BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
Steve Thomas BMW
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-13-2009, 08:01 AM   #309
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
160
Rep
7,507
Posts

Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
A friend of mine would say:



Best regards,
south
I did say that, didn't I.
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 08:40 AM   #310
gr8000
Major
gr8000's Avatar
Greece
22
Rep
1,172
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens, Greece

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to gr8000
I said this again sometime ago in this forum: Why dont they use electric motors to drive turbos? This way they can control optimally their response at any point in time (= elimination of lag) and skip all the complex piping (= simpler system = lighter & more reliable engine). Of course electric motors have to be driven from somewhere (strong battery & baterry charging system) but I think this could be arranged one way or another. Even a combo of exhaust gasses and electrically driven turbos could offer advantages of both worlds (i.e. saving energy and eliminating turbo lag).
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 08:43 AM   #311
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
southlight's Avatar
620
Rep
6,748
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I did say that, didn't I.
Yes, why the slap?


Best regards,
south
__________________
Those forums...WHY NOT?


JOIN THE 6MT CLUB GROUP
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 01:32 PM   #312
spicoli024
Lieutenant
spicoli024's Avatar
United_States
5
Rep
405
Posts

Drives: '06 ZCP M3
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorBlue371 View Post
No whatever is better is better, lighter weight - Same power - in theory better handling - better mods = Better performance car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonigsTiger View Post
Gotta agree with this, whatever is better is better!!
I was kidding, duh. Just trying to stir up so more emotion in this thread
__________________
///M3
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 04:23 PM   #313
Advevo
Captain
47
Rep
920
Posts

Drives: White 1M
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country where the taxes are too high!!

iTrader: (0)

any lag whatsoever is spoiling my fun in driving and will not spend any money on it then.
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 04:31 PM   #314
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
214
Rep
13,937
Posts

Drives: 2015 SO/CSAT F80 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8000 View Post
I said this again sometime ago in this forum: Why dont they use electric motors to drive turbos? This way they can control optimally their response at any point in time (= elimination of lag) and skip all the complex piping (= simpler system = lighter & more reliable engine). Of course electric motors have to be driven from somewhere (strong battery & baterry charging system) but I think this could be arranged one way or another. Even a combo of exhaust gasses and electrically driven turbos could offer advantages of both worlds (i.e. saving energy and eliminating turbo lag).
I think this is essentially the idea behind the use of KERS with a turbo setup - keep the turbos spooled.
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 04:37 PM   #315
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
160
Rep
7,507
Posts

Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
The number of comments like 'if there's lag I won't buy it' or 'N/A is the only way to go for sheer driving pleasure', they all make me laugh. 90~95% of people never ever take they cars on to the track to really feel the benefit of better throttle response and of those only about 15% will really know how to use that added throttle response to see that benefit. Everyone here has bought in the idea of N/A that BMW has advertised throughout the last decade or so without really sitting back and wondering why they need it.

You lot need to get out and try some of the latest turbo cars from the likes of Audi (RS6) and Porsche (997turbo) to see that this belief that turbo lag is something very notice is BS. BMW are bringing the next M5/6 and M3 out with forced induction engines and you better believe it that they will be better cars than the ones they will replace.

I don't believe it, I'm sounding like a BMW PR man here.
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 05:01 PM   #316
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
214
Rep
13,937
Posts

Drives: 2015 SO/CSAT F80 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Everyone here has bought in the idea of N/A that BMW has advertised throughout the last decade or so without really sitting back and wondering why they need it.
I don't think that's true of everyone. You are not giving folks enough credit. I'll agree that some people don't really understand the tradeoffs, but plenty do.

Quote:
You lot need to get out and try some of the latest turbo cars from the likes of Audi (RS6) and Porsche (997turbo) to see that this belief that turbo lag is something very notice is BS.
No need to go to cars that expensive, in fact. The 135i and 335i are great examples of how responsive a turbo motor can be, and anyone can go out and test drive one with no problem. I don't think a lot of people will have an easy time getting a drive in $150k car.

Quote:
BMW are bringing the next M5/6 and M3 out with forced induction engines and you better believe it that they will be better cars than the ones they will replace.
No question they will perform better. But, a 500hp diesel hybrid powertrain would make for better performance too. Now how many people saying they don't care if its turbo or N/A will actually genuinely be interested in an M3 car powered by that type of setup? Few, I'd think.

There's more to a car than how it performs.
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 09:19 PM   #317
zuggerat89
Still waiting...
zuggerat89's Avatar
United_States
10
Rep
888
Posts

Drives: OGV
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Monmouth County, NJ

iTrader: (0)

i was just watching the X5M engine film on bwmusa.com and it sounds pretty responsive at the end. it sounds great too... im excited either way hahahah
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 09:36 PM   #318
elp_jc
Brigadier General
United_States
80
Rep
4,910
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: May 2008
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
90~95% of people never ever take they cars on to the track to really feel the benefit of better throttle response
What the heck are you talking about? Turbo lag is most noticeable when driving leisurely, BEFORE turbo(s) spool up, which even a grandma could feel. It's annoying, especially with a manual tranny.
Another reason most of us don't like turbos is reliability over the long run, especially in hot climates and/or if you track your car. And yet another is there's hardly a fuel consumption benefit of making the same power with a smaller turbo engine; only a cost and packaging benefit. I'd never trade my V8 even for a 600-HP turbo 6; there're more important things than power to some of us . Good evening.
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 11:00 PM   #319
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
222
Rep
10,201
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The number of comments like 'if there's lag I won't buy it' or 'N/A is the only way to go for sheer driving pleasure', they all make me laugh. 90~95% of people never ever take they cars on to the track to really feel the benefit of better throttle response and of those only about 15% will really know how to use that added throttle response to see that benefit. Everyone here has bought in the idea of N/A that BMW has advertised throughout the last decade or so without really sitting back and wondering why they need it.

You lot need to get out and try some of the latest turbo cars from the likes of Audi (RS6) and Porsche (997turbo) to see that this belief that turbo lag is something very notice is BS. BMW are bringing the next M5/6 and M3 out with forced induction engines and you better believe it that they will be better cars than the ones they will replace.

I don't believe it, I'm sounding like a BMW PR man here.
It takes about 10 minutes in the 335i, a very nice FI car to conclude both:

1. Nice turbo, very little lag, very little turbo noise
2. Lag is still there.

I'd like to drive the RS6 but haven't.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 01:31 AM   #320
mixja
Captain
United_States
19
Rep
783
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 DCT Silverstone
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Beverly Hils, CA

iTrader: (1)

More even pulses will likely result in turbine wheel accelerating faster to achieve operating speeds - especially when used in conjunction with a twin scroll system.

I'm curious as to why they didn't alter the cross flow "mappings" such that each scroll gets alternate pulses - the pulses currently for an individual turbo are:

Scroll 1 -> Scroll 2 -> Scroll 2 -> Scroll 1

By changing the mappings to 1 <-> 6, 5 <-> 3, 4 <-> 7 and 8 <-> 2 they could have made it:

Scroll 1 -> Scroll 2 -> Scroll 1 -> Scroll 2

Possibly changing scroll four times per crank cycle caused too much turbulence at the turbine nozzle - whereas changing scroll two times per crank cycle resulted in less turbulence therefore faster turbine wheel acceleration...
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 04:24 AM   #321
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
160
Rep
7,507
Posts

Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
What the heck are you talking about? Turbo lag is most noticeable when driving leisurely, BEFORE turbo(s) spool up, which even a grandma could feel. It's annoying, especially with a manual tranny.
Another reason most of us don't like turbos is reliability over the long run, especially in hot climates and/or if you track your car. And yet another is there's hardly a fuel consumption benefit of making the same power with a smaller turbo engine; only a cost and packaging benefit. I'd never trade my V8 even for a 600-HP turbo 6; there're more important things than power to some of us . Good evening.
Right, for a start you are misunderstand my wording of 'feel', by this I mean experience the benefit and not actually feel it. Turbo lag is more a problem when trying to balance a chassis through a corner, not the sort of thing you do on a public road or driving to and from work.

Another thing, turbo engine do hold a major benefit with economy, were there's no benefit is when you are using all available performance. My wife's GTI averages 33.6mpg and that is not driving it gingerly but driving it as a GTI should be driven. On a long journey it's averaged 40.8mpg, given that this car will run the 0-100mph discipline in under 16 seconds, that is kind of figure that a N/A engine with those performance figures would struggle to even get close to.

Now to the sticky subject of reliability, BMW's experience with turbo technology is very limited in petrol form in comparison to the likes of Nissan, Porsche and Audi, each of which have a very good record of reliability. In fact Volkswagen regularly run factory Golfs and Sciroccos with their 2.0TFSI engines on the Nurburgring 24hr annual race and almost always finish and finish well. If you have a concern about reliability then you should direct this more to BMW than the actual technology.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 04:31 AM   #322
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
160
Rep
7,507
Posts

Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
It takes about 10 minutes in the 335i, a very nice FI car to conclude both:

1. Nice turbo, very little lag, very little turbo noise
2. Lag is still there.

I'd like to drive the RS6 but haven't.
Even reading the comments from tests conducted on the RS6 should let you know that it's an exceptional turbo engine, in my opinion the finest to date from any manufacturer if you take everything from performance, CO2, economy and lag into account.

But after driving the 3.0TFSI in the S4 I think supercharging has more of a benefit at producing more output from a smaller capacity without increasing the amount of potential lag. The only problem with supercharging is possible rev limit and potential tuning. I do know that Audi looked at both forms of boosting for the new engine and found the sc to have more benefits across the board.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 05:39 AM   #323
Advevo
Captain
47
Rep
920
Posts

Drives: White 1M
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country where the taxes are too high!!

iTrader: (0)

i am a racecar driver footie lol

I have owned a 135i sold after 2 months because of the lag. Test Driven 997 turbo (lag) and GT3. The GT3 is much much beter gives much more emotion then the turbo even if it would be slower in a straight line.

If you want a car with turbo buy an 135 or 335i. If you want an M you buy motorsport heritage so stick with highrev NA please.

Turbo engine s are not a piece of engineering it s just an other engine.

Mechanical winded watches are a piece of engineering do we need them no. There are maybe better solutions and cheaper ones. But i like such piece of top engineering. This count s also for high rev engines.

Footie says

Turbo lag is more a problem when trying to balance a chassis through a corner, not the sort of thing you do on a public road or driving to and from work.

This also a big reason why i buy high rev NA. When the engine can t do that there not one euro/dollar going to bmw for such a car.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 06:34 AM   #324
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
160
Rep
7,507
Posts

Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
i am a racecar driver footie lol

I have owned a 135i sold after 2 months because of the lag. Test Driven 997 turbo (lag) and GT3. The GT3 is much much beter gives much more emotion then the turbo even if it would be slower in a straight line.

If you want a car with turbo buy an 135 or 335i. If you want an M you buy motorsport heritage so stick with highrev NA please.

Turbo engine s are not a piece of engineering it s just an other engine.

Mechanical winded watches are a piece of engineering do we need them no. There are maybe better solutions and cheaper ones. But i like such piece of top engineering. This count s also for high rev engines.

Footie says

Turbo lag is more a problem when trying to balance a chassis through a corner, not the sort of thing you do on a public road or driving to and from work.

This also a big reason why i buy high rev NA. When the engine can t do that there not one euro/dollar going to BMW for such a car.
There's more lag with the 997turbo than with the RS6 though you have to admit that for road use it's not really an issue. If this is still a problem with you then look else where.

If you are continuously taking your car to the track then maybe the future M3 won't be for you at which point there is still other products out there to satisfy those needs, but as a mainstream manufacturer of which the M3 plays a big role in the 3 series sales then BMW have to lower it's emission to comply with future laws.

Maybe their intention is to include a Torotrak gearbox and kerrs system which would mask any possible lag problems that might occur, maybe they'll use something else as of yet unseen, but the bottom line is that BMW themselves have openly stated that the next M3 will be force driven.

Everyone is dismissing the very possibility without seeing what BMW come up with. I say don't look at the 35i engine as an example of what the M-Division will come up with.

As I said previously, the RS6 engine is the best of it's type that I have ever driven, maybe the new X6M is even better, I would love the chance to find out sometime.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 07:36 AM   #325
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
southlight's Avatar
620
Rep
6,748
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Maybe their intention is to include a Torotrak gearbox and kerrs system which would mask any possible lag problems that might occur, maybe they'll use something else as of yet unseen, but the bottom line is that BMW themselves have openly stated that the next M3 will be force driven.
The rumor mill says that KERS has been scrapped for the next M3, it's said to be too expensive. This doesn't affect the M5 though.


Best regards,
south
__________________
Those forums...WHY NOT?


JOIN THE 6MT CLUB GROUP
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 10:18 AM   #326
gr8000
Major
gr8000's Avatar
Greece
22
Rep
1,172
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Athens, Greece

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to gr8000
Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
The rumor mill says that KERS has been scrapped for the next M3, it's said to be too expensive.
KERS on the wheels or on the turbos (or both)?
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 10:39 AM   #327
zuggerat89
Still waiting...
zuggerat89's Avatar
United_States
10
Rep
888
Posts

Drives: OGV
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Monmouth County, NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
The rumor mill says that KERS has been scrapped for the next M3, it's said to be too expensive. This doesn't affect the M5 though.


Best regards,
south
good, keeping these cars simple will probably yield the best results.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 10:54 AM   #328
Advevo
Captain
47
Rep
920
Posts

Drives: White 1M
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country where the taxes are too high!!

iTrader: (0)

I use my cars on track the high rev bmw engines were perfect as always. I am not to keen to take a turbo bmw engine to the track with all those heatbuild up problems turbo brake down etc.

My 135i oil temp was going to the roof on track and it wasn t even that hot.

I don t won t buy such cars
i want to buy cars which i can drive all day on track without engine problems and heating problems. Brakes is an other issue. But the /M engines were always great.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 12:02 PM   #329
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
214
Rep
13,937
Posts

Drives: 2015 SO/CSAT F80 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
...but the bottom line is that BMW themselves have openly stated that the next M3 will be force driven.
Ah, but will it include the free one-day M Jedi school?

And a light sabre?
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 12:14 PM   #330
Advevo
Captain
47
Rep
920
Posts

Drives: White 1M
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country where the taxes are too high!!

iTrader: (0)

And will they supply extra turbo s sitting in the boot were normally a bottle of TWS oil sits. For the trackday turbo problems.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST