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      09-14-2009, 12:31 PM   #331
mapezzul
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Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
I use my cars on track the high rev bmw engines were perfect as always. I am not to keen to take a turbo bmw engine to the track with all those heatbuild up problems turbo brake down etc.

My 135i oil temp was going to the roof on track and it wasn t even that hot.

I don t won t buy such cars
i want to buy cars which i can drive all day on track without engine problems and heating problems. Brakes is an other issue. But the /M engines were always great.
You are comparing a mass produced car that is not specifically designed for track use, to the future of ///M motors.

All ///M products are designed for the track and as such are designed with different protocols. While a BMW is a BMW it is not an ///M. I personally dislike it when people compare a 135 or 335 to anything ///M has designed as they are not even in the same league (period).

I have run an X6 ///M in 90+ degrees with 90% humidity on the track for over hot 40 laps and it did not get hot at all, and that was in pre-production form. The guys at ///M make sure they can be driven at the 'Ring lap after lap and they are the biggest enthusiasts there are... no one here is going to out drive any of them or spend as much time on the track as them.

What do BMW engineers and development personnel do for vacation? They head to the 'Ring or another track in Europe to teach or to just beat the snot out of a car for a week.

Bernd Limmer, specifically told me that these new ///M engines have so much cooling it will never be an issue- to the point that they have auxiliary fans to move air when you are in stop and go driving. They are over engineered to say the least and have many backups just in case.

With ceramics, advanced metal and lubrication turbos are very reliable- just like people complain about diesels, these are not the same today. It is like comparing DOS to the latest Windows or Mac operating system.

There are lots of future technologies being explored some of which most people would not even think of, as BMW is out of the box and trying new things.

Just please don't compare a regular model BMW to an ///M- it is a bit ridiculous and is like a Camry vs. 328i thread..
-M
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      09-14-2009, 01:07 PM   #332
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good, keeping these cars simple will probably yield the best results.
And do you call the current M3 engine or the M-DCT "simple"?
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      09-14-2009, 01:35 PM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
You are comparing a mass produced car that is not specifically designed for track use, to the future of ///M motors.

All ///M products are designed for the track and as such are designed with different protocols. While a BMW is a BMW it is not an ///M. I personally dislike it when people compare a 135 or 335 to anything ///M has designed as they are not even in the same league (period).

I have run an X6 ///M in 90+ degrees with 90% humidity on the track for over hot 40 laps and it did not get hot at all, and that was in pre-production form. The guys at ///M make sure they can be driven at the 'Ring lap after lap and they are the biggest enthusiasts there are... no one here is going to out drive any of them or spend as much time on the track as them.

What do BMW engineers and development personnel do for vacation? They head to the 'Ring or another track in Europe to teach or to just beat the snot out of a car for a week.

Bernd Limmer, specifically told me that these new ///M engines have so much cooling it will never be an issue- to the point that they have auxiliary fans to move air when you are in stop and go driving. They are over engineered to say the least and have many backups just in case.

With ceramics, advanced metal and lubrication turbos are very reliable- just like people complain about diesels, these are not the same today. It is like comparing DOS to the latest Windows or Mac operating system.

There are lots of future technologies being explored some of which most people would not even think of, as BMW is out of the box and trying new things.

Just please don't compare a regular model BMW to an ///M- it is a bit ridiculous and is like a Camry vs. 328i thread..
-M
Exactly, finally someone who sees the difference between what BMW have done in the past with turbo technology (35i) and what they are doing in the future with their M turbo cars (X5/6M, M5 and M3).
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      09-14-2009, 02:37 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
You are comparing a mass produced car that is not specifically designed for track use, to the future of ///M motors.

All ///M products are designed for the track and as such are designed with different protocols. While a BMW is a BMW it is not an ///M. I personally dislike it when people compare a 135 or 335 to anything ///M has designed as they are not even in the same league (period).

I have run an X6 ///M in 90+ degrees with 90% humidity on the track for over hot 40 laps and it did not get hot at all, and that was in pre-production form. The guys at ///M make sure they can be driven at the 'Ring lap after lap and they are the biggest enthusiasts there are... no one here is going to out drive any of them or spend as much time on the track as them.

What do BMW engineers and development personnel do for vacation? They head to the 'Ring or another track in Europe to teach or to just beat the snot out of a car for a week.

Bernd Limmer, specifically told me that these new ///M engines have so much cooling it will never be an issue- to the point that they have auxiliary fans to move air when you are in stop and go driving. They are over engineered to say the least and have many backups just in case.

With ceramics, advanced metal and lubrication turbos are very reliable- just like people complain about diesels, these are not the same today. It is like comparing DOS to the latest Windows or Mac operating system.

There are lots of future technologies being explored some of which most people would not even think of, as BMW is out of the box and trying new things.

Just please don't compare a regular model BMW to an ///M- it is a bit ridiculous and is like a Camry vs. 328i thread..
-M
I appreciate your knowledge and the insider insight you provide on this forum. My only concern is you are constrained by the nature of your job and can paint only a positive picture as to the direction the M Division is heading.

Think about it, the M drivers and engineers forced to test drive these huge turbo charged whales at the track. It's pathetic. I mean what do they have to say about their new whale driving mission behind close doors? I am sure it is not pretty. Do you think they would prefer testing a new CSL? The M Division, let alone BMW, does not sell a single car that can compete with Porsche, Audi, GM or Nissan. Even Lexus, recently thought of as cars made for wealthy retirees, will soon catapult past them at the track. Thats right, Lexus. The once hallowed M Division as a true Motorsport Division is now a figment of BMW marketing's imagination. BMW's brain drain chose to chase the easy money of creature comfort options, leading to a life of obesity and ultimately a loss of respect and fear by it's once defeated rivals.

How about this idea. The M Division cuts out the pork and addresses the obesity issue by putting themselves on a calorie restricted diet, until they nurse themselves back to health. Any takers?
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      09-14-2009, 03:11 PM   #335
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I appreciate your knowledge and the insider insight you provide on this forum. My only concern is you are constrained by the nature of your job and can paint only a positive picture as to the direction the M Division is heading.

Think about it, the M drivers and engineers forced to test drive these huge turbo charged whales at the track. It's pathetic. I mean what do they have to say about their new whale driving mission behind close doors? I am sure it is not pretty. Do you think they would prefer testing a new CSL? The M Division, let alone BMW, does not sell a single car that can compete with Porsche, Audi, GM or Nissan. Even Lexus, recently thought of as cars made for wealthy retirees, will soon catapult past them at the track. Thats right, Lexus. The once hallowed M Division as a true Motorsport Division is now a figment of BMW marketing's imagination. BMW's brain drain chose to chase the easy money of creature comfort options, leading to a life of obesity and ultimately a loss of respect and fear by it's once defeated rivals.

How about this simple idea. The M Division cuts out all the pork and addresses the obesity issue by putting themselves on a calorie restricted diet until they nurse themselves back to health. Any takers?
I and they would agree with you wholeheartedly. They much rather be testing a CSL, but things the way they are that was no longer an option.

BMW and ///M are well aware that they have no competition with Porsche at the moment and that is an area they are working on. As for Audi I guess you are referring to the R8 and that is bits and pieces from Lambo and is used as part of the marketing budget... BMW as an independent does not have that luxury. GM- went belly up for a reason- you can't expect a 12K sub compact designed for volume to support (subsidize) your higher end models that you price lower than the competition and take a loss on, it does not work.

The X5 and X6 ///M cars were created to fulfill a small niche market and at the same time get technology they had been working on with suppliers to market. The next ///M version to be created will be the ///M5 so they could not necessarily wait until then (and the systems in current form may not be the ideal fit for that vehicle) and sit on the technology or worse yet have someone else come to market with it and then BMW is following- not a good thing.

There have been recent developments- end of BMW F1 that will now allow for more efficient (read:lighter) cars to be built. There is new facilities for metal and composites as well as the new wind tunnel.

The concept being displayed in Frankfurt is the new age of BMW, expect more things along these lines than not. Also take note that it is a mid-engined diesel; BMW is doing what it needs to survive. ///M is also doing what it needs to do to survive- the reason you are seeing M Sport kits hitting the US, and M adaptive suspension in the Z4, more tech will be used and shared with BMW but not what makes the core models the core models. The letter before the name is more development from ///M- after is less.

The 6er is next up for the chopping block and I expect a huge change in it. I have openly and honestly criticized that car from the get go.... check out one of the podcasts and you will see what I mean.

It is the one modern BMW that is not what it really should be... and that is where Porsche is.... but does Porsche have a car to compete with BMW or does Audi? Not really and that is where things have diverged a bit- sedans etc. Audi is improving but they are always a bit behind.

The only real competition is the CTS-V with the ///M5 and and that will be remedied soon enough.

Nissan is Nissan and that car flat out wails on the track but take it anywhere else and good luck.

A bit of rambling here but you get the idea- I will be happy to state that there is an issue when there is one; I just think that weight will always be an issue thanks to safety and and features- I rather have thicker steel to save me in a crash than shave a few hundred pounds off in all honesty...
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      09-14-2009, 03:37 PM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8000 View Post
KERS on the wheels or on the turbos (or both)?
KERS at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
And do you call the current M3 engine or the M-DCT "simple"?
I'll bite my tongue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
I and they would agree with you wholeheartedly. They much rather be testing a CSL, but things the way they are that was no longer an option.

BMW and ///M are well aware that they have no competition with Porsche at the moment and that is an area they are working on. As for Audi I guess you are referring to the R8 and that is bits and pieces from Lambo and is used as part of the marketing budget... BMW as an independent does not have that luxury. GM- went belly up for a reason- you can't expect a 12K sub compact designed for volume to support (subsidize) your higher end models that you price lower than the competition and take a loss on, it does not work.

The X5 and X6 ///M cars were created to fulfill a small niche market and at the same time get technology they had been working on with suppliers to market. The next ///M version to be created will be the ///M5 so they could not necessarily wait until then (and the systems in current form may not be the ideal fit for that vehicle) and sit on the technology or worse yet have someone else come to market with it and then BMW is following- not a good thing.

There have been recent developments- end of BMW F1 that will now allow for more efficient (read:lighter) cars to be built. There is new facilities for metal and composites as well as the new wind tunnel.

The concept being displayed in Frankfurt is the new age of BMW, expect more things along these lines than not. Also take note that it is a mid-engined diesel; BMW is doing what it needs to survive. ///M is also doing what it needs to do to survive- the reason you are seeing M Sport kits hitting the US, and M adaptive suspension in the Z4, more tech will be used and shared with BMW but not what makes the core models the core models. The letter before the name is more development from ///M- after is less.

The 6er is next up for the chopping block and I expect a huge change in it. I have openly and honestly criticized that car from the get go.... check out one of the podcasts and you will see what I mean.

It is the one modern BMW that is not what it really should be... and that is where Porsche is.... but does Porsche have a car to compete with BMW or does Audi? Not really and that is where things have diverged a bit- sedans etc. Audi is improving but they are always a bit behind.

The only real competition is the CTS-V with the ///M5 and and that will be remedied soon enough.

Nissan is Nissan and that car flat out wails on the track but take it anywhere else and good luck.

A bit of rambling here but you get the idea- I will be happy to state that there is an issue when there is one; I just think that weight will always be an issue thanks to safety and and features- I rather have thicker steel to save me in a crash than shave a few hundred pounds off in all honesty...
I couldn't agree more.


Best regards,
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      09-14-2009, 04:37 PM   #337
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I agreed with everything up to the point when you mentioned Audi being always behind, in reality, especially commercially Audi are well ahead of BMW. They are moving into new markets before anyone else and gaining an important foot hold.

You say that the R8 is a parts bin from Lamborghini, I say it's the other way round. Everything that you see in the Gallardo is Audi through and through. The only thing Audi has borrowed in their awd system.

Back to BMW, unlike most here we few understand why they are producing the cars they do and why there's no CSL, etc. BMW are a small company when compared to the might of the likes of Toyota or VAG, there is not an endless pot of money and their R&D cost fall short of Audi never mind VAG. They are a great company for developing niche motors which in my opinion have kept them independent and out of the grips of one of the big boys. But in these present difficult times what they do in the foreseeable future will determine if this continues to be true.
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      09-14-2009, 04:55 PM   #338
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It is like comparing DOS to the latest Windows
Hey, DOS was more reliable .
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      09-14-2009, 05:09 PM   #339
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I agreed with everything up to the point when you mentioned Audi being always behind, in reality, especially commercially Audi are well ahead of BMW. They are moving into new markets before anyone else and gaining an important foot hold.

You say that the R8 is a parts bin from Lamborghini, I say it's the other way round. Everything that you see in the Gallardo is Audi through and through. The only thing Audi has borrowed in their awd system.

Back to BMW, unlike most here we few understand why they are producing the cars they do and why there's no CSL, etc. BMW are a small company when compared to the might of the likes of Toyota or VAG, there is not an endless pot of money and their R&D cost fall short of Audi never mind VAG. They are a great company for developing niche motors which in my opinion have kept them independent and out of the grips of one of the big boys. But in these present difficult times what they do in the foreseeable future will determine if this continues to be true.
The R8 honestly confuses me to no end but that is a different story. You are correct with your statements on Audi- I need to remember to think globally in terms of the 4 rings, in the US they are not a 1/4 of what they are in the EU. I have had a handful of VAG products last three being A4s so I am well aware of them and I am impressed where they are headed, but with the R&D budget they have they better go somewhere... though there sedans still in terms of drive are behind BMW (that is what I meant), they are moving the engine back and shifting weight but it has taken them a better part of a decade to move the dead engine weight from in front of the axles...

I am looking forward to testing the "new" A3 diesel here in the US very soon and it may actually fill out the garage nicely as a commuter car, but not a driver's car.
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      09-14-2009, 05:20 PM   #340
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Audi do make great commuter cars don't they. Only very rarely do they show true potential, like with the R8 and less so the RS4, though the new S4 is showing promise from the lesser models and it pointing to greater thing from future RS models.

I have always felt the Audi has filled the middle ground between the more extreme M and the more comfortable AMG. It's funny but lately this gap between all three is greatly reducing, with both M and AMG getting close to the RS, in this I meant the M getting more everyday usable and the AMG getting more hard core than ever before.

Was Audi's positioning the right one all along.
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      09-14-2009, 05:23 PM   #341
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I want to balance my car on under and oversteer midcorner with throttle. I have not found one turbo which can do that. You can t get the throttle response of NA in a Turbo.
With a turbo car youre always to late on the gas or there is comming to much. Totally no fun for me.

For the straight line racers it s perfect and it s tuneable. But there are a ton of cars with turbo s nothing special.

If it can not do that what is the purpuse to put ///M Motorsport badge on the boot. Motorsport is race engineering in a street car which can be used on track. To give throttle before a corner and then midcorner you get a sudden burst of NM is NO FUN on track.

If the heavy trucks have turbo s like the x5M and M5 no problem.
But gives us a nice high rev atmo engine in a M3 or even better in a lightweight one series. ///M is motorsport give us a 9000 rpm 320 hp high rev engine in a one series. Just like porsche like they offer a GT3 a car for track junkies. I rather see it happen in a bmw because i like to be more stealty. But if bmw does not make one in the next one series i am gonna buy me a GT3 only because of the high rev atmo engine.
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      09-14-2009, 07:42 PM   #342
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I want to balance my car on under and oversteer midcorner with throttle. I have not found one turbo which can do that. You can t get the throttle response of NA in a Turbo.
With a turbo car youre always to late on the gas or there is comming to much. Totally no fun for me.

For the straight line racers it s perfect and it s tuneable. But there are a ton of cars with turbo s nothing special.

If it can not do that what is the purpuse to put ///M Motorsport badge on the boot. Motorsport is race engineering in a street car which can be used on track. To give throttle before a corner and then midcorner you get a sudden burst of NM is NO FUN on track.
If you honestly believe that the M division will release an M3 that offers a poor or inadequate ability to throttle balance/throttle steer you are free to believe that. Personally I HIGHLY doubt they will. The really question is: will it offer equivalent performance to the current M3.
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      09-14-2009, 08:05 PM   #343
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And do you call the current M3 engine or the M-DCT "simple"?
nope, but its an option. i am almost certain turbos will not...
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      09-14-2009, 08:19 PM   #344
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The R8 honestly confuses me to no end but that is a different story.
A LITTLE OFF TOPIC, but just curious as to why the R8 confuses you?
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      09-14-2009, 08:37 PM   #345
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I want to balance my car on under and oversteer midcorner with throttle. I have not found one turbo which can do that. You can t get the throttle response of NA in a Turbo.
With a turbo car youre always to late on the gas or there is comming to much. Totally no fun for me.
This is exactly my concern. I spent a day at the track with my 135 last week, and had real issues with the inability to precisely modulate the power.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5849329
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      09-14-2009, 09:26 PM   #346
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though there sedans still in terms of drive are behind BMW (that is what I meant), they are moving the engine back and shifting weight but it has taken them a better part of a decade to move the dead engine weight from in front of the axles...
That's because all that family of sedans and coupes are based on a FWD platform, even to this day. That's also why they only offer AWD, since they know a FWD S4, RS4, S5, etc, is not going to fly. They've done a good job pushing the engine as far back as possible, but there's only so much you can do with a FWD platform. That's why I've never been remotely interested in those cars. I don't understand why after decades of competing with MB and BMW no dedicated RWD platform .

But an R8 is a great alternative for those of us who don't think Ferrari is the best MR car . Good day.
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      09-14-2009, 11:38 PM   #347
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bmw will have a tough time topping the v8! Any engine thay put in it will not be as responsive as this last model. There going to focus on the suv's. There aim is not on the m3. It's on the m suv's. I'm going to keep this for some time. I hate to say it. But porsche is a conservative direct company that cares about there base customers, and thay care about what there loyal customers want and think.. You remember the spat thay had with the gtr? You know that bmw stopped caring when thay introduced the m badge to suv's..It smeared itself when thay did this. jmo
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      09-15-2009, 05:29 AM   #348
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MVagusta that s a perfect post my thoughts exactly.
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      09-15-2009, 06:02 AM   #349
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bmw will have a tough time topping the v8! Any engine thay put in it will not be as responsive as this last model. There going to focus on the suv's. There aim is not on the m3. It's on the m suv's. I'm going to keep this for some time. I hate to say it. But porsche is a conservative direct company that cares about there base customers, and thay care about what there loyal customers want and think.. You remember the spat thay had with the gtr? You know that bmw stopped caring when thay introduced the m badge to suv's..It smeared itself when thay did this. jmo
The same thing was said by Porsche owners when the Cayenne was revealed, back then those same people didn't see the bigger picture of the Cayenne boosting Porsche coffers to allow the development of new models and keep the company afloat.

Do you honestly see what BMW is doing to be anything different?

Everyone please get off this moral high ground and accept that sometimes the needs out-weigh the desire.

Porsche are primarily a sportscar manufacturer unlike BMW which is primarily a saloon car manufacturer, as such it needs to meet different demands from it's customers as a whole and that means more overall weight through added luxuries which causes increases in C02 level if you try and maintain performance, unless that is you switch to forced induction.

I have read on other forums that Audi have decided to release the RS5 with a reworked version of the current V8 in the RS4. If true then that's a foolish move long term because emissions is one of the most important selling points in cars today and the future, regardless of the performance on offer.
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      09-15-2009, 06:37 AM   #350
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With all emissions legistlation going bananas as from now on I just dont see all these huze SUVs (such as the Cayennes & X6Ms) going anywhere - not in the long run. I have the feeling that people's mindsets will be (forced to be) changed to smaller / lighter / more eco friendly vechicles, be it SUVs, sedans, coupes or whatever, powered by ultra-efficient power setups.

Pumping money in R&D of larger vechicles & engines is a waste IMO. Pumping money in more efficient, smaller / ligher (thus also better handling) cars is probably the way to go, but then why does everyone need to go FI? Will future FI engines really be more economical (to run & maintain), reliable and able to deliver smooth, lag-free power to the wheels as opposed to NA engines - particulalry under heavy load (=track usage)? Or will compromises need to continue to be made, leaving room in the market for both FI anf NA setups?

Probably more R&D in FI engines will see these setups gradually taking over. But IMO there is much more than just delivering THE optimal car in terms of performance, handling and throttle responce. It has to do with the feeling and this is where NA engines will become all time classics (if they don't make their own way in the future) IMO.

Personally I hate the idea to be forced to end up owning a super-fast car 10 years down the road which feels (or even worst - is!) like a linear, silent, boring electric car with two buttons to drive it (on & off).
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      09-15-2009, 07:57 AM   #351
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Do you honestly see what BMW is doing to be anything different?
I have no problem with HiPo SUVs, including those from BMW. They are definitely needed to keep BMW in the game with their primary competitors and to increase revenue. I just wish they could have figured a way to keep the M brand itself reserved for sports cars, sport coupes, and sport sedans - the types of vehicles most readily associated with Motorsport. Unfortunately, the reality is that the folks in the market for these most ostentatious SUVs will be all the more convinced to fork over the dough if there is an M on the liftgate. Lametable, but if that's what it takes to maximize profit then so be it I suppose.

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Porsche are primarily a sportscar manufacturer unlike BMW which is primarily a saloon car manufacturer...
Speaking of that, now that VAG owns controlling stake in Porsche, there are rumblings of the Panamera going away after the initial generation. Just rumors, mind you. Supposing that comes to pass, though, can the Cayenne be close behind, perhaps? After all, no need for overlap with the Q7 (which is arguably much better looking anyway), especially if you "rebadge" (it would of course be a little more than that) the Turbo as the Q7 S and Turbo S as Q7 RS.

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I have read on other forums that Audi have decided to release the RS5 with a reworked version of the current V8 in the RS4. If true then that's a foolish move long term because emissions is one of the most important selling points in cars today and the future, regardless of the performance on offer.
That seems to be the prevaling rumor and where most folks are putting their money. I have to admit I was surprised by this myself given that Audi is rumored to have a 4L turbocharged (or is it supercharged - I can't recall for sure) V8 in development for the upcoming A7.

But I am surprised you are calling this foolish at such an early juncture. Just like we cannot make any conclusions about BMW's move to turbocharging for the M passenger cars, we cannot really pass any judgement yet on Audi's (rumored) decision to stay naturally aspirated with the RS5 for now. Perhaps they have advanced the FSI technology for even better emissions and economy. It all remains to be seen.
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      09-15-2009, 10:03 AM   #352
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I use my cars on track the high rev bmw engines were perfect as always. I am not to keen to take a turbo bmw engine to the track with all those heatbuild up problems turbo brake down etc.

My 135i oil temp was going to the roof on track and it wasn t even that hot.

I don t won t buy such cars
i want to buy cars which i can drive all day on track without engine problems and heating problems. Brakes is an other issue. But the /M engines were always great.
Absolutely agree, although NA cars are by no means exempt for overheating, they to appear to be much more efficient than FI cars in most cases.
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