iraq, 2) a faltering economy, 3) gross abuse of executive level power, 4) greater influence of the Christian-right on what should otherwise be a nation founded on the principles of separation of church and state, 5) deteriorating quality of our educational system (No Child Left Behind is an ABSOLUTE JOKE), 6) ever decreasing popularity on the world stage (sometimes doing what is right *is* doing what the international community agrees is "popular"), and 7) a nation bent on imperialistic tendencies (democracy is good for you, but we don't care if you don't want it or aren't ready for it!).
I agree that there are more pressing issues, such as BORDER CONTROL and ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. This is the primary ROOT cause of our laughable education system. Yeah, No Child Left Behind is, indeed, a complete and total joke.

I also agree we need to leave other counties alone and let them figure it out for themselves.

I also agree the war in Iraqi is bullshit. We need to pull out of there and let those folks kill each other. Why continue to do it for them.

I don't know where you live, but here in the United States our economy is BOOMING.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
I attribute the downfall of America today not because of extremist terrorists, but because of our response TO those terrorists, and the general disregard to anything not related to Bush's political and business allies.
Here are a couple of quotes that will explain precisely why America is doomed:

"The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of it's continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities . . . "
-- Theodore Roosevelt 1915

"You cannot become thorough Americans if you think of yourselves in groups. America does not consist of groups. A man who thinks of himself as belonging to a particular group in America has not yet become an American." -- Woodrow Wilson 1915
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      09-11-2006, 05:55 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
No nation in the history of the world has been so powerful, and yet used its power to do more good for the world. Every nation we have defeated in war, we built up to their betterment and left them to govern themselves instead of taking their land and riches. You are just plain wrong, or lying when you made that statement. It is hard to respond to a statement that is that irrational.
You make such grand claims and offer sources from sites so far to the right it's pathetic. I guess any other source will be considered part of the "liberal media" to you. You should really brush up on your history. If you defended some Republican strong points on the war and a few other issues you would'nt come off as bad. But defending every Republican agenda, is making you look like an ass. You don't need to be a liberal to see it either.

After the Spanish American War the U.S. took possesion of the Phillipines, which in itself spark the Philippine-American War. Thousands of Philpinos died fighting for their indpendence. After Spain's defeat the Philppines was suppose to be given back to Philippinos. But instead the U.S. sent over a 100,000 troops to crush the rebellion. So much for going to war with Spain with the bullshit excuse of freeing these people from Spain's tryannical rule.

More U.S. soldiers died fighting there then from fighting the Spanish! And hundreds of thousands of Philppino's would die from famine and disease. All for what, to set up naval bases farther into the pacific. The Spanish-American war itself, I can go as far to say was fabricated. The battle ship Maine, which was the rallying point for the U.S. to go to war was sunk by the U.S. government. Spain has for a long time believed this to be the case, and to this day, they still do. The Maine was not sunk by a Spanish mine, it was self "lnflicted damage" that caused it to go down, this is a fact. Just imagine, if the inquiries sent to investigate, were legit in the first place, and studied the damage of the ship they would've discovered that it was at the very least an accident. The whole war would've been avoided. But, of course this was not the governments intent, not at all.

All governments have done this in the past, not just the U.S. They look for pretexts to go to war, or push an agenda. Just like your Bushy did in Iraq, I don't know if it takes history buffs to see how obvious it was. I know a lot more people are opening there eyes and questioning this adminstrations motives on almost every issue. There are other issues with pretextes written all over them, The Gulf of Tonkin incident, the Sinking of the Lusitania(which was in fact carry munitions to Britain). I don't claim a political party, I do claim I know my history very well, well enough to call any adminstrations agendas bs.
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      09-11-2006, 08:06 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
You said:"I don't recall the Iraqis asking for our help"

Incorrect. There were several groups that we have been providing aid and support to prior to the war who were begging us to overthrow Saddam.

You said:" President Bush has consistently mentioned that we have liberated Iraq and have brought democracy to Iraq, and that the US will not withdraw its troops until such a time that the US determines Iraq has a stable democracy."

Incorrect. President Bush recognizes the new government of Iraq who can ask us to leave at anytime. It turns out the sovereign Iraqi government wants us to stay for now to aid in their security.

You said:"With respect to WWI and WWII, the US was but one member of nations who helped to rebuild those nations left defeated. In the Iraq war, the US is the largest player by far in the "rebuilding process."

I think we were the largest player in the rebuilding process of West Germany, and Japan during WWII. Those governments are flourishing, and we are not in control of them.

You said:"it is necessary for ABC to either remove/edit the parts which take creative liberties, or they should disclaim that those creative liberties have been taken,..."

You are opposed to creative liberties in film making. OK, what docudramas or films have been made with inaccurate information regarding President Bush, PM Blair, or the war in Iraq that you believe should be shown with a disclaimer or edited. The scenes in this mini-series that are being disputed by certain political members of the Democrat party have been confirmed to be true by other non political sources. In America we have a right to broadcast any side of that we want without government censorship. It seems you believe in censorship, only when the truth hurts your political goals.

You said:"Bush has set a clear agenda against gays, women's right..."

Can you name one case or one Constitutional right that has been taken away from any of those said groups since Bush took office?

You said:"Christian-right beliefs would also bring back school prayer (what about all of the non-Christians? Would they be represented?)"

I don't believe there is anyone who is proposing to force prayer on anyone. Just as the Pledge of Allegiance, anyone who does not want to participate can choose not to do so. No one is forced to do anything in this country.
Several groups is not indicative to me of the entire population. More than anything, those several groups are most likely the extremely strong political groups which represent an extremely small percent of the population. Those groups most likely don't have the best interests of the Iraqi people in mind.

If the Iraqi government seriously came to us and said, "Good job, go home," do you think we would leave? Just pull up and move out? I think that Bush saying that we will leave whenever you [Iraq] are ready is simply him manipulating the public's opinion ("See, we just went in there to help Iraq, and as soon as they're ready, we'll leave." ::trademark Bush smirk:: ). In the other thread ("Approach On The War In Iraq") you indicate your belief that the US wants Iraq as a friendly ally. I don't think the US will ever leave, and if they do, it will be on the US' timetable, not on the Iraqi's.

With respect to the rebuilding of Iraq, we're talking about a completely different type of nation. Germany and Japan were both sophisticated enough to launch successful attacks on neighboring nations, and this speaks to their economic, social and military abilities. While Iraq has been an aggressor nation, I don't think that we can put Iraq in the same league as pre-war Japan and Germany. With that in mind, this, much like the larger war in general, is one of those items which will only be judgable after some time has passed.

I am not opposed to creative liberties in film-making, so long as those creative liberties are mentioned, especially in a case where people would otherwise believe 100% everything being said. For example, when a news organization creates a show about the events leading up to 9/11, if even one shred of that show differed knowingly (unknowingly is of course a different story) from the actual event, then a disclaimer is necessary to indicate that the show is no longer a documentary in the strictest sense of the word. Many people treat the news they see on TV as the last word. It's responsible journalism to make sure that every effort is taken to retain accuracy or inform people of the lack therof.

(As a quick aside, I watched the first part last night. I'm happy with what ABC did with their disclaimer. The show itself was rather well done, especially for something 2.5 hours long without commercials. I look forward to tonight's conclusion, before commenting further.)

A lack of total success in Bush's conservative social agenda does not mean that he has not tried. Bush did succeed in halting federal funds for embryonic stem cell research. This type of research is not opposed on the basis of valid science (science has not had enough time to determine the ultimate viablility of embryonic stem cells in therapeutic settings). Rather, this was done to please his conservative base whose religious views dictate that destroying an embryo is akin to taking a life. As an example of failed social policy, Bush's attempt to pass through a constitutional amendment defining marriage as only between a man and woman (again done to please members of the Christian-right whose only basis on why they have such hatred of homosexuals is that God says it's wrong). Granted, Clinton signed into law the DoMA, but stopped short of making it constitutionally impossible for same-sex marriage to take place. Clinton kept the decision up to the states, whereas Bush would have decided it on a Federal level. Both still fall short of true equality, however.

Continuing on his social policy, Bush (to please the Christian-right) has pushed for abstience-only programs to be the first and foremost method of preventing/reducing the risk of unwanted pregnancy and contraction of an STD. Nevermind the fact that most respected health organizations indicated that while abstience is the only 100% effective method, to stress that above all else is to cause more harm (as we all know, telling teenagers simply to wait is almost a useless move).

As you can see, Bush has pushed through, or has tried to push through, legislation that has or would have taken away certain rights, or would have had or has had a detrimental effect on the nation.

Part of the Christian-right ideology is to force their religiously-based views on the nation through political means. (See: American Family Association, Family Research Council). These organizations strongly support Bush and his fellow conservatives. If these organizations have their way, they *would* force people to do things. Interesting enough, if one takes a rather broad look at it, how much different are the end goals of Islamic extremist terrorists and groups like FRC or AFA? After all, they both want to see the US as a one religion nation. DISCLAIMER: I took a wide degree of latitude in that comparison -- FRC and the AFA do not use nor advocate the use of violence to meet their goals.
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      09-11-2006, 08:25 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
The (try to, haha) shows that you are not really looking to solve any of our country's problems, and it seems you want to see the war in Iraq fail to score political points. This is what I can't stand about the Democrats. Since they are out of power they are happy when something bad happens to our country so they can use it to score political points. I think they want us to lose the war as long as it hurts Bush.

About your so called "faltering economy", I guess you don't know 1.9 million jobs were created in the last year and our unemployment rate is 4.6% one of the lowest if not the lowest in history. I'm sure you are aware this was much higher during the booming economy of the Clinton administration. What exactly have you been told about our economy that gives you any indication it is anything but excellent?
The "try to haha" comment was in reference to Bush, and my lack of confidence in his ability to fix the aforementioned issues. As for solving the nation's problems (as I see them), I do what I can. I vote for people who I feel can make the biggest difference for the nation, and I donate what I can to organizations that support causes I feel are worth championing.

As for scoring points when a political group is out of power, now who's being naive? Any party not in power will do whatever they can, Democrat or Republican (Monica Lewinsky and the impeachment of Clinton, anyone?).

Economy woes? Please see: http://www.thetruthaboutgeorge.com/economy/index.html, http://thinkprogress.org/2006/08/29/bush-record/. I know that these are leftist biased sites, but they do give their sources.
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      09-11-2006, 08:27 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Casuist
Please, if you don't mind, would name names and identify your sources?



Yeah, absolutely anything that cannot be viewed without bias should be "pulled off the air". Huh?



This is a docudrama about what led up to 9/11 based on what happened that led up to 9/11. In other words: facts that led up to 9/11.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with "spreading" blame. It has to do with the FACTS that led up to 9/11. Nothing more, nothing less.



I agree that there are more pressing issues, such as BORDER CONTROL and ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. This is the primary ROOT cause of our laughable education system. Yeah, No Child Left Behind is, indeed, a complete and total joke.

I also agree we need to leave other counties alone and let them figure it out for themselves.

I also agree the war in Iraqi is bullshit. We need to pull out of there and let those folks kill each other. Why continue to do it for them.

I don't know where you live, but here in the United States our economy is BOOMING.



Here are a couple of quotes that will explain precisely why America is doomed:

"The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of it's continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities . . . " -- Theodore Roosevelt 1915

"You cannot become thorough Americans if you think of yourselves in groups. America does not consist of groups. A man who thinks of himself as belonging to a particular group in America has not yet become an American." -- Woodrow Wilson 1915
Is that you, CMD? (I mean this seriously). Your views are very similar, and you both drive the "2006 World Car of the Year." Though this profile says "Left Coast" for location...
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      09-11-2006, 10:39 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
Several groups is not indicative to me of the entire population...
Out of a population of around 27 million, the 600 people they asked in the poll you cited is? What kind of information do you have about those 600 people? For all I know they could have been 600 prisoners just released by allied forces.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
If the Iraqi government seriously came to us and said, "Good job, go home," do you think we would leave? Just pull up and move out? I think that Bush saying that we will leave whenever you [Iraq] are ready is simply him manipulating the public's opinion ("See, we just went in there to help Iraq, and as soon as they're ready, we'll leave." ::trademark Bush smirk:: ). In the other thread ("Approach On The War In Iraq") you indicate your belief that the US wants Iraq as a friendly ally. I don't think the US will ever leave, and if they do, it will be on the US' timetable, not on the Iraqi's.
Your just wrong about this, what are your sources in our government?

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Originally Posted by nostrum09
I am not opposed to creative liberties in film-making, so long as those creative liberties are mentioned, especially in a case where people would otherwise believe 100% everything being said... Many people treat the news they see on TV as the last word. It's responsible journalism to make sure that every effort is taken to retain accuracy or inform people of the lack therof.
Can you name any recent ant-war or anti-Bush films or documentarys that have had any type of disclaimer? You are a fool if you think the news is the truth. There is no law anywhere saying anything reported in the news has to be true. I personally have been on the local news, as well as national news programs. Sometimes good was said about me, sometimes bad was said about me, but 100% of the time it was inaccurate and never corrected. To get around slander and liable laws the news simply makes up the fact they got the information from a "source", and report the story as "the source said" rather than they said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
Bush did succeed in halting federal funds for embryonic stem cell research...
Did you know Clinton was the first president to reject federal funding for stem cell research? He is a hate monger too right?
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      09-11-2006, 10:42 AM   #34
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Has anyone else watched this mini-series? I would prefer responses from people who have experience in anti-terrorism, national security, law enforcement or related fields.
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      09-11-2006, 11:18 AM   #35
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Quote:
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Oh freaking please . . . .
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      09-11-2006, 11:28 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richypc
You make such grand claims and offer sources from sites so far to the right it's pathetic. I guess any other source will be considered part of the "liberal media" to you. You should really brush up on your history. If you defended some Republican strong points on the war and a few other issues you would'nt come off as bad. But defending every Republican agenda, is making you look like an ass. You don't need to be a liberal to see it either.

After the Spanish American War the U.S. took possesion of the Phillipines, which in itself spark the Philippine-American War. Thousands of Philpinos died fighting for their indpendence. After Spain's defeat the Philppines was suppose to be given back to Philippinos. But instead the U.S. sent over a 100,000 troops to crush the rebellion. So much for going to war with Spain with the bullshit excuse of freeing these people from Spain's tryannical rule.

More U.S. soldiers died fighting there then from fighting the Spanish! And hundreds of thousands of Philppino's would die from famine and disease. All for what, to set up naval bases farther into the pacific. The Spanish-American war itself, I can go as far to say was fabricated. The battle ship Maine, which was the rallying point for the U.S. to go to war was sunk by the U.S. government. Spain has for a long time believed this to be the case, and to this day, they still do. The Maine was not sunk by a Spanish mine, it was self "lnflicted damage" that caused it to go down, this is a fact. Just imagine, if the inquiries sent to investigate, were legit in the first place, and studied the damage of the ship they would've discovered that it was at the very least an accident. The whole war would've been avoided. But, of course this was not the governments intent, not at all.

All governments have done this in the past, not just the U.S. They look for pretexts to go to war, or push an agenda. Just like your Bushy did in Iraq, I don't know if it takes history buffs to see how obvious it was. I know a lot more people are opening there eyes and questioning this adminstrations motives on almost every issue. There are other issues with pretextes written all over them, The Gulf of Tonkin incident, the Sinking of the Lusitania(which was in fact carry munitions to Britain). I don't claim a political party, I do claim I know my history very well, well enough to call any adminstrations agendas bs.
I don't want to be offensive, however I can tell by your apparent beliefs that you've most likely been educated at one of our esteemed far left-wing, liberal universities. How else could you believe in that revisionist bullshit? Your knowledge of history is completely skewed left. It you want to be taken seriously come a little closer to center, otherwise you just appear to be a conspiracy theory wacko. And so far it appears that you are.
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      09-11-2006, 11:31 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
Is that you, CMD? (I mean this seriously). Your views are very similar, and you both drive the "2006 World Car of the Year." Though this profile says "Left Coast" for location...
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      09-11-2006, 12:13 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBob
Nah, last I heard he moved to Tijuana and opened a taco stand.
I heard the same thing except instead of opening a taco stand he is working as a coyote, although I used the Weekly Standard as my source so it's probably bullcrap.
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      09-11-2006, 12:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Out of a population of around 27 million, the 600 people they asked in the poll you cited is? What kind of information do you have about those 600 people? For all I know they could have been 600 prisoners just released by allied forces.



Your just wrong about this, what are your sources in our government?


Can you name any recent ant-war or anti-Bush films or documentarys that have had any type of disclaimer? You are a fool if you think the news is the truth. There is no law anywhere saying anything reported in the news has to be true. I personally have been on the local news, as well as national news programs. Sometimes good was said about me, sometimes bad was said about me, but 100% of the time it was inaccurate and never corrected. To get around slander and liable laws the news simply makes up the fact they got the information from a "source", and report the story as "the source said" rather than they said.

Did you know Clinton was the first president to reject federal funding for stem cell research? He is a hate monger too right?
Who are the several groups you refer to? I haven't seen you try to qualify your observations.

How am I wrong about my opinion of the government? I didn't say that Bush DIDN'T say what he said, I simply said that I am of the opinion that he is two-faced on this issue and is not ready to completely exit an area of potentially great importance (with respect to Iran and such). What are YOUR sources in the government?

We've been through this already. Anything which is presented as news can of course be (and most of the time is) biased. The problem here lies with public perception. Michael Moore is well known as a staunch liberal. People are FAR less likely to blindly believe what he says than most anyone else. ABC is a major network, and in the eyes of many, is a network which every night brings them the news. While you and I realize that the news is often misleading/skewed/false, there are doubtless many people who are naive, or who perhaps don't care to put much thought into it. Thus, there are some who would, in the complete absence of any disclaimer, believe that what they saw on ABC was 100% the truth.

It was probably a wise choice of ABC to air the disclaimer. I watched last night's part, and will watch tonight's. Had they not aired the disclaimer, I would have been less inclined to watch any future ABC programming, but probably would still watch this mini-series.

Are you against the disclaimer?
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      09-11-2006, 12:36 PM   #40
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Forgot to post this: "An Alternative September 11 History"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14753927/site/newsweek/

Interesting reading.
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      09-11-2006, 12:42 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Did you know Clinton was the first president to reject federal funding for stem cell research? He is a hate monger too right?
Eeek, I've forgotten two things this time around!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/science...es/050413.html

Not sure where PBS stands on the political spectrum, but I do see the point you were making about Clinton. He was the first President to have a negative impact on federal funding for stem cells. It just took Bush to deliver the final blow.

They both suck on that account!
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Last edited by nostrum09; 09-11-2006 at 02:11 PM.
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      09-11-2006, 02:16 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
Who are the several groups you refer to? I haven't seen you try to qualify your observations.
Groups include:
Iraqi National Congress
Kurdistan Democratic Party
Patriotic Union of Kurdistan
Islamic Movement of Kurdistan
Constitutional Monarchy Movement
and the Iraqi National Accord


Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
How am I wrong about my opinion of the government? I didn't say that Bush DIDN'T say what he said, I simply said that I am of the opinion that he is two-faced on this issue and is not ready to completely exit an area of potentially great importance (with respect to Iran and such). What are YOUR sources in the government?
You are wrong because it is your opinion. Neither of us make policy for the US, so I will cite the President's policy as my source. Unless you know some inside information, it is irresponsible and frankly libelous to say the President is lying just because it is your opinion that he is. My point of view is not my opinion, instead I was telling you what our stated policy is.

On a side note...what exactly leads you to think the President is a liar? I find it interesting the President (Clinton) that was proven to be a liar most on the left believe everything he says, but for some reason don't believe a word President Bush says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
Thus, there are some who would, in the complete absence of any disclaimer, believe that what they saw on ABC was 100% the truth.
Those are the people who are constantly making the same arguments as you. If you look at the ratings though, most Americans do not get their news from the traditional "mainstream" nightly news. Since 9-11, most Americans are sick of the anti-American bias in those programs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
It was probably a wise choice of ABC to air the disclaimer. I watched last night's part, and will watch tonight's. Had they not aired the disclaimer, I would have been less inclined to watch any future ABC programming, but probably would still watch this mini-series.

Are you against the disclaimer?
No, I think it is a good policy. The thing that I am opposed to is the scene where the leader of the Northern Alliance was flying in a helicopter and his hair was not blowing around. I was quite disappointed that they did not precede the scene with a disclaimer which should have read "actors were not flying in actual helicopters".
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      09-11-2006, 02:25 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
Eeek, I've forgotten two things this time around!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/science...es/050413.html

Not sure where PBS stands on the political spectrum, but I do see the point you were making about Clinton. He was the first President to have a negative impact on federal funding for stem cells. It just took Bush to deliver the final blow.

They both suck on that account!
PBS = far left + government funded which basically means if they were a private business they would be out of business for lack of viewers.

Thanks for admitting the truth though about Clinton. One thing I must say is this post illustrates the difference between you and I. I am aware there is people trying to kill me and my family and you are worrying about some stupid stem cell. At this time in history winning the war on terror trumps everything. It seems you are living in some sheltered utopia where you can worry about those things. Personally I don't know what a stem cell is, and don't care what a stem cell is and I think your full of poop if you say you know all about these stem cells. Either that or you have way too much time on your hands. (disclaimer:lol j/k not meant to be offensive)
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Last edited by pawarrant; 09-11-2006 at 07:41 PM.
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      09-11-2006, 03:09 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
PBS - far left + government funded which basically means if they were a private business they would be out of business for lack of viewers.

Thanks for admitting the truth though about Clinton. One thing I must say is this post illustrates the difference between you and I. I am aware there is people trying to kill me and my family and you are worrying about some stupid stem cell. At this time in history winning the war on terror trumps everything. It seems you are living in some sheltered utopia where you can worry about those things. Personally I don't know what a stem cell is, and don't care what a stem cell is and I think your full of poop if you say you know all about these stem cells. Either that or you have way too much time on your hands. (disclaimer:lol j/k not meant to be offensive)
pawarrant:

I agree with you that the war on terror trumps everything. And that's why it makes me very angry that America's borders are wide open. Did you know that along one 5 mile stretch in Arizona alone more that 1,500 illegals enter this country every night?

Why is our President not doing anything about this?
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