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      04-16-2009, 10:14 PM   #23
Driver72
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Originally Posted by jaeS4 View Post
That picture you're looking at with the different wheels is the Nismo GTR Club-Sport version.






Here are the upgrades that totals to 13lbs lighter.

Oh and I think you read the post wrong.
The Nismo exhaust drops 11 lbs from the curb weight of the GT-R the seats drop another 13 pounds from the total.
Just those two things are 24 lbs weight reduction.
I didn't see where they list the TOTAL weight reduction of the Nismo version.
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      04-16-2009, 10:17 PM   #24
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Well again, it's clear even with different wheels and the larger stickier Bridgestone tires on the Nismo version that will also be used on the Spec V version, it ain't a stock GT-R

Not quite sure why Nissan isn't be forth coming about that, and again it leads to questions about whether the engine/ECU was stock as well.

No doubt the car is a beast, but Nissan isn't apparently being completely truthful in it's claims and using it for sales and bragging rights.
Yah i think the car used was a V-spec as well
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      04-16-2009, 10:33 PM   #25
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Yah i think the car used was a V-spec as well
Doesnt' look to be the V Spec in the pictures of them celebrating with bubbly after the run, but does look to have the Nismo wheels/tires and carbon fibre lip spoiler and such.
That's clearly an advantage they didn't state and shouldn't claim the time as a GT-R record when the Nismo package is NOT a regular GT-R and is only available in Japan.
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      04-16-2009, 11:04 PM   #26
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My point is even though it might not be a stock regular GTR, the Club-Sport upgrade is only weight reduction and better suspension and exhaust upgrade as well. So there wouldn't be much of a power increase. I don't think those upgrade would equate to the huge discrepancy between DR's Ring results and Nissan's Ring results. But then again, i am just speculating base on the similar wheels on the picture and the Club-Sport wheels. I'm not trying to prove anything nor do i have any proof either.
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      04-16-2009, 11:36 PM   #27
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      04-17-2009, 02:13 AM   #28
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      04-17-2009, 05:38 AM   #29
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According to EVO (which I consider is the most accurate of all UK rags) stated it's the new 2010 GTR, so based on their comments I believe it's not the V-spec model or even some parts off that model and placed on to the normal car but the stock 2010 model that everyone can go into their dealer and order.

With some of the comments listed on this post it looks like Nissan will never be able to totally convince them that it's a stock car and all of this comes from the fact that no one else has ever got the GTR to perform like Nissan have, but is that really Nissan's fault. That is why I keep harping on about the difference in driver skills and their 100% knowledge of what the car is capable of.
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      04-17-2009, 06:07 AM   #30
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Good for them!!

I think in a couple of years that time will be reachable even with a stock GT-R.
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      04-17-2009, 12:33 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
With some of the comments listed on this post it looks like Nissan will never be able to totally convince them that it's a stock car and all of this comes from the fact that no one else has ever got the GTR to perform like Nissan have
Well, not really. It stems from the fact that the thing has at least 530 hp with a spec of 480.
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      04-17-2009, 01:45 PM   #32
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What Nissan really needs to do is invite another party thats unbiased to properly document the car and the times to completely remove all doubt. Otherwise, people will keep saying its a scam, ringer, etc.

In the science and research world your results will always be second guessed until a third party can replicate the data with the exact same methods used. Yes I know, track and driver conditions vary, but within reason someone else should be able to post times close it with a stock car.
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      04-17-2009, 02:38 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dascamel View Post
What Nissan really needs to do is invite another party thats unbiased to properly document the car and the times to completely remove all doubt. Otherwise, people will keep saying its a scam, ringer, etc.

In the science and research world your results will always be second guessed until a third party can replicate the data with the exact same methods used. Yes I know, track and driver conditions vary, but within reason someone else should be able to post times close it with a stock car.
Yes, alternatively, if they want to keep their driver and chose the track conditions, they can simply invite a neutral third party to certify the car before the test. How hard is that to do really? How hard is it to put the car on a hub dyno and perform a steady-state test and normalize and report the results according to SAE standards? Yes, I know that would lead to all sorts to speculation about what that dyno run means exactly (car stock vs not, etc.), but that sure would be better than the kind of speculation that exists now...
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      04-17-2009, 06:34 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dascamel View Post
What Nissan really needs to do is invite another party thats unbiased to properly document the car and the times to completely remove all doubt. Otherwise, people will keep saying its a scam, ringer, etc.

In the science and research world your results will always be second guessed until a third party can replicate the data with the exact same methods used. Yes I know, track and driver conditions vary, but within reason someone else should be able to post times close it with a stock car.
+1 great post. So many folks just completely miss the point. The whole problem here is that Ring times are blatantly unofficial. They are then used almost deviously by over zealous marketing folks such as those at Nissan.
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      04-18-2009, 01:32 AM   #35
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Is the car under-rated, probably. Is it on a different tune than the production spec cars, I don't know, so I won't speculate that. But put an accomplished F1 Driver in the same car with enough laps in, and I believe its possible. Porsche will hopefully keep mum about this one. With all the crap Nissan caught over this the first time, I'll assume they have some more data to support this being possible. But this ring shit (for all makes) has too many variables to take it as FACT. I take the times I see as a loose estimate on what the cars are capable of, with a good driver.
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      04-18-2009, 03:16 AM   #36
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I don't know who it was that started the whole 'official' lap time supplied by the manufacturer instead of an independent body like SportAuto but it does seem that most are using their own times as the official ones for ads.

No one else has matched either times done by the Viper, the Vette or the Caddy but we all seem to believe their times without question........I asked why is that?
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      04-18-2009, 06:19 AM   #37
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No one else has matched either times done by the Viper, the Vette or the Caddy but we all seem to believe their times without question........I asked why is that?
Because their times are much more in-line with the laws of physics?

Simply "the probability of an event occurring given certain performance parameters and natural laws" argument again. And, no the probability of the GTR, with its published specs, doing what it is doing is not 0, but it is pretty damn low...

Plus, the ZR1 looks nicer!
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      04-18-2009, 07:23 AM   #38
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Because their times are much more in-line with the laws of physics?

Simply "the probability of an event occurring given certain performance parameters and natural laws" argument again. And, no the probability of the GTR, with its published specs, doing what it is doing is not 0, but it is pretty damn low...

Plus, the ZR1 looks nicer!
To put what lucid says into "a picture is worth a thousand words," here's a chart I put together showing various ring times as a function of power to weight. Physics are physics and ring times are very largely a function of power - observe very, very long straights - weight and tires. Really nothing else matters, and the GTR is cheating with either tires or power:

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      04-18-2009, 10:28 AM   #39
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Listen I know all about the regression and what should be achieved but this regression has been developed using all of the above times and more as a reference point. But as each aren't achieved by one driver on the same day in the same condition it is at best a very rough rule of thumb to what each car should be capable of.

You would be surprised how big a time difference can be achieved in any car between a good magazine driver and a F1 driver, then factor in that F1 driver having untold knowledge of the car and the gap increases yet again. Now as I, swamp and Bruce are all in agreement about the actual power of a GTR isn't the quoted figure from Nissan but more like 10% more I think everyone need to readjust their opinions on what the GTR is capable of.

P.S.
If Nissan had have been faking their results would it not have been wiser to let sleeping dogs lie. All the arguing and debating both in forums and mags had died down without causing the GTR that much harm, so to go back and set an improved time seems to be stupid of Nissan to stir this argument up again unless they are in fact telling the truth as I have always believed from the very start.
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      04-18-2009, 12:35 PM   #40
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Whether the GTR is under-rated on the first 7:29 run and this second run, i don't think we'll be able to prove it unequivocally without any solid data and proof. We can speculate till we turn blue and show all of the scientific and mathematic equations and it still won't prove anything unequivocally and in the end we're still only speculating. That being said, i don't believe it ran those times with only 480hp, therefore i do believe both cars that ran those times where under-rated. But i also do believe both of those times and that both runs did happened.
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      04-18-2009, 12:36 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earlyapex View Post
here's a chart I put together showing various ring times as a function of power to weight.
Just FYI Lucid and I worked on regression analysis extensively and posted our results here. Large data sets, small data sets, outlier analysis, probabilities, effect of Cd and skidpad results, all sorts of analysis. Of course the basic conclusion about the GT-R is the same as yours.
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And, no the probability of the GTR, with its published specs, doing what it is doing is not 0, but it is pretty damn low...
Yup.

From my post here.

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A 7:29 lap, with the stated hp and weight of the GT-R (in the expanded list of about 75 data points (cars)) is over performing by 3.5 standard deviations. A 3.5 sigma (or greater) event is equivalent to a probability of 0.00007% (and yes I already multiplied the actual probability by 100 to make it a percentage!).
That is just under a one in a million!
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Quote:
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Listen I know all about the regression and what should be achieved but this regression has been developed using all of the above times and more as a reference point. But as each aren't achieved by one driver on the same day in the same condition it is at best a very rough rule of thumb to what each car should be capable of.
The driver is absolutely an effect and we have discussed that ad infinitum. However, with posts like this one you constantly display your lack of understanding of statistics and random sampling.
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Whether the GTR is under-rated on the first 7:29 run and this second run, i don't think we'll be able to prove it unequivocally without any solid data and proof. We can speculate till we turn blue and show all of the scientific and mathematic equations and it still won't prove anything unequivocally and in the end we're still only speculating. That being said, i don't believe it ran those times with only 480hp, therefore i do believe both cars that ran those times where under-rated. But i also do believe both of those times and that both runs did happened.
I don't think anyone really argues that a GT-R car did not actually complete the laps in the stated times. The question has always been what are the details of those cars that did these laps. And although we have no truly rigorous/mathematical proof any anything. The statistics described just above are sufficient proof to me of a significant underrating.
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      04-18-2009, 02:54 PM   #42
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I totally agree with your swamp that I lack the understanding of such things but I do understand that not all things are equal and just because no one else has matched Nissan's times (twice now) that it isn't impossible.

Remember that Nissan has come back to silence everyone and you either believe that they are genuine or they are not. I repeat, why return if not to prove a point.
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      04-18-2009, 03:26 PM   #43
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Hmm...

Who Photoshop'd the white dude in the pink shirt into the original image, I wonder?

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      04-18-2009, 03:34 PM   #44
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Who Photoshop'd the white dude in the pink shirt into the original image, I wonder?

And the guy raising his arms that appears like he's coming out of a sunroof.
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