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      04-28-2009, 09:49 AM   #45
e46e92love
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
A BBK upgrade on an M car for street use is a waste of money IMO.
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      04-28-2009, 10:19 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I would say if you are real committed to producing really quick times then your OEM brakes and pads will last no more than about 3~4 laps tops, or about 15mins continued abuse.
I disagree about the minimal lap time with the OEM set-up. They are good for more time/laps than that. I'm not denying that they can't be improved, but you're discounting the abilities of the stock system.
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      04-28-2009, 10:36 AM   #47
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i do think bbk is a must even if you don't track. I do a 90 miles round trip to work each day and the stock brakes fade noticeably. If I have the money, I would upgrade to the brembo monoblock right away. Better looks and no fade.

IMO the stock brakes suck even for street use. Nothing is wrong with my stock brake btw.
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      04-28-2009, 11:10 AM   #48
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I'm really surprised that some of you are saying the brakes suck even for street use. Edmund's did the fastest stop ever of any car from 60mph when they test drove the M3. (The review is here. Since then they've bettered it but very few cars are in this category.). Yes, Porsche (and Ferrari, and Lambo, etc.) has better brakes. And most BBKs (all?) will be an improvement, but you'll only ever realize the improvement on the track. Get Brembos if you're very serious about racing or want the good looks of the Brembos. Otherwise, the OEM brakes are still top notch.
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      04-28-2009, 12:09 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
I'm really surprised that some of you are saying the brakes suck even for street use. Edmund's did the fastest stop ever of any car from 60mph when they test drove the M3. (The review is here. Since then they've bettered it but very few cars are in this category.). Yes, Porsche (and Ferrari, and Lambo, etc.) has better brakes. And most BBKs (all?) will be an improvement, but you'll only ever realize the improvement on the track. Get Brembos if you're very serious about racing or want the good looks of the Brembos. Otherwise, the OEM brakes are still top notch.
60-0 stops are not a reliable indication of true braking performance.
Magazines and auto manufacturers use this as a baseline because it's a repeatable test from one car to another, and appeals to consumers in the theory of a panic stop. It's a combination of the brakes, tires, and particular road conditions on that particular test day and time.The difference would become much more extreme if you were to repeat those 60-0 stops multiple times, or as you increase the speeds of each stop.

The inherent design differences between an M3 with a sliding caliper and a Porsche Turbo with an opposed piston caliper become much more obvious the harder you push the car. To say that improvements of a BBK are more noticeable and advantageous at the track is a better description than saying "you will ONLY notice the difference at the track". That statement is simply just not true. There are benefits in pedal feel, response, modulation, weight savings, repeatability & consistency, and longevity that all improve even in a daily driving scenario.

Of course it's not an upgrade that should be considered by every M3 owner, and the OEM brakes are quite good for more than 90% of BMW's demographic, but the remaining number of us who drive our cars harder, expect more from our cars, and are making other modifications and changes to our car, can and will greatly benefit from this type of upgrade. The car is capable of providing more horsepower than we will ever be able to maximize, and handles better than most peoples driving skills will ever be able to take full advantage of, yet most of us still add coilovers, stickier tires, lighter wheels, and other horsepower mods. I'm just surprised more people haven't realized that brakes make a more dramatic performance advantage than any of those other modifications.
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      04-28-2009, 12:57 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graider View Post
i do think bbk is a must even if you don't track. I do a 90 miles round trip to work each day and the stock brakes fade noticeably. If I have the money, I would upgrade to the brembo monoblock right away. Better looks and no fade.

IMO the stock brakes suck even for street use. Nothing is wrong with my stock brake btw.

LOL get those brakes checked NOW !
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      04-28-2009, 01:08 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
I'm really surprised that some of you are saying the brakes suck even for street use. Edmund's did the fastest stop ever of any car from 60mph when they test drove the M3. (The review is here. Since then they've bettered it but very few cars are in this category.). Yes, Porsche (and Ferrari, and Lambo, etc.) has better brakes. And most BBKs (all?) will be an improvement, but you'll only ever realize the improvement on the track. Get Brembos if you're very serious about racing or want the good looks of the Brembos. Otherwise, the OEM brakes are still top notch.
yeah they stop good on the first one, but after repeat stop or long drive in the range of 30+ minutes, they sux. I mean majority of people would commute or go on road trip with the m, not just take it out of the garage, drive down the local street, then put it back in the garage.
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      04-28-2009, 01:14 PM   #52
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LOL get those brakes checked NOW !
I take that you drive like a grandpa so you cannot see a need for bbk.
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      04-28-2009, 01:25 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graider View Post
i do think bbk is a must even if you don't track. I do a 90 miles round trip to work each day and the stock brakes fade noticeably. If I have the money, I would upgrade to the brembo monoblock right away. Better looks and no fade.
"graider Drives: py/kiwi e46 m3"
If you are indeed driving an E46 M3 then your mistake is to think the E92 M3 brakes are the same.
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      04-28-2009, 01:55 PM   #54
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Quote:
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I take that you drive like a grandpa so you cannot see a need for bbk.
Thats right I drive like a grandpa and only you know how to drive.

Just as an FYI Im signed up for 2 track events and so far this year I did a 4 hour plus VERY fast drive up in the mountains through curvy one lane roads. No issues ... But then again we can't all be as good as some.

What's funny are the people using it for street use saying they are not good enough and that BBK's are needed for street use when a person who tracked his car with the stock brakes said they were fine with "track pads+fluid" ... Oh... I guess he can;t drive either and needs BBK's.

Look, you want the bling factor you don't need to justify buying them by saying you drive better than everyone else for "Street use" . Go ahead and buy them I would personally rather buy track pads/fluid and modify the car.
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      04-28-2009, 02:00 PM   #55
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I have already replaced mine after 2 track days, and only 4k miles; so in essence, no way as good as BBKs.
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      04-28-2009, 02:09 PM   #56
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Quote:
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I have already replaced mine after 2 track days, and only 4k miles; so in essence, no way as good as BBKs.
Did you change to "track pads and fluid"? If not that's why.

For track use it's been written that all you need is to get track pads and fluid and you're good with stock just like the poster above mentionned that he did and had no issues.
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      04-28-2009, 02:13 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
Did you change to "track pads and fluid"? If not that's why.

For track use it's been written that all you need is to get track pads and fluid and you're good with stock just like the poster above mentionned that he did and had no issues.
Do you know how much are the track pads and what sort of fluid should I use?
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      04-28-2009, 02:53 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedtrap View Post
Do you know how much are the track pads and what sort of fluid should I use?
Brake pads :
http://www.apracing.com/info/index.a...Brake+Pads_977
http://www.velocitymotorcars.com/haw...b551z.748.html

Brake fluid:
http://www.apracing.com/info/index.a...rake+Fluid_978

Turner motorsports: Have everything but so do theones above.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html...&subcat_id=140
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      04-28-2009, 03:19 PM   #59
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many thanks and appreciate the kind help. J

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      04-28-2009, 11:03 PM   #60
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This thread is hilarious. By all means, if you have 7K burning a hole in your pocket, buy a BBK. But to say the stock system does not work at the track is a pretty ignorant statement, but understandable from a vendor who wants your 7K, or someone who has spent it.

The MAIN reason why your BBK seems to work better is that it comes with a beter pad compound. End of story.

I will say that the E46 OEM setup had issues at extreme duty cycles (nothing to do with stopping power though), but I don't see the same issues with the E90 setup. It lacks the precision of a well designed BBK, but other than that, it's fine for the track with race pads.

The car's weak point is body control. Spend the $ on the moton street sport kit.
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      04-29-2009, 02:21 AM   #61
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Excellent ^. another voice of reason.
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      04-29-2009, 02:39 AM   #62
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Quote:
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The MAIN reason why your BBK seems to work better is that it comes with a beter pad compound. End of story.
Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
I will say that the E46 OEM setup had issues at extreme duty cycles
Hmmm it didn't really need *that* much effort to induce pad fade in the E46 M3 with std pads. Taking out the brake duct cooling blanks (fitted for at least the UK market) did give some improvement but a few minutes of hard braking on a twisty cross country thrash would soon see the pedal start to soften. Not a big deal, ease off for a few corners and the brakes would come back but it was always there in the back of your mind. No shortage of braking power just pads that didn't have a high enough temperature range.
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      04-29-2009, 04:32 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I disagree about the minimal lap time with the OEM set-up. They are good for more time/laps than that. I'm not denying that they can't be improved, but you're discounting the abilities of the stock system.
I suppose I am basing my opinion on the E46 M3 and assuming that things will be very similar because basic design is the same. I do know that the older M3 had real issues with continuous braking on the track and 15 mins tops of hard track use caused excessive brake fade.

I have heard reports that the new E9? M3 still isn't that great (in OEM form remember) but maybe a change of pads will cure most normal trackday driving. Regardless of this the Porsche system is far superior and is the kind of setup that BMW offered in the first place considering the price of the car and the performance it has.
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      04-29-2009, 07:44 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
This thread is hilarious. By all means, if you have 7K burning a hole in your pocket, buy a BBK. But to say the stock system does not work at the track is a pretty ignorant statement, but understandable from a vendor who wants your 7K, or someone who has spent it.

The MAIN reason why your BBK seems to work better is that it comes with a beter pad compound. End of story.

I will say that the E46 OEM setup had issues at extreme duty cycles (nothing to do with stopping power though), but I don't see the same issues with the E90 setup. It lacks the precision of a well designed BBK, but other than that, it's fine for the track with race pads.

The car's weak point is body control. Spend the $ on the moton street sport kit.
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Excellent ^. another voice of reason.
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      04-29-2009, 08:27 AM   #65
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Honestly, a lot of people here are just using the "lack of good OE brake" argument to justify their $7k-purchase of bigger, prettier, colored calipers.

In the US, if you drive on the street in a safe fashion, the stock brakes are more than sufficient. Even on the track, a novice/intermediate driver like me haven't noticed any fade. Even if it start fading when I drive harder, the problem can be mitigated by upgrading pads/fluids/brake lines.

Would I like to have a BBK? Hell yes (even if it is just for cosmetic reasons). But $7k? Hell no (I would rather save up for my next car that comes standard with better brakes)
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      04-29-2009, 09:06 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I have heard reports that the new E9? M3 still isn't that great (in OEM form remember) but maybe a change of pads will cure most normal trackday driving. Regardless of this the Porsche system is far superior and is the kind of setup that BMW offered in the first place considering the price of the car and the performance it has.
Hey there footie

Are ALL Porsches coming with this better brake system that is great for the track or just the higher end "race" type models ?

Im going to take a stab at guessing that the Porsche ,for most people, is not a daily driver so they can put on higher performance brakes while the M3 is a daily driver for the majority of the people .

Doing a brief search on forums it seems Porsches get fade as well and if you read the response to the Boxster owners brake question ... He is recommended to change his PAds/fluid and lines.

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothr...int&id=3638346

Here is the exact quote copy and pasted :

"The 20thAE brakes are an excellent setup when paired with good pads, some stainless lines and good fluid."

Manufacturers have to balance Daily Driving usage and stopping . Something good for the track normally requires heat to work better and most people dont create enough heat on daily driving so they have to put pads that satisfies the majority of the owners. For those few that "need" better braking track pads/fluids and lines should be more than adequate.
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