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      05-12-2009, 12:06 AM   #1
farbarg
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new brake pads Q&A

Folks,

I've been reading through the informative posts regarding brake prep for track days and decided to go for some carbotechs. That said, I've read that one must turn the rotors as well when changing to pads of a different compound. For you folks who change pads for track days, what's your opinion?
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      05-12-2009, 08:00 AM   #2
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I didn't turn the rotors.

What is more important is to bed in the pads prior to asking them for full braking power on the track. My Ferodo DS2500s were a little weak the first few sessions out. I believe this was due to not completely bedding them in prior.

Many track pads are likely to wear your rotors significantly. Some people keep a second set of rotors for track use.
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      05-12-2009, 12:19 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I didn't turn the rotors.

What is more important is to bed in the pads prior to asking them for full braking power on the track. My Ferodo DS2500s were a little weak the first few sessions out. I believe this was due to not completely bedding them in prior.

Many track pads are likely to wear your rotors significantly. Some people keep a second set of rotors for track use.
OK, thanks for the information. The carbotech web site was pretty hot and heavy about how one *had* to turn the rotors before putting on a new compound. Perhaps that's true for competition, but not for an HPDE. I'm looking forward to having the time/cash/skills when having a spare set of rotors makes sense.
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      05-12-2009, 09:53 PM   #4
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I was just wondering why you opted for the Carobotech's over the Pagids or Hawks?

Be prepared to bleed your brakes at least once each day, so take along the right tools, a container of compatible high-temp fluid, and a proper disposal container.
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      05-12-2009, 10:16 PM   #5
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Joe, how did your pads hold up after the weekend? With your 265 tires up front, you must have done more braking than I did with stock 245's.

I noticed that my stock pads and rotors are a little shot. I think at least one of my rotors might be warped as I get a very light seesaw action in the wheel under braking. I didn't set the e-brake this weekend and I didn't stand on the brake pedal.

BTW, your car made a weird sound as you were bombing down the front straight. Not sure what it was, but if I were to guess, it was probably your fronts rubbing or something.
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      05-12-2009, 11:16 PM   #6
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I used up about 2/3rds of the useful life of the DS2500 pads. My brakes are 'groaning' under average braking, but I still have the track pads in.

You most likely have pad deposits on the rotor from getting the pads too hot. This hopefully will go away after a week or so of normal driving. I doubt your rotors are warped.

No clue what the noise was, but I hit the rev limiter coming out of 11 onto the front straight once or twice. Maybe that's what you heard?

Pleasure meeting you, Mr BRDHNTR.
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      05-12-2009, 11:45 PM   #7
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I've used carbotech for years, you made a great choice. I am not sure why Carbotech says to turn the rotors - likely to alleviate any call backs for other manufacturer's pad material on the rotor causing uneven wear or material application, or rotors that are warped. I've never turned my rotors and I have swapped quite a bit - not on my M3, but my z06 (I haven't tracked the m3). Granted, the rotors I used were all in great shape, as I assume yours are.

Just do a proper bed in procedure as per Carbotech's suggestion/directions.

What compound did you buy? XP10?
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      05-12-2009, 11:57 PM   #8
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Trying to find someone to turn two piece rotors is highly unlikely. You could have them surface ground to remove the old material if you want but I've found that it's unnecessary.
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      05-13-2009, 11:48 AM   #9
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Joe, thanks for the info, and the pleasure was mine! Hopefully I'll see you at another track event.

I am now addicted to "this track stuff". As a beginner, the OEM pads worked just fine for me, but I would not run another track event on these same pads. Should I buy a set of track pads to put in before I go to an event, and swap them out when I go home?
I am thinking that I could probably get two weekends out of a set at my skill level.

Also, from what people said at the event a lot of the pad preferences seemed to be based on what people are used to. People were saying "well, there might be better pads out there, but I know how my car is going to react with these, so I stick with them.". That makes a lot of sense to me, but doesn't help me chose the pads I buy.

So, what do I get (please be specific), and where do I buy them?
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      05-13-2009, 12:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRDHNTR View Post
Joe, thanks for the info, and the pleasure was mine! Hopefully I'll see you at another track event.

I am now addicted to "this track stuff". As a beginner, the OEM pads worked just fine for me, but I would not run another track event on these same pads. Should I buy a set of track pads to put in before I go to an event, and swap them out when I go home?
I am thinking that I could probably get two weekends out of a set at my skill level.

Also, from what people said at the event a lot of the pad preferences seemed to be based on what people are used to. People were saying "well, there might be better pads out there, but I know how my car is going to react with these, so I stick with them.". That makes a lot of sense to me, but doesn't help me chose the pads I buy.

So, what do I get (please be specific), and where do I buy them?
Patience, young grasshopper.

The selection of track pads is still pretty limited. I really believe you get what you pay for with brake pads. That said, I would order front and rear Pagid RS-19s if you are ordering today. Just my opinion. I think they are the least likely to do harm to your rotors (wear, scoring or deposits). If you aren't going out again for a month or so, wait and see what else becomes available. A lot of people have good things to say about the Carbotech pads, but I have no experience with them.

I'm still waiting for the Performance Friction pads to come out. They may or may not be a good choice. As you noted, I'm comfortable with them and have had good experiences.

I think you should get two weekends out of any decent pad. Just put them in a few days ahead of time and make sure they are bedded in properly.

Dave Zeckhausen's Brake Bedding Info

I recommend Zeckhausen if they have the pads you want.
You have big Marks card from last weekend (fast silverstone sedan)? He sells Pagids at a very good price.
James Clay from Bimmerworld posts here and supplies brake pads on his site. He's a top notch guy and has good prices.
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      05-13-2009, 12:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRDHNTR View Post
I am now addicted to "this track stuff". As a beginner, the OEM pads worked just fine for me, but I would not run another track event on these same pads. Should I buy a set of track pads to put in before I go to an event, and swap them out when I go home?
I am thinking that I could probably get two weekends out of a set at my skill level.

So, what do I get (please be specific), and where do I buy them?
As a beginner, you should get 3 events out of the Carbotechs - Carbotech states that you can run them right down to the metal backing plate, so that gives you a little more material than expected. If I went light on braking, I could do 3-4 events on a set. I would not go higher than xp10 if you are planning on driving them on the street (XP10 is as hard as you'd want to go if you are just starting out IMO anyway). The reason is that the higher the compound level you go, the less they stop when cold. Even so, with the xp10 you must be careful to allow for extra stopping distance if you are planning to run them on the street where enough heat will never enter the pad to reach full braking capacity. I'm not saying you should do it (legal disclaimer) but I do it because I have enough to worry about at the track as it is.

You shouldnt be disappointed in the carbotechs. Try the XP10 or lighter. Dont bother with AX6 (Panther plus), its too light for track use. I normally order from PFYC.com
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      05-13-2009, 12:19 PM   #12
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You can also buy carbotech pads directly from carbotech. Mike Jr. is their sales guy, and he is very helpful.

http://www.ctbrakes.com/
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      05-13-2009, 12:22 PM   #13
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You have big Marks card from last weekend (fast silverstone sedan)? He sells Pagids at a very good price.
That's the guy I was trying to get you to call for pads. He is a very good guy. Can vouch for him. Who was faster out there? You in your DCT, or Mark in his 6MT?
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      05-13-2009, 12:29 PM   #14
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I also tracked the OEM pads two times and have what you described as a "seesaw action" felt through the steering. There is some pad material deposited on my rotors for sure and hope it will go away soon. (I tried to move the car when I stoped between track sessions, not to heat the rotor on the same spot, but still the OEM pads are too soft, too easy to deposte them on the rotor. It's just not safe to track them seriously.
I also go with the Carbotech XP-10, will be installed this weekend. Pagids were my first choice, but anavailable right now. Carbotech will not last for too long anyway.
I don't think you have to bleed your breaks after a few track days (3-4) if you have good fluid like Castrol SRF. At least I will not do it. I always bleed them when change pads but not between.
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      05-13-2009, 12:45 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
I was just wondering why you opted for the Carobotech's over the Pagids or Hawks?

Be prepared to bleed your brakes at least once each day, so take along the right tools, a container of compatible high-temp fluid, and a proper disposal container.
It's clear that the community's collective opinion is that the Pagids are the truth and light for now. However, I just couldn't stomach the 750 or so needed to buy them (and, since I don't have the time, I'll need the shop to swap them in). There were some bad experiences with the Hawks, so I went with the XP10's. They're also about 1/2 as expensive as the Pagids, and, at my level, I'm likely not to notice the perf. gain of the Pagids.
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      05-13-2009, 01:34 PM   #16
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That's the guy I was trying to get you to call for pads. He is a very good guy. Can vouch for him. Who was faster out there? You in your DCT, or Mark in his 6MT?
Ha Ha. Mark races fairly regularly and was on R-comp tires. He blew past me so fast I couldn't even follow for half a lap to watch his lines.
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      05-13-2009, 02:10 PM   #17
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Ha Ha. Mark races fairly regularly and was on R-comp tires. He blew past me so fast I couldn't even follow for half a lap to watch his lines.
Last I saw him at NHIS, he was on street rubber. Was he on the stock 18" rims?

When I complained to him about my brakes overheating, he told me to go faster!
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      05-13-2009, 04:23 PM   #18
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Last I saw him at NHIS, he was on street rubber. Was he on the stock 18" rims?

When I complained to him about my brakes overheating, he told me to go faster!
Yup. Stock 18s with r-compound tires.
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      05-13-2009, 04:28 PM   #19
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Yup. Stock 18s with r-compound tires.
You must have been hitting the limiter in 4th coming out of turn 4 (if 6MT hits it, DCT must hit it even on street rubber since the gearing is shorter). Did you shift coming out of that turn? If so, how did that work? Were you able to go flat out turns 2-3-4 on street rubber?
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      05-13-2009, 05:48 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Last I saw him at NHIS, he was on street rubber. Was he on the stock 18" rims?

When I complained to him about my brakes overheating, he told me to go faster!
Mark was definitely hauling the mail. I went for a ride in my instructor's 600hp Porsche track car. We could see Mark, but by the time we got through the traffic he was already past the next couple cars we would have to pass.

I don't think that I will be getting back out there until the NJ chapter is at Summit Point on July 25th, so I'll wait a month and give Mark a call.

Oh and to answer your question: Yes, he was on stock 18" rims. I don't remember the width of the tires he was running, but I remember seeing 35 sidewalls (I figured that it didn't matter if the speedo was wrong on the track).
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      05-13-2009, 06:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
You must have been hitting the limiter in 4th coming out of turn 4 (if 6MT hits it, DCT must hit it even on street rubber since the gearing is shorter). Did you shift coming out of that turn? If so, how did that work? Were you able to go flat out turns 2-3-4 on street rubber?
In my e46 I would be foot to the floor from exit of 1 (4th gear) to the bus stop (shift to 5th on the back straight). I was feathering it in the e90. Once I got out of 2 I'd put my foot down and hit 5th at the transition from turn 3 to 4.
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      05-13-2009, 06:47 PM   #22
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In my e46 I would be foot to the floor from exit of 1 (4th gear) to the bus stop (shift to 5th on the back straight). I was feathering it in the e90. Once I got out of 2 I'd put my foot down and hit 5th at the transition from turn 3 to 4.
OK. That's broadly consistent with my experience--except for the 4th-5th shift in the 3-4 transition as that was happening at the exit of 4 for me. Can't remember when the two tranmissions top out in 4th respectively, but DCT will get there at lower speed and I bet it's nice not to worry about the shift while turning.
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