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      09-15-2009, 10:10 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by m3bs View Post
This is exactly my concern. I spent a day at the track with my 135 last week, and had real issues with the inability to precisely modulate the power.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5849329
Were you in Sport mode? Sport mode makes modulation almost impossible.
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      09-15-2009, 10:20 AM   #354
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Were you in Sport mode? Sport mode makes modulation almost impossible.
There is no sport mode on a 135. It was much harder to modulate using the higher boost JB3 maps than the stock program, but I had issues even with the stock map.
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      09-15-2009, 10:46 AM   #355
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Speaking of that, now that VAG owns controlling stake in Porsche, there are rumblings of the Panamera going away after the initial generation. Just rumors, mind you. Supposing that comes to pass, though, can the Cayenne be close behind, perhaps? After all, no need for overlap with the Q7 (which is arguably much better looking anyway), especially if you "rebadge" (it would of course be a little more than that) the Turbo as the Q7 S and Turbo S as Q7 RS.
I think the life cycle of the Panamera is approximately another 6 years so it's probably too early to right it off. I actually don't think it will be a great success, it's not pretty in comparison to others and it's pricing places it above what most would class as it's main competition.

Regarding the possible drop of the Cayenne, I would only expect this to be true if the US market for these products decreased. What I would expect is the Cayenne to get smaller instead of the usually trend to get bigger.

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That seems to be the prevaling rumor and where most folks are putting their money. I have to admit I was surprised by this myself given that Audi is rumored to have a 4L turbocharged (or is it supercharged - I can't recall for sure) V8 in development for the upcoming A7.

But I am surprised you are calling this foolish at such an early juncture. Just like we cannot make any conclusions about BMW's move to turbocharging for the M passenger cars, we cannot really pass any judgement yet on Audi's (rumored) decision to stay naturally aspirated with the RS5 for now. Perhaps they have advanced the FSI technology for even better emissions and economy. It all remains to be seen.
It is foolish to fit a V8 engine at the moment. Regardless of how much of an improvement they have made the emission would still be high than what will be achieved with either a smaller turbo or supercharged engine. Another thing, they have already the right engine for the RS5 being used in another model and that is the new 2.5L 5cyl unit of the TT-RS, it's seriously de-tuned for the TT-RS (this I know) and it's not only light but tuneful to listen to. They also have the technology to dual-charge it if required with an additional supercharger to reduce lag further while still keeping weight down.

Some say that such a small capacity engine would hurt potential sales but then surely the same should be said for the 911turbo compared to it's key rivals, competing in a world where 8 or 10 cylinders and larger capacities are the norm and it's been doing this for as long as I have known and consistently out selling the competition. The reason I think it's been so successful mainly because the performance hasn't ever suffered.

I suppose I'm more a fan of turbo units than normally aspirated because I don't class the downfalls of the slight lag present to hinder the enjoyment one single bit, especially when you count up the positives.
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      09-15-2009, 10:55 AM   #356
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Absolutely agree, although NA cars are by no means exempt for overheating, they to appear to be much more efficient than FI cars in most cases.
Maybe you missed the number of successes that VW have had in the last few Nurburgring 24hr races held annually. Their 2.0TFSI engine seems perfectly able to cope with such an event when other N/A engined cars are falling by the wayside.

Don't look at the problems the 135i and kin have as a true reflection of what other brands are like.
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      09-15-2009, 11:26 AM   #357
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Maybe you missed the number of successes that VW have had in the last few Nurburgring 24hr races held annually. Their 2.0TFSI engine seems perfectly able to cope with such an event when other N/A engined cars are falling by the wayside.

Don't look at the problems the 135i and kin have as a true reflection of what other brands are like.
Oh no not at all, and please donīt get me wrong, I am a real fan of both FI and NA. I own both and love them both etc..., etc...., and further, I have absolutely no doubt that some FI engines donīt heat up as fast as some NA engines. I meant my comment is "generally" NA engines do not heat up as fast as FI engines but did not mean this as all as an unbreakable rule. I guess you could say that I am one of the funny ones that appreciates the pros and cons of each approach and like them both in their own way if well done.
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      09-15-2009, 12:02 PM   #358
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I think we're digressing here...anyway, some comments:

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I think the life cycle of the Panamera is approximately another 6 years so it's probably too early to right it off. I actually don't think it will be a great success, it's not pretty in comparison to others and it's pricing places it above what most would class as it's main competition.
Seems like Porsche fails to realize that the Panamera - at least in Europe - only would be successful if it were attractive as a company car. Looking at the lease rates they're asking for it's not. Why would people pay that much more compared to the 7, the A8 or the S?



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It is foolish to fit a V8 engine at the moment. Regardless of how much of an improvement they have made the emission would still be high than what will be achieved with either a smaller turbo or supercharged engine. Another thing, they have already the right engine for the RS5 being used in another model and that is the new 2.5L 5cyl unit of the TT-RS, it's seriously de-tuned for the TT-RS (this I know) and it's not only light but tuneful to listen to. They also have the technology to dual-charge it if required with an additional supercharger to reduce lag further while still keeping weight down.

Some say that such a small capacity engine would hurt potential sales but then surely the same should be said for the 911turbo compared to it's key rivals, competing in a world where 8 or 10 cylinders and larger capacities are the norm and it's been doing this for as long as I have known and consistently out selling the competition. The reason I think it's been so successful mainly because the performance hasn't ever suffered.
The difference between the 911 Turbo and Audi is that the 911 never was available with an engine having more than 6 cylinders. Audi, though, had an V8 S5 and now a V6 S4, marketing won't let them have a better car with a lower cylinder count. Quite silly if you ask me, but that's how people think.


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      09-15-2009, 12:29 PM   #359
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It is foolish to fit a V8 engine at the moment. Regardless of how much of an improvement they have made the emission would still be high than what will be achieved with either a smaller turbo or supercharged engine.
Well I guess we'll have to wait and see. By your logic here it seems that no car in existence should be using a naturally aspirated motor, instead favoring a smaller turbo'd motor instead. While the recent trend is toward forced induction I think it is much too early to say that naturally aspirated motors will or should go away. I'll bet that the folks at Audi know what they are doing and have a lot more tricks up their sleeves.

Like any other performance car the success of the RS5 will be measured in performance compared to rivals and previous generations as well as sales numbers. I strongly doubt the performance part will be an issue. And I don't think emissions will be a factor to most folks in this market. As long as Audi can meet emissions regulations (which I am sure they can) and produce it at the right price-point, it will sell.

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Another thing, they have already the right engine for the RS5 being used in another model and that is the new 2.5L 5cyl unit of the TT-RS, it's seriously de-tuned for the TT-RS (this I know) and it's not only light but tuneful to listen to. They also have the technology to dual-charge it if required with an additional supercharger to reduce lag further while still keeping weight down. Some say that such a small capacity engine would hurt potential sales but then surely the same should be said for the 911turbo compared to it's key rivals, competing in a world where 8 or 10 cylinders and larger capacities are the norm and it's been doing this for as long as I have known and consistently out selling the competition. The reason I think it's been so successful mainly because the performance hasn't ever suffered.
By that same token the S4/S5 could or should also use this motor which again I don't think would necessarily be a better choice. The smaller displacement motor will have to work harder to produce similar performance. Clearly Audi developed the supercharged V6 for a reason, and it appears to be a success given the reviews (not sure how sales are). I don't know why they would not choose this motor over the I5 if they wanted a smaller turborcharged motor in the upcoming RS4/RS5. Also, the very fact that the S4/S5 already use this supercharged V6, mean putting the I5 in the RS4/RS5 would almost surely be a marketing mis-step.
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      09-15-2009, 01:47 PM   #360
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Well I guess we'll have to wait and see. By your logic here it seems that no car in existence should be using a naturally aspirated motor, instead favoring a smaller turbo'd motor instead. While the recent trend is toward forced induction I think it is much too early to say that naturally aspirated motors will or should go away. I'll bet that the folks at Audi know what they are doing and have a lot more tricks up their sleeves.

Like any other performance car the success of the RS5 will be measured in performance compared to rivals and previous generations as well as sales numbers. I strongly doubt the performance part will be an issue. And I don't think emissions will be a factor to most folks in this market. As long as Audi can meet emissions regulations (which I am sure they can) and produce it at the right price-point, it will sell.
The RS5 probably does have less problem with emission than say the M3, unlike the Beemer all RS models are sold in very small numbers. But the problem I see is that when you look around at the very recent models of similar performance that has been launched you see a trend and that is a dramatic reduction in emissions, all 997 with the exception of the GT2 are class leading and as such will appeal to company businessmen, the staple diet of these motors.

I gut feeling is that the next M3 will produce an emissions figure no higher than 230, and as the S5v8 has a figure of 288 it's highly unlikely that incresing it's power by close on 100hp will reduce this figure.

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By that same token the S4/S5 could or should also use this motor which again I don't think would necessarily be a better choice. The smaller displacement motor will have to work harder to produce similar performance. Clearly Audi developed the supercharged V6 for a reason, and it appears to be a success given the reviews (not sure how sales are). I don't know why they would not choose this motor over the I5 if they wanted a smaller turborcharged motor in the upcoming RS4/RS5. Also, the very fact that the S4/S5 already use this supercharged V6, mean putting the I5 in the RS4/RS5 would almost surely be a marketing mis-step.
I'm a real champion of the new SCv6 but having driven both the S4 and the TT-RS I can tell you that the difference in character between the two is marked, the 5 cyl engine has a rawness that is seldom seen in modern engines. The figures mimic that of the S4 but it's performance feels so much more beef in comparison.

I would normally agree that smaller capacity and being asked to produce the same means more stress but this thing has so much potential it's unreal.

Think 600hp.
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      09-15-2009, 02:00 PM   #361
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Porsche was smart one special suv. Audi one special suv. Bmw stupid x3 x5 x6 !!! Now thay are so deep in r&D that thay can't go back and rework it's thinking going forward for the suv market. Now thay decide to do this to the m3! Thay had it right 1 series 3 series 5 series 6 series 7 series and the M with a little z4 and a special x5 suv. That's it.Thay are in to deep with suv's. And the m3 should of been their all around driving track star!!!!JMO
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      09-15-2009, 02:25 PM   #362
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Porsche was smart one special suv. Audi one special suv. Bmw stupid x3 x5 x6 !!! Now thay are so deep in r&D that thay can't go back and rework it's thinking going forward for the suv market. Now thay decide to do this to the m3! Thay had it right 1 series 3 series 5 series 6 series 7 series and the M with a little z4 and a special x5 suv. That's it.Thay are in to deep with suv's. And the m3 should of been their all around driving track star!!!!JMO
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      09-15-2009, 03:59 PM   #363
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I'm a real champion of the new SCv6 but having driven both the S4 and the TT-RS I can tell you that the difference in character between the two is marked, the 5 cyl engine has a rawness that is seldom seen in modern engines. The figures mimic that of the S4 but it's performance feels so much more beef in comparison.

I would normally agree that smaller capacity and being asked to produce the same means more stress but this thing has so much potential it's unreal.

Think 600hp.


600HP from a 2.5L engine = BIG turbo lag
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      09-15-2009, 04:26 PM   #364
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Porsche was smart one special suv. Audi one special suv. Bmw stupid x3 x5 x6 !!! Now thay are so deep in r&D that thay can't go back and rework it's thinking going forward for the suv market. Now thay decide to do this to the m3! Thay had it right 1 series 3 series 5 series 6 series 7 series and the M with a little z4 and a special x5 suv. That's it.Thay are in to deep with suv's. And the m3 should of been their all around driving track star!!!!JMO
What are you talking about? The X3 is the best selling in its class for the last 5 years or so (based on the E46 BTW) , the X5 the best as well and the X6 is built on the X5 do it did not cost a lot to build. The X ///Ms were also cheap in the grand scheme. The past Z4 M was the cheapest to build in along while- the ///M after means less development as in they did not modify it to no end. Oh and the X1 is based on the E91.

Some people do not get how cars are designed and life spans- these people are going to be shocked with the new 5 series and the next 3- which is build on the same chassis as the next X3 and the 3 Gt etc....
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      09-16-2009, 04:21 AM   #365
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What are you talking about? The X3 is the best selling in its class for the last 5 years or so (based on the E46 BTW) , the X5 the best as well and the X6 is built on the X5 do it did not cost a lot to build. The X ///Ms were also cheap in the grand scheme. The past Z4 M was the cheapest to build in along while- the ///M after means less development as in they did not modify it to no end. Oh and the X1 is based on the E91.

Some people do not get how cars are designed and life spans- these people are going to be shocked with the new 5 series and the next 3- which is build on the same chassis as the next X3 and the 3 Gt etc....
His comments were also wrong that Audi only had one SUV, they like most manufacturers have 2 (Q7 & Q5) with a smaller Q3 to follow shortly. The amount of manufacturers with 2 or more far and away out number the ones with only 1 model.

There is something quite appealing to sitting higher than the norm in something that gives the impression how ever false that you are safer than a normal car. The problem with them (SUV) is that very few offer a decent driving experience and even fewer combine this with a decent level of ride comfort (that excludes all of the X models which boarder on harsh), leaving only the ML, Q5 and Cayenne as true all-round sports SUVs.

I think BMW's best new model to date is the 5 Gt, isn't not going to appeal to the sporty driver but as an all-rounder it's right up there and should sale well for them. I'm surprised that they haven't got a CLS equivalent, I thought this would have been a niche model right up BMW's street, maybe they only like to invent a niche instead of copy.
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      09-16-2009, 10:12 AM   #366
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I gut feeling is that the next M3 will produce an emissions figure no higher than 230, and as the S5v8 has a figure of 288 it's highly unlikely that incresing it's power by close on 100hp will reduce this figure.
You could be right - we'll see. Like I said, as long as they can meet regs then it should be fine.

Quote:
Think 600hp.
Well any motor can make big power with big boost as long as the block and internals can hold together. I have my doubts about the reliability of a 2.5L motor making 600hp. If the 2.5L I5 is this good, then they could just get rid of the V8s, V10s, and V12s and use only the 2.5L . Obviously they won't be doing that.
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      09-16-2009, 10:14 AM   #367
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His comments were also wrong that Audi only had one SUV, they like most manufacturers have 2 (Q7 & Q5) with a smaller Q3 to follow shortly. The amount of manufacturers with 2 or more far and away out number the ones with only 1 model.

AND...don't forget that Mercedes has the GL, the ML and now the GLK
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      09-16-2009, 10:58 AM   #368
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You could be right - we'll see. Like I said, as long as they can meet regs then it should be fine.
I am 100% sure that is will meet the regulations, that was never in doubt. It's just that everyone is going to be down around the 230g/km mark in the next 2 or so years and if the RS5 is miles away from that then it's sales will suffer.

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Well any motor can make big power with big boost as long as the block and internals can hold together. I have my doubts about the reliability of a 2.5L motor making 600hp. If the 2.5L I5 is this good, then they could just get rid of the V8s, V10s, and V12s and use only the 2.5L . Obviously they won't be doing that.
My point was that the internals are more than up to the job, in fact the engine has been tested in a TT with 600hp without any dire problems. It's never going to replace a V8, V10 or V12 because there will always be a market for these engines, though I reckon it's for cars more exotic than either an M3 or RS5.

Everyone here is in agreement that weight is king, especially around the nose and this is even more true for Audis than anything else. I can't remember the figures but I think the complete R5 engine is about 50kgs lighter than the v8. That's a huge figure and goes a long way to curing Audi's weight distribution and thus improving it front-end bite and steering feel. It's this first couple of seconds of turn-in that Audis suffer most, it's where understeer happens, once the car is settled it's grip and traction is undeniable and it pulls round the rest of the corner with the best of them.

I would lay any money down that if Audi fitted this engine under it's nose it would be the best car they had ever produced, better even than the R8 and I say that because I am in no doubt the torsen quattro system is far superior than the system used in the R8 and Gallardo.

But enough about Audi, we are here to discuss the next M3.
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      09-16-2009, 11:16 AM   #369
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I am 100% sure that is will meet the regulations, that was never in doubt. It's just that everyone is going to be down around the 230g/km mark in the next 2 or so years and if the RS5 is miles away from that then it's sales will suffer.



My point was that the internals are more than up to the job, in fact the engine has been tested in a TT with 600hp without any dire problems. It's never going to replace a V8, V10 or V12 because there will always be a market for these engines, though I reckon it's for cars more exotic than either an M3 or RS5.

Everyone here is in agreement that weight is king, especially around the nose and this is even more true for Audis than anything else. I can't remember the figures but I think the complete R5 engine is about 50kgs lighter than the v8. That's a huge figure and goes a long way to curing Audi's weight distribution and thus improving it front-end bite and steering feel. It's this first couple of seconds of turn-in that Audis suffer most, it's where understeer happens, once the car is settled it's grip and traction is undeniable and it pulls round the rest of the corner with the best of them.

I would lay any money down that if Audi fitted this engine under it's nose it would be the best car they had ever produced, better even than the R8 and I say that because I am in no doubt the torsen quattro system is far superior than the system used in the R8 and Gallardo.

But enough about Audi, we are here to discuss the next M3.
Agreed weight is king!!! Of course, everything else equal.
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      09-16-2009, 05:17 PM   #370
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the suv market is gone. If mercedes has 3 suvs and audi 2 suv. bmw has 4 or 5. What does iit mean to bmw? The R&D is what costs a lot or these suv's! Not the way there made. Thay say it is cheaper. But it is peanuts to R&D. The R&D is kept secret on thier quarterly reports. Thay show the diffrence in price from a suv and a passenger car. Go ask gm and jeep chrysler and hummer. Wrong direction for bmw! The x3 is number one because it is a small truck like. Thay are about to brake like gm chrysler jeep and hummer. Thay will change the course in about 1 or 2 years. The turbo 6 is not the fix. It's the way people think now.
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      09-16-2009, 07:57 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by mvagusta View Post
the suv market is gone. If mercedes has 3 suvs and audi 2 suv. bmw has 4 or 5. What does iit mean to bmw? The R&D is what costs a lot or these suv's! Not the way there made. Thay say it is cheaper. But it is peanuts to R&D. The R&D is kept secret on thier quarterly reports. Thay show the diffrence in price from a suv and a passenger car. Go ask gm and jeep chrysler and hummer. Wrong direction for bmw! The x3 is number one because it is a small truck like. Thay are about to brake like gm chrysler jeep and hummer. Thay will change the course in about 1 or 2 years. The turbo 6 is not the fix. It's the way people think now.
+1

Within the lines of what I am saying in my first paragraph of my earlier post
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      09-16-2009, 08:29 PM   #372
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the suv market is gone. If mercedes has 3 suvs and audi 2 suv. bmw has 4 or 5. What does iit mean to bmw? The R&D is what costs a lot or these suv's! Not the way there made. Thay say it is cheaper. But it is peanuts to R&D. The R&D is kept secret on thier quarterly reports. Thay show the diffrence in price from a suv and a passenger car. Go ask gm and jeep chrysler and hummer. Wrong direction for bmw! The x3 is number one because it is a small truck like. Thay are about to brake like gm chrysler jeep and hummer. Thay will change the course in about 1 or 2 years. The turbo 6 is not the fix. It's the way people think now.
I disagree that the SUV market is gone. There are a lot of parents out there that like the space and higher driving position the SUV offers. I know that my wife wishes she still had her Expedition instead of the sedan she drives now.

When gas prices sky rocketed in the US people over reacted and dumped their SUVs in favor of more fuel efficient cars. Now that prices have settled down trucks and SUVs are back in demand. I know that local Ford dealers have a hard time keeping Expeditions on their lots because Ford has cut production so much and demand has gone back up. Also, the used values on trucks and SUVs have been climbing in recent months due to people trying to get back into larger vehicles.

I don't think the large SUV is going to survive much longer, but I think you will continue to see demand for roomy vehicles that don't look like minivans or wagons (I'm not knocking wagons, but a lot of Americans don't dig wagons). Car makers will figure out ways to give customers the space they want in an efficient and stylish package.
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      09-17-2009, 05:42 AM   #373
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I am 100% sure that is will meet the regulations, that was never in doubt. It's just that everyone is going to be down around the 230g/km mark in the next 2 or so years and if the RS5 is miles away from that then it's sales will suffer.
I still don't think emissions are remotely on the mind of most potential RS5 purchasers. I am sure this is at least true in the US, though things may be different in Europe and elsewhere. If you surveyed performance car buyers in this country today I think you'd find that 95% or so have no idea what the emissions output of their new vehicle is.

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But enough about Audi, we are here to discuss the next M3.
Agree. I do think that while the RS5 and other vehicles are not strictly on topic, they provide interesting contrast (if rumors pan out) to BMW's new strategy.
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      09-17-2009, 06:21 AM   #374
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I still don't think emissions are remotely on the mind of most potential RS5 purchasers. I am sure this is at least true in the US, though things may be different in Europe and elsewhere. If you surveyed performance car buyers in this country today I think you'd find that 95% or so have no idea what the emissions output of their new vehicle is.
I would have to research the US policy on emissions to see what affect such a possible drop in emissions would have, though you are right in thinking that in Europe emissions play a big role especially in the company car buyer's market. Also I think from what I have read on this forum that Audi aren't strong in the US or Canada and probably look on this market as second or even third importance when choosing possible engines and spec.

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Agree. I do think that while the RS5 and other vehicles are not strictly on topic, they provide interesting contrast (if rumors pan out) to BMW's new strategy.
The only reason I wanted back off the subject of the RS5 is because everyone sees me as pro-Audi and to continue discussing it when you thread was all about the next M3 only adds fuel to the fire. Now if the RS5 final engine spec was officially confirmed then that's a different matter because it would have some kind of a bearing on the future M3, a product to gauge what it would be up against.
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