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      11-16-2014, 04:07 AM   #1
1fastdoc
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Michelin Pilot Super Sport 265 vs 275

I researched the hell out of this and debated for a while before deciding to upsize from the 265/35-19 to the 275/35-19. There is also another thread around here discussing the difference in weight (3 lb each) and the amount of rubber. I figured I'd snap the pick below to show how dramatically different they are. I had previously bumped the front up from 245 to 255 and definitely noticed it behaved better when entering a fast turn (street, haven't tracked it). It will be interesting to see how it feels when I go from a 255/265 setup to the new 255/275 setup. I suppose I'll have more understeer with the increased stagger.

Anyway, here they are. The 275 above is mounted.
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      11-16-2014, 04:11 AM   #2
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And before anyone asks, I'm standing behind the 265. In person it is obviously more narrow, the pic is deceiving.

That 265 is brand new btw. The car was in an accident and the body shop refused to let me put larger tires on the rear. They would only mount what it came in with. So when I took possession I pulled the wheels and brought them to Discount Tire to get a new pair of tires, leaving me stuck with a new 265 and a used one with 7/32 of tread left. Not sure what the hell I'll do with them.
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      11-16-2014, 01:06 PM   #3
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Does anyone have any pics of how 275 looks on the stock width wheels?
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      11-16-2014, 01:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastmike View Post
Does anyone have any pics of how 275 looks on the stock width wheels?
220 or 359's?
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      11-16-2014, 01:21 PM   #5
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There are a couple of versions of this tyre....is this the BMW * 100Y load version?
I think there is also a 96Y and a 100Y version without the * designation.
Just wondering why the rain channels are so different.
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      11-16-2014, 01:24 PM   #6
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I've had all kinds of acceptable alternative sizes and the stock sizes are better all around.
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      11-16-2014, 02:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
There are a couple of versions of this tyre....is this the BMW * 100Y load version?
I think there is also a 96Y and a 100Y version without the * designation.
Just wondering why the rain channels are so different.
Going up in size, they make a step change in block width, but I thought that occurred at 255s. I have the PSS in 255/35-19 and 275/35-19, and the 255s have the smaller block size like the 265 pictured (and hence larger tread channels), so I guess that switchover occurs at the 265 width.
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      11-16-2014, 03:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4corners View Post
I've had all kinds of acceptable alternative sizes and the stock sizes are better all around.
I find that surprising. BMW even went with 255/275 on the new F8x M3/4 on the same 9" and 10" wheel widths as the competition package wheels on the E9x M3.

245/265 is probably fine for the 220M wheels, but is too narrow for the 359M wheels.
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      11-16-2014, 03:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
I find that surprising. BMW even went with 255/275 on the new F8x M3/4 on the same 9" and 10" wheel widths as the competition package wheels on the E9x M3.

245/265 is probably fine for the 220M wheels, but is too narrow for the 359M wheels.
The new car is completely different. They designed the F8x and tested it to run those tires. As they did with the E9x.
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      11-16-2014, 05:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1fastdoc View Post
220 or 359's?
220m my tires will probably be need to be replaced soon debating 265 or 275.
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      11-16-2014, 05:06 PM   #11
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I tried the PSS's in 255/275, there was a difference in feel and looks. I liked the looks but the stock sizes felt the best. I did not find stock size PSS's lacking for grip at all. Stock sizes for me on the street. Function > form.
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      11-16-2014, 07:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastmike View Post
220m my tires will probably be need to be replaced soon debating 265 or 275.
Ah, I have mine on 359's. They basically "fit" the rim. The 265's were a bit stretched.
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      11-16-2014, 07:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4corners View Post
The new car is completely different. They designed the F8x and tested it to run those tires. As they did with the E9x.
I really doubt that it makes that much of a difference. Remember that the ZCP cars sit 10 mm lower and have wider wheels, yet use the exact same tires as the non-ZCP. If the different car setups dictated different tires you likely would have seen it with the ZCP but you didn't. More likely BMW had a shit load of 245/265 PS2s on hand per their contract with Michelin and slapped them on every E9x M3 that came off the line, come hell or high water.
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      11-17-2014, 10:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1fastdoc View Post
Ah, I have mine on 359's. They basically "fit" the rim. The 265's were a bit stretched.
This is exactly what America's Tire told me. I was forced into upsizing by an unfortunate flat during a localized backorder of 265s. Going with 275s was on my mind but I hadn't decided yet. An estimated 2 week delivery made the decision easy. Now I'm running 245/275 with 15/12 spacers I'm going to 10mm in the rear soon to calm things down.

The 275 just looks better on the ZCP wheel. I'm getting test pipes and a tune to offset the weight increase






Last edited by grantmax; 11-17-2014 at 10:31 PM.
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      12-06-2014, 07:08 AM   #15
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With any move away from the stock tire sizes, something will get compromised for any type of gain in another area. This is basically why BMW chose the sizes they did....they are the best compromise, all things considered.

Let's start with the front.....

If you go wider than 245, you will increase grip, but you start to loose subjective steering responsiveness, and you will increase weight, noise and rolling resistance (hence decreased fuel economy). If you increase the rear, you will gain grip but you will increase understeer, weight, noise and rolling resistance.

Keep in mind, the wheel/tire set-up is optimized for spirited street driving which is where 98% of M3 owners spend most of their time with their M3. If you are tracking, it becomes a different story entirely as you are really focusing on the dynamics of the vehicle being constantly driven at 8/10ths and beyond on a perfectly smooth roadway.
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Last edited by LarThaL; 12-16-2014 at 08:18 PM.
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      12-07-2014, 02:17 PM   #16
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LarThal, you're awesome man!!

To the OP, I hope you can learn from his advice as he points out when you deviate from oem spec specifics, other aspects surely will be compromised.
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      12-08-2014, 12:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent-GHQ View Post
LarThal, you're awesome man!!

To the OP, I hope you can learn from his advice as he points out when you deviate from oem spec specifics, other aspects surely will be compromised.
I'm quite happy with the 255/275 setup, the car feels solid.

Are you are aware that the ZCP wheels are the exact same as the M3 GTS wheels?

Are you also aware that the GTS comes shod with 255/285's?

As Larthal stated, mass production cars are all about compromise. Hate to tell you, but most M3's spend their entire lives docily driven on the street. Not mine.

Also, while they may fit the 220 wheels well, the 245/265's are stretched tight on the wider ZCP wheels. Hitting a good bump ruptured the sidewall on one of my front tires last year. The bigger size has a slightly meatier sidewall and it isn't stretched so thin.

I agree with Hujan, I think BMW kept the 245/265 despite the wider ZCP wheel for cost and simplicity. It's not the best compromise.
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      12-08-2014, 01:58 AM   #18
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Calling the tires the car was fitted with from the factory optimal is like calling 414hp optimal. Adequate, yes, but improvement is always possible
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      12-08-2014, 04:23 AM   #19
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Yes I'm aware that the gts wheels are the same as the zcp but I didn't know their tire sizes were different. I have no intentions to track my car so I can see why other m3 enthusiasts would deviate from oem spec specifics. That said, mine will be limited to spirited driving in regular daily roads.

But you mentioned it feels solid. So how would you describe the feel of the car if putting on bigger sized tires? More weight I presumed?
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      12-08-2014, 10:12 AM   #20
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Took my car to the car in stock size PSSes. The car understeered a lot. It just didn't want to turn in. Would 255/275 help with understeer?
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      12-08-2014, 08:22 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent-GHQ View Post
Yes I'm aware that the gts wheels are the same as the zcp but I didn't know their tire sizes were different. I have no intentions to track my car so I can see why other m3 enthusiasts would deviate from oem spec specifics. That said, mine will be limited to spirited driving in regular daily roads.

But you mentioned it feels solid. So how would you describe the feel of the car if putting on bigger sized tires? More weight I presumed?
Below are the tires/sizes I've run and how it felt. Bear in mind, they can't truly be directly compared because I also changed from PS2 to PSS. None of the tires were worn beyond half way when they were changed.

PS2 245/265: Nimble, quick turn in at lower speeds but some unpleasant understeer during a hotter turn. Came out of turn and got on it too quick (on a clean track), thus putting the ass end of the car before the front end. Not fun.

Sears tried to fix a leak and bubbled the sidewall on the 265 trying to get it off the wide rim. The 275's weren't available so I went to a 265 PSS.

PS2 245 / PSS 265: The ass end felt like it planted much better through turns. No track but took it to Tail of the Dragon and Cherohala skyway. Put 240 miles on the car before noon, in mostly wet conditions. Stability control NEVER came on. Understeer was still an issue at times on the back roads.

Blew my front tire hitting the junction between asphalt and concrete on a highway overpass. Bumped a size AND changed PS2 to PSS.

PSS 255/265: Definitely less understeer. I liked this setup but all of a sudden I found it much easier to get the ass end to kick a bit through turns. Never lost it but the stability control popped up from time to time. My car was wearing these tires when my friend spun it 180 on a highway and ate a guardrail. Decided it was time to get more staggered.

PSS 255/275: I've only had the car back on the road like this for about 100 miles. So far it feels well planted. It it not as nimble as the stock setup and I definitely feel it a little more in the wheel. However, the stability control has not tried to intervene they way it would on wet roads with the 255/265 setup.

If I were to keep it to basic daily driving without the need to take on/off ramps at triple digit speeds I would stay with the 245/265. But if that were the case I would put them on a Lexus, not an M3.
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      12-08-2014, 08:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///S65 View Post
Took my car to the car in stock size PSSes. The car understeered a lot. It just didn't want to turn in. Would 255/275 help with understeer?
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. I suspect you mean from stock PS2's or Conti's to the PSS but same sizes? I can't really answer that one. Too soon on the newest setup. You'll have less understeer with a less staggered setup.

From a mathematical standpoint, the difference percentage wise between 255 to 275 is less than 245 to 265 but it's probably negligible.

Now, from the initial pic, you can see there is significantly more rubber on the 275 than the 265. The 245 and 255 look nearly identical IIRC. So, more rubber on the rear = greater effective stagger = more understeer. That's my rationale. But, I'm a doc, not an engineer, and I'm just making this shit up.
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