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      04-27-2009, 02:47 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Were is the evidence that DR's GTR was 8mph slower, I have looked at the 7:29 lap on Youtube but it contains no speedo reading.
Bob,

This is what I'm referring to:

"The data trace that Mizuno is proud to take me through suggests that Suzuki is being ridiculously modest. The peak lateral G figure is 1.4 - and the car averages 1.3G from corner to corner. The GTR hits 290kph twice on its way to that lap time."

http://www.rennteam.com/forum/index.html?vs=3

Now, I'm assuming Döttinger Höhe, which is the LONG straight on the back, is where that 290 kph (~180mph) would have been recorded. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. Still, that's 12mph faster than the max speed Chris Harris was able to coax out of his GTR on the same section. I would guess driver skill has little to do with it on that long straight. You're basically going flat out. And if I call Harris's video narration correctly, he kept the pedal to the floor in the GT-R where that was one of several places he had to lift in the GT2.

EDIT: Further analysis of that graph shows that the first 290kph instance (Schwedenkreuz) was most likely a logging glitch due to the car getting airborn for an instant. The second one appears to be real so my point still stands.
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      04-27-2009, 05:28 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacerdaschoon View Post
WoW these M3 forums are out of control, i dont see the big deal in getting so over hyped up over something so irrelevant to your daily life.. GTR is a great car irrespective of your presumed HP ratings and other issues you put forward. Facts are facts times are times. Heres another review of the porsche up against the GTR driven by a GP2 driver Bruno Senna
yah it gets pretty crazy, the issue isnt how great of a car the GTR is, we can all agree it is a beast. to me the issue and im sure with many others are the ethics of nissan. They post these amazing times which i believe they achieved however they do not say what parts were on the car and other stats, they just release a pic with a bunch of happy people surrounding an obviously not stock GTR. In this thread the GTR in question has the club sport package which is not available here in the US which causes some controversy.
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      04-27-2009, 06:28 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
Bob,

This is what I'm referring to:

"The data trace that Mizuno is proud to take me through suggests that Suzuki is being ridiculously modest. The peak lateral G figure is 1.4 - and the car averages 1.3G from corner to corner. The GTR hits 290kph twice on its way to that lap time."

http://www.rennteam.com/forum/index.html?vs=3

Now, I'm assuming Döttinger Höhe, which is the LONG straight on the back, is where that 290 kph (~180mph) would have been recorded. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. Still, that's 12mph faster than the max speed Chris Harris was able to coax out of his GTR on the same section. I would guess driver skill has little to do with it on that long straight. You're basically going flat out. And if I call Harris's video narration correctly, he kept the pedal to the floor in the GT-R where that was one of several places he had to lift in the GT2.

EDIT: Further analysis of that graph shows that the first 290kph instance (Schwedenkreuz) was most likely a logging glitch due to the car getting airborn for an instant. The second one appears to be real so my point still stands.
Good observations. The capability of th GT-R on Döttinger Höhe has been discussed and debated intensely here on the forum by principally the folks chatting in this thread, myself, Bruce and footie. I even ran some simulations to back up my claims. In these prior discussions much of the debate was about the GT-R vs. both the ZR-1 and ACR.

Sounds like you missed that fun, most of the discussion/debate was here: link.
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      04-27-2009, 08:48 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Good observations. The capability of th GT-R on Döttinger Höhe has been discussed and debated intensely here on the forum by principally the folks chatting in this thread, myself, Bruce and footie. I even ran some simulations to back up my claims. In these prior discussions much of the debate was about the GT-R vs. both the ZR-1 and ACR.

Sounds like you missed that fun, most of the discussion/debate was here: link.
I did miss that. Not my intention to rehash an old debate if this has already been covered, but I happen to agree with your analysis. The GT-R's chief engineer directly confirms that the "7:29" GT-R hit a peak speed of 180 mph on that back straight so it's right in line with what you discovered in the video cut up.

It comes down to this: If you believe Nissan used a completey stock car for the 7:29 run, you have to to believe a 3850lb GT-R pushing 480hp, or even 530hp can accelerate even with a ZR-1, Viper ACR or Porsche GT2 above 100 mph. There is a mountain of test evidence which says this ain't happening. The GTR gets walked, hard, Dewey Cox style above 100 mph by those cars.

p.s., don't know if you've seen this, but here's the raw telemetry data from the "7:38" run. It shows an exit speed of roughly 106 mph onto the back straight ending up somewhere around 177 mph.

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/87769-nis...-analysis.html
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      04-27-2009, 10:48 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacerdaschoon View Post
WoW these M3 forums are out of control, i dont see the big deal in getting so over hyped up over something so irrelevant to your daily life.. GTR is a great car irrespective of your presumed HP ratings and other issues you put forward. Facts are facts times are times. Heres another review of the porsche up against the GTR driven by a GP2 driver Bruno Senna
I gave up reading all the posts when I saw the number but you've said it all right there.
The fact is that the GT-R is cheaper and faster than the new M3. That's the fact. Ring times are a load of bollox no matter what the car and do you honestly and without being biased believe that the times BMW release are any more honest??? Do you think BMW go to a random owner and pay them to use their car for the timing???

Get over it. You bought your car for whatever reason you bought it. There are always going to be faster and better cars out there. Some will be more expensive (911 GT3) and some will be cheaper (GT-R) but all will be pretty much completely different.

I bought my M3 because I couldn't get a GT-R. There's still a wait list on them and the only ones that are for sale are by speculators who are looking for 40k over list for a used one. Screw them. I'll enjoy my car for the next 3 or 4 years and then take a nice long look at whats available and buy another nice car.

I know my car is nicer to drive and better put together than a Corvette Z06 but I also know the Corvette would spit me out in a drag or on a track. Know what? I don't care. I know the GT-R is a faster car in all situations and I know that even with minimal experience it will allow you to drive faster than if you were in the M3. Know what? I'm off to bed and I'll sleep like a baby.

But for God's sake lose the sad fanboy attitude. The GT-R is fantastic. No question. And to create a car that can do what it does and still weigh as much as a large elephant is nothing short of magic. Celebrate the fact that Nissan have created something that other manufacturers will kill themselves to beat leading to better 911's and better M3's etc etc.

G'night and sleep tight.

P.S.
I come from a land with no car industry so I'm not shackled with any fanboyness (is that a word? It is now). I just love fast cars.
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      04-28-2009, 01:24 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
Bob,

This is what I'm referring to:

"The data trace that Mizuno is proud to take me through suggests that Suzuki is being ridiculously modest. The peak lateral G figure is 1.4 - and the car averages 1.3G from corner to corner. The GTR hits 290kph twice on its way to that lap time."

http://www.rennteam.com/forum/index.html?vs=3

Now, I'm assuming Döttinger Höhe, which is the LONG straight on the back, is where that 290 kph (~180mph) would have been recorded. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. Still, that's 12mph faster than the max speed Chris Harris was able to coax out of his GTR on the same section. I would guess driver skill has little to do with it on that long straight. You're basically going flat out. And if I call Harris's video narration correctly, he kept the pedal to the floor in the GT-R where that was one of several places he had to lift in the GT2.

EDIT: Further analysis of that graph shows that the first 290kph instance (Schwedenkreuz) was most likely a logging glitch due to the car getting airborn for an instant. The second one appears to be real so my point still stands.
I did discuss this telemetry with a fellow enthusiast and both of us had our reservations about this data, especially the two 290km/h peaks. The one on Döttinger Höhe is understandable as it's the sole place on the track that any of these cars could hope to reach such speeds but the other was just plain wrong, I don't happen to agree that the car going airborne would possibly give such a reading because their telemetry would have been far to advanced for such a method.

So if we believe the other reading is correct then Suzuki reached a peak speed of 12mph over what Chris reach. Is that possible with two stock cars showing such a variation, well the obvious answer is NO, though it's perfectly acceptable to see maybe 4~5mph when the speed is approaching these figures. Then there is the exit speed on to the straight, if Suzuki exited quicker which I believe he did then that speed difference would be carried the entire length of the straight but only if peak speed wasn't reached prior to this point and then there is the possibility of a different wind directions on these two separate runs, maybe Suzuki had a tail wind and Chris was running into a small head wind. I very much doubt DR were this anal as to test for such things.

So I ask, is it perfectly possible for two stock cars to show a difference of 12mph at around the 180mph point given different starting speeds on to the straight and a possible different wind conditions on the two days?

In my opinion the answer has to be YES.

Point is, you either believe that these manufacturers are telling the truth or you don't, because if you reckon one is at it then you better believe they are all at it.
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      04-28-2009, 01:38 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoreHead View Post
I gave up reading all the posts when I saw the number but you've said it all right there.
The fact is that the GT-R is cheaper and faster than the new M3. That's the fact. Ring times are a load of bollox no matter what the car and do you honestly and without being biased believe that the times BMW release are any more honest??? Do you think BMW go to a random owner and pay them to use their car for the timing???

Get over it. You bought your car for whatever reason you bought it. There are always going to be faster and better cars out there. Some will be more expensive (911 GT3) and some will be cheaper (GT-R) but all will be pretty much completely different.

I bought my M3 because I couldn't get a GT-R. There's still a wait list on them and the only ones that are for sale are by speculators who are looking for 40k over list for a used one. Screw them. I'll enjoy my car for the next 3 or 4 years and then take a nice long look at whats available and buy another nice car.

I know my car is nicer to drive and better put together than a Corvette Z06 but I also know the Corvette would spit me out in a drag or on a track. Know what? I don't care. I know the GT-R is a faster car in all situations and I know that even with minimal experience it will allow you to drive faster than if you were in the M3. Know what? I'm off to bed and I'll sleep like a baby.

But for God's sake lose the sad fanboy attitude. The GT-R is fantastic. No question. And to create a car that can do what it does and still weigh as much as a large elephant is nothing short of magic. Celebrate the fact that Nissan have created something that other manufacturers will kill themselves to beat leading to better 911's and better M3's etc etc.

G'night and sleep tight.

P.S.
I come from a land with no car industry so I'm not shackled with any fanboyness (is that a word? It is now). I just love fast cars.
Your post is almost entirely irrelevant to this thread and the discussion at hand.
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      04-28-2009, 02:43 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
I did miss that. Not my intention to rehash an old debate if this has already been covered, but I happen to agree with your analysis. The GT-R's chief engineer directly confirms that the "7:29" GT-R hit a peak speed of 180 mph on that back straight so it's right in line with what you discovered in the video cut up.
No worries, the more eyes and the more investigation the better.

I can not find the quote above. Was it supposed to be in the rennteam link you provided? I was not able to determine the peak speed of the GT-R by the video Nissan provided nor from my simulation. About the only thing I determined as far as top speed for the GT-R was that it likely hit 174 mph+ and did so well before the bridge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
p.s., don't know if you've seen this, but here's the raw telemetry data from the "7:38" run. It shows an exit speed of roughly 106 mph onto the back straight ending up somewhere around 177 mph.

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/87769-nis...-analysis.html
I can not pick off any speeds with any accuracy given these images and the large range of the speed axis especially with no increment markings. Again, what am I missing?

Lastly in comparing the max speed obtained by the GT-R in various runs don't forget the importance of the corner exit speed. Drivers republic reports minimum corner speeds, not corner exit speeds in their big article. In an effort to have something that can be directly compared with simulation I use corner exit speeds at which time one should be WOT.

For the DR GT-R lap the GT-R minimum corner speed just before Döttinger Höhe was 89 mph. If the GT-R could gain as much speed as the ZR-1 did from that point to corner exit (15 mph) Chris' corner exit speed would have been 104. I expect the actual number to be closer to 100. So his speed gain on Döttinger Höhe is in the range of 64-68 mph. I'd love to know Suzuki's corner minimum and verify his corner exit speed for this same corner.
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      04-28-2009, 03:51 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
For the DR GT-R lap the GT-R minimum corner speed just before Döttinger Höhe was 89 mph. If the GT-R could gain as much speed as the ZR-1 did from that point to corner exit (15 mph) Chris' corner exit speed would have been 104. I expect the actual number to be closer to 100. So his speed gain on Döttinger Höhe is in the range of 64-68 mph. I'd love to know Suzuki's corner minimum and verify his corner exit speed for this same corner.
I matched up Suzuki's 7:29 lap with Chris's lap at the point on entering this final corner prior to Döttinger Höhe and it's as plain as day that Suzuki was more committed so even without the relative data I can see he was traveling quicker and thus exited the corner on to the straight at a higher speed.

I welcome any additional opinions/data to the discussion but the opinion that Suzuki's GTR was somehow different in output over the one Chris drove and this is all down to their respective peak speeds reached at the end of this straight is simply grasping at straws in my opinion. There is too many variables and unknowns to make a concrete conclusion on this.

Bring me hard facts and I will keep an open mind but until then I am still with the belief that it was a stock GTR that was driven exceptionally well and in favorable conditions.
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      04-28-2009, 08:31 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
Your post is almost entirely irrelevant to this thread and the discussion at hand.
That's almost entirely possible as it was relating only to the first page. I have too much to do with my life than to read 8 pages of what was shaping up to be GT-R bashing so I didn't bother going past that.

You have my humblest apologies for wasting your bytes.

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How does an 8 page GT-R thread exist on an M3 site?
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      04-28-2009, 11:13 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I can not find the quote above. Was it supposed to be in the rennteam link you provided? I was not able to determine the peak speed of the GT-R by the video Nissan provided nor from my simulation. About the only thing I determined as far as top speed for the GT-R was that it likely hit 174 mph+ and did so well before the bridge.
It's actually in the Driver's Republic article "The Story Behind the 7:29" lap. You have Mizuno talking the journalist through the data trace. This is where the reference to the 290 kph instances are made. You have visual confirmation of this if you go to the next page and look at the photo set. One of the photos contains the data trace from the 7:29 run. The vehicle speed trace is scaled to min/max. The max is clearly 290 kph and the red trace (7:29 run) touches the peak on the back straight.

http://www.drivers-republic.com/firs...d680bdf&page=2
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      04-28-2009, 11:44 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
[...]
So I ask, is it perfectly possible for two stock cars to show a difference of 12mph at around the 180mph point given different starting speeds on to the straight and a possible different wind conditions on the two days?

In my opinion the answer has to be YES.
I guess that's the million dollar question. I believe the answer to that is a definite "no". It's all about HP on that back straight. I understand corner exit speed plays a role, but it's a minor one. Why? A car's velocity curve goes to an asymptote - it flattens out at those speeds. You can see this on the velocity data trace for the GT-R. A 10mph faster exit speed out of the curve doesn't translate to 10mph more terminal velocity at the end of a long straight. For lower speed sections, yes, I would agree with you but not on this part of the track.

As far as wind, why didn't the wind have the same effect on the GT2's peak speed in the DR test?

I think the GT-R that ran the fantastic 7:29 lap was making a fantastic 550-600hp. It's the only explanation that "rings" true.
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      04-28-2009, 12:19 PM   #167
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i gave up one this thread....

nissan never ever proved anything still....

the gtr is no comparison to me even compared to a REGULAR 911. I would get a 911 anyday over a 80k nissan. That sounds so rediculous.

If people are really that dumb to think that a gtr can do 7:27 with a STOCK gtr, then your just an idiot.

a car with 3850 pounds can never achieve those times, especially with 480 or 530hp. You guys keep yapping about its so advanced drivetrain. thats BS. When comparing this car to other caliper cars such as a gt2, gt3, zr1, yada yada, keep in mind that all the cars listed were built for TRACK purposes minus the roll cage(which can be bought for the porsches from the factory), so if you think nissan has built a more advanced drivetrain system then the cars above, then you must be tripping, or an idiot. A car(even a supercar) packing as much meat as 10 bears like the gtr can not achieve exit times or straight line or the same stopping power. If using AWD was the game winner, they wouldnt make the gt3 or gt2 OR ZR1 or viper ACER, Ferrari and i can list a lot more cars, Notice these cars are the TOP TIER cars for each manufacturer or pretty damn frecking close to it and are using RWD.

Besides whats the point, did the transmission give out after this run? Or was the warranty voided? To me its all BS, if this car was built solely to outrun the porsche 911 tt on the TRACK, then they would have never started voiding warranties for a built in Launch control. To me it only comes down to one thing, they did WHATEVER they can to make it faster then the big daddy porsche. Which only comes down to using a non-stock GTR.

Its so funny how no one else in the business, and NO ONE, has been able to achieve such godly things like Nissan, especially when all the cars it takes out short of a enzo or GT, are all 3000 pounds, 800 pounds lighter. If you really think Nissan's advancements overcame 800 pounds, and still managed to beat not so normal cars(fair to say, afterall we are not comparing these cars to a m3 or rs5 around the ring) then you must be a foolish as thinking your going to win the lottery today. Especially after others have tried to achieve the same times and have not come close.

THE END/GAME OVER/ END THE THREAD.
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      04-28-2009, 12:21 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoreHead View Post
That's almost entirely possible as it was relating only to the first page. I have too much to do with my life than to read 8 pages of what was shaping up to be GT-R bashing so I didn't bother going past that.

You have my humblest apologies for wasting your bytes.

P.S.
How does an 8 page GT-R thread exist on an M3 site?


What do you expect? The GTR has this effect. People just don't want to believe reality.
I have run my Black Series with new R compound tires against my GTR with all seasons and it wasn't even close. A friend of my mine and I did a bunch of straight line runs and the GTR always stomped on the Merc.
I expected the Nissan to pull off the line but even when the Mercedes got traction in its power band the GTR was still putting distance on it.

Mind you, on paper, they should actually line up well.
CLK63 Black- ~3800 lbs 500bhp/465 lb-ft
GTR -~3800 lbs 480bhp/430 lb-ft


Me thinks the GTR is grossly underrated.

We may bring them to the track next week. My gut tells me the GTR will beat up the Merc by a greater margin than simply drag racing.
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      04-28-2009, 12:24 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted335 View Post
i gave up one this thread....

nissan never ever proved anything still....

the gtr is no comparison to me even compared to a REGULAR 911. I would get a 911 anyday over a 80k nissan. That sounds so rediculous.

If people are really that dumb to think that a gtr can do 7:27 with a STOCK gtr, then your just an idiot.

a car with 3850 pounds can never achieve those times, especially with 480 or 530hp. You guys keep yapping about its so advanced drivetrain. thats BS. When comparing this car to other caliper cars such as a gt2, gt3, zr1, yada yada, keep in mind that all the cars listed were built for TRACK purposes minus the roll cage(which can be bought for the porsches from the factory), so if you think nissan has built a more advanced drivetrain system then the cars above, then you must be tripping, or an idiot.

Besides whats the point, did the transmission give out after this run? Or was the warranty voided? To me its all BS, if this car was built solely to outrun the porsche 911 tt on the TRACK, then they would have never started voiding warranties for a built in Launch control. To me it only comes down to one thing, they did WHATEVER they can to make it faster then the big daddy porsche. Which only comes down to using a non-stock GTR.

Its so funny how no one else in the business, and NO ONE, has been able to achieve such godly things like Nissan, especially when all the cars it takes out short of a enzo or GT, are all 3000 pounds, 800 pounds lighter. If you really think Nissan's advancements overcame 800 pounds, and still managed to beat not so normal cars(fair to say, afterall we are not comparing these cars to a m3 or rs5 around the ring) then you must be a foolish as thinking your going to win the lottery today. Especially after others have tried to achieve the same times and have not come close.

THE END/GAME OVER/ END THE THREAD.



I have gone through this thread and have come conclusion that you don't know much about what you are commenting on.

What is it with 335 owners? Sheez. Inferiority complex because you couldn't afford the M3?
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      04-28-2009, 12:47 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapistwit View Post
I have gone through this thread and have come conclusion that you don't know much about what you are commenting on.

What is it with 335 owners? Sheez. Inferiority complex because you couldn't afford the M3?
your response is pretty irrelivent and unsuprising to me.

1. Your a band wagoner you own a gt-r, im sorry....you warranty still there?

2. Second of all your an idiot if u think i can afford a 335 and decide to mod it pretty intensively and not afford an m3. Wake up call, I CAN, however unlike you i dont have anything to prove to anyone including your sorry ass. Not once did i bring up a 335 or anything in this thread, you my friend need to go buy some BALLS inhancers....i rather not own your life and post pictures of cars we own, cuz unlike you i dont have things to prove to e-wannabes.

3. I got respect for m3 and i know what it is, a better car then a 335, please go read my reviews on it, go ahead and :

4. your attempt of being cool has failed.

5. Why dont you be a little more resourceful, instead of throwing stupid commentary.

5. Please stick to topic
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      04-28-2009, 12:55 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted335 View Post
your response is pretty relivent and unsuprising to me.

1. Your a band wagoner you own a gt-r

2. Second of all your an idiot if u think i can afford a 335 and decide to mod it pretty intensively and not afford an m3. You are no one to judge me.


Yes I own a GTR and have driven it extensively. I can tell you first hand the thing it lightning fast. It will beat up on any 911 except the GT2.
What driving experience do you have with the GTR?
And how do you explain the umpteen unbiased video reviews showing the lowly GTR beating 997 Turbos and GT3s? Are they all in the tank for Nissan?
And to think I'm a GTR "bandwagoner" is absurd. I have had many fast cars and the Nissan isn't my favorite. I am debating whether I want to sell my Black or GTR and haven't decided.

And a person that couldn't spell "Zonda" correctly shouldn't be calling other people "idiots".
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      04-28-2009, 01:00 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by rapistwit View Post
What do you expect? The GTR has this effect. People just don't want to believe reality.
I have run my Black Series with new R compound tires against my GTR with all seasons and it wasn't even close. A friend of my mine and I did a bunch of straight line runs and the GTR always stomped on the Merc.
I expected the Nissan to pull off the line but even when the Mercedes got traction in its power band the GTR was still putting distance on it.

Mind you, on paper, they should actually line up well.
CLK63 Black- ~3800 lbs 500bhp/465 lb-ft
GTR -~3800 lbs 480bhp/430 lb-ft


Me thinks the GTR is grossly underrated.

We may bring them to the track next week. My gut tells me the GTR will beat up the Merc by a greater margin than simply drag racing.
What you expect GTR's run with enzos lollllllll
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      04-28-2009, 01:04 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Boosted335 View Post
What you expect GTR's run with enzos lollllllll
I don't know. It can most certainly beat 997 Turbos and GT3s, F430s, Gallardos, ZO6s, etc.
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      04-28-2009, 01:07 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapistwit View Post
Yes I own a GTR and have driven it extensively. I can tell you first hand the thing it lightning fast. It will beat up on any 911 except the GT2.
What driving experience do you have with the GTR?
And how do you explain the umpteen unbiased video reviews showing the lowly GTR beating 997 Turbos and GT3s? Are they all in the tank for Nissan?
And to think I'm a GTR "bandwagoner" is absurd. I have had many fast cars and the Nissan isn't my favorite. I am debating whether I want to sell my Black or GTR and haven't decided.

And a person that couldn't spell "Zonda" correctly shouldn't be calling other people "idiots".
I am sorry if i have mis spelled the cars name i was in a rush, rest assured i know how to spell it.

I dont have any experience driving it nor do i consider it a race car or a track car because of its weight, if the car was built solely for track purposes it would be way liter. Nor, would i ever consider purchasing it. As i said i would rather buy a 911 4 then this car. <my opinion.

Un Biased reviews? PLZ, its all marketing.
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      04-28-2009, 01:10 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by rapistwit View Post
I don't know. It can most certainly beat 997 Turbos and GT3s, F430s, Gallardos, ZO6s, etc.
Please, dont even start another war.

Its sad how much respect i have for a Z06 and none for a gtr.
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      04-28-2009, 01:13 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapistwit View Post
Yes I own a GTR and have driven it extensively. I can tell you first hand the thing it lightning fast. It will beat up on any 911 except the GT2.
What driving experience do you have with the GTR?
And how do you explain the umpteen unbiased video reviews showing the lowly GTR beating 997 Turbos and GT3s? Are they all in the tank for Nissan?
And to think I'm a GTR "bandwagoner" is absurd. I have had many fast cars and the Nissan isn't my favorite. I am debating whether I want to sell my Black or GTR and haven't decided.

And a person that couldn't spell "Zonda" correctly shouldn't be calling other people "idiots".
+1000 (is that the normal agreement sign on here?)

My guess is boosted is not a native English speaker so I made no comments on the spelling. Boosted if you are native English speaking then I suggest you go back to school. Quick. If not then I take all that back and congratulate you on your English as I have no second language (I'd love one) so will never put someone down that has learned one.

As for 335 tuned??? Why bother. I think most BMW drivers would look down on the japanese tuning car scene. Buying a 335 and doing it is worse because you started by overpaying for a car you're about to abuse.

As for warrantees on GT-Rs??? Do BMW still cover cars that are modded??? I don't think so. I'd be driving one now if there were any around to buy. To suggest that Nissan fudge their test figures any more than any other manufacturer would suggest you're a conspiracy idiot. All Manufacturers do performance testing with the absolute best example of the car in question.

I'm going way off topic but I had to wade in there. You can't know a car you haven't tried and unless Nissan have bought off every car mag and show in the world the GT-R is every bit as good as people are saying. Just accept it. And for God's sake take a chill pill.

Now. What was it you said.
THE END/GAME OVER/ END THE THREAD.
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