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      05-26-2009, 11:51 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I would love to hear your opinion of the CAR magazine test of the GTR vs GT3 and more importantly the facts that the guy doing the driving had never driven a GTR R35 before.

A question to you South, do you believe it's possible to approach a car's true potential the first time you have ever driven it or in the very first lap you do?

I know that Sportauto's times are regarded as the industry standard and all these factory times are in most cases only pie in the sky figures that will never be repeated. I am yet to see a ZR1 lapping in 7:26 or a CTS-V doing an under eight minute lap which begs the question why everyone seems to be on Nissan's case about their times.
The very question I've tried to figure out since this thing started.
Nothing as ugly as the CTS-V will ever crack 8 minutes ()
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      05-26-2009, 11:52 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I would love to hear your opinion of the CAR magazine test of the GTR vs GT3 and more importantly the facts that the guy doing the driving had never driven a GTR R35 before.

A question to you South, do you believe it's possible to approach a car's true potential the first time you have ever driven it or in the very first lap you do?

I know that Sportauto's times are regarded as the industry standard and all these factory times are in most cases only pie in the sky figures that will never be repeated. I am yet to see a ZR1 lapping in 7:26 or a CTS-V doing an under eight minute lap which begs the question why everyone seems to be on Nissan's case about their times.
I haven't read that test yet (is there a full scan available?), but from what you said it seems like the driver had way more experience with P cars. I'm not sure if that's right but my understanding is that the GT-R needs quite a different driving style to get the fastest possible time. In case that's right it would be a very valid conclusion to say the driver could not achieve an amazing time with the GT-R.

With all that being said, I'm wondering how much difference that makes. Do you think a pro (or very experienced) driver would have done such a bad first lap and then improve more than 25 seconds? I don't think so.

Like I said some time ago, Sportauto Supertest is also an indicator of a car's handling since they only do 3 or so laps.

So in my opinion it all depends on the time they actually achieve. In case it's in the ballpark of 7:50 we can rest this case and everybody's sports car world will be back at normal. In case it's a low 7:40 or a high 7:30 we can go on discussing about driver skills, experience and minor modifications...What do you think?


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      05-26-2009, 12:01 PM   #311
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The only way to sort it is to get the original ring porsche driver in a GT3 and the GT-R 7.29 driver and get them to do a couple of laps one after the other in a car pulled randomly from a dealers showroom.

I suspect neither manufacturer would do it.

Having someone used to a Porsche do the times in the GT-R or visa-versa will not show the quickest times no matter what. The cars are COMPLETELY different drives and demand totally different styles of driving and while the GT-R will prove faster from the box in the hands of a novice it will take longer to retrain the brain for a pro I think.
Knowing where to keep the foot in and let the car sort things out in the GT-R will be down to experience with the car. All suspicions of course as I'm not a pro. Not even a prostitute in fact.
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      05-26-2009, 01:25 PM   #312
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South,

Any professional won't improve by a margin of 25secs, such an improvement would take months and months testing non stop. I do think that they would be able to lower that first time if it was their first experience in the car by at least a minimum of 5 or 6 seconds wouldn't you think.

Then add to that reduction a further 5 secs for the pit straight and you end up with a lap of 7:41.

Now add a further 5 secs for the Dunlops and you end up with a 7:36 for Andy. Now things are starting to sound very plausible.

I don't know what Horst will achieve but like Andy I do think the GTR requires a rethink on how you approach a corner and how capable you believe it is, which I might add is probably more than everyone outside of the Nissan's test team give it credit for.
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      05-26-2009, 02:05 PM   #313
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Quote:
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South,

Any professional won't improve by a margin of 25secs, such an improvement would take months and months testing non stop. I do think that they would be able to lower that first time if it was their first experience in the car by at least a minimum of 5 or 6 seconds wouldn't you think.

Then add to that reduction a further 5 secs for the pit straight and you end up with a lap of 7:41.

Now add a further 5 secs for the Dunlops and you end up with a 7:36 for Andy. Now things are starting to sound very plausible.

I don't know what Horst will achieve but like Andy I do think the GTR requires a rethink on how you approach a corner and how capable you believe it is, which I might add is probably more than everyone outside of the Nissan's test team give it credit for.
Pretty much agree with every point you made. Nonetheless, if nobody gets anywhere near the time Nissan achieved, there may come a point when we should start to rethink all the ifs and whens and just concede that the time just wasn't representative.


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      05-26-2009, 02:36 PM   #314
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Pretty much agree with every point you made. Nonetheless, if nobody gets anywhere near the time Nissan achieved, there may come a point when we should start to rethink all the ifs and whens and just concede that the time just wasn't representative.


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I still believe that someone will do a sub 7:40 time in a stock car, but doubt it will be achieved by the magazines, mainly because they have time constrains. I think some ring regular that happens to own a GTR and is very handy will approach Nissan's time.
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      05-26-2009, 03:10 PM   #315
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I still believe that someone will do a sub 7:40 time in a stock car, but doubt it will be achieved by the magazines, mainly because they have time constrains. I think some ring regular that happens to own a GTR and is very handy will approach Nissan's time.
Footie, I do admire your blind faith.

How about we see what Horst achieves. I have a feeling it will be 7:50ish, that's my faith
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      05-26-2009, 04:34 PM   #316
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Footie, I do admire your blind faith.

How about we see what Horst achieves. I have a feeling it will be 7:50ish, that's my faith

Well if Horst achieves anything with a fifty something in it's number then my opinion of Horst as an accomplished driver was greatly over-rated. When Andy can achieve a 7:51 (7:45 adjusted for pit straight) in a car he had never driven before and did only one hot lap then Horst needs to return at least a 7:40 bare minimum to be regarded anything above averagely good considering that he has driven the car more than once.

So to answer your earlier comment, yes you should admire my faith because I have been right on so many occasions when discussing the GTR and I feel I'm on a roll.
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      05-26-2009, 05:10 PM   #317
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Quote:
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Well if Horst achieves anything with a fifty something in it's number then my opinion of Horst as an accomplished driver was greatly over-rated. When Andy can achieve a 7:51 (7:45 adjusted for pit straight) in a car he had never driven before and did only one hot lap then Horst needs to return at least a 7:40 bare minimum to be regarded anything above averagely good considering that he has driven the car more than once.

So to answer your earlier comment, yes you should admire my faith because I have been right on so many occasions when discussing the GTR and I feel I'm on a roll.
So if Horst's time doesn't meet your pre-conceived expectations, you're ready to write him off as a driver? That is rather amazing. Do you know how much experience he has at the ring? Do you not even allow for the possibility that a stock GT-R, not prepped by Nissan, is in fact a ~7:50 car, as all independent data so far suggests?
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      05-26-2009, 05:37 PM   #318
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So if Horst's time doesn't meet your pre-conceived expectations, you're ready to write him off as a driver? That is rather amazing. Do you know how much experience he has at the ring? Do you not even allow for the possibility that a stock GT-R, not prepped by Nissan, is in fact a ~7:50 car, as all independent data so far suggests?
Last time I looked all the times the Sportauto achieved with Porsches were supplied and prepped by Porsche, so is it not fair to allow Nissan the same courtesy?

Oh and yes I do know how much experience Horst has around the ring, that is why I do regard him as an accomplished driver but if he doesn't return the time I'm suggesting given everything that we now know about Andy's time, well then in the GTR at least Horst won't have lived up to expectations on my part.

Even South understands my reasoning and agrees, I bet Awamp and some others will too.
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      05-26-2009, 06:50 PM   #319
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Last time I looked all the times the Sportauto achieved with Porsches were supplied and prepped by Porsche, so is it not fair to allow Nissan the same courtesy?
SportAuto's SuperTest is regarded as unbiased, no? If you're suggesting Porsche sends SportAuto "ringers", that's new information.

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Oh and yes I do know how much experience Horst has around the ring, that is why I do regard him as an accomplished driver but if he doesn't return the time I'm suggesting given everything that we now know about Andy's time, well then in the GTR at least Horst won't have lived up to expectations on my part.

Even South understands my reasoning and agrees, I bet Awamp and some others will too.
I think most people here respect HvS's expertise and are willing to accept whatever time he produces without bringing his skills into question. This will be at least his second exposure to the car so familiarity shouldn't be an excuse.

Let the GTR in the hands of HvS establish the benchmark. Don't set the benchmark a priori and question the test if the benchmark you "feel" to be right is not achieved.
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      05-27-2009, 02:34 AM   #320
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SportAuto's SuperTest is regarded as unbiased, no? If you're suggesting Porsche sends SportAuto "ringers", that's new information.
Yes Sportauto are unbias but if you think that either company prep their cars differently for magazine reviews then you are showing how bias you are. Each company, in fact every company make doublely sure the car supplied will be at it's optimum.

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I think most people here respect HvS's expertise and are willing to accept whatever time he produces without bringing his skills into question. This will be at least his second exposure to the car so familiarity shouldn't be an excuse.

Let the GTR in the hands of HvS establish the benchmark. Don't set the benchmark a priori and question the test if the benchmark you "feel" to be right is not achieved.
If will say again, if Horst doesn't deliver a time close to what I have suggested then Sportauto need a new wheelman, because 7:45 was achieved by someone driving one for the first time on only one flying lap and driving the car with the steering on the wrong side to him. All things that if put right could easily knock 8-10 seconds off his time.
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      05-27-2009, 10:10 AM   #321
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Yes Sportauto are unbias but if you think that either company prep their cars differently for magazine reviews then you are showing how bias you are. Each company, in fact every company make doublely sure the car supplied will be at it's optimum.
Prepping a car for a magazine test is quite a bit different than sending along a chief engineer and group of technicians who actively modify it after consecutive runs around the ring - which is what Nissan did when they achieved their sub 7:30 time on their "stock" GTR.

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If will say again, if Horst doesn't deliver a time close to what I have suggested then Sportauto need a new wheelman, because 7:45 was achieved by someone driving one for the first time on only one flying lap and driving the car with the steering on the wrong side to him. All things that if put right could easily knock 8-10 seconds off his time.
Here you are telling Sporauto they need a new wheelman if they don't get below 7:45. You haven't even allowed for the blindingly obvious possibility that an actual stock GTR might not be as fast as Nissan claims. As south himself said, if another stock GTR runs closer to the 7:50 mark you might want to reconfigure your expectations on what the car is capable of, not the drivers.
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      05-27-2009, 10:37 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
group of technicians who actively modify it after consecutive runs around the ring - which is what Nissan did when they achieved their sub 7:30 time on their "stock" GTR.
It's still stock.
They are mods that anyone can do to their car without any hassle.

Again I say that setting up the M button to have everything set full (suspension, throttle, traction) on the M3 is exactly the same but easier to do. Would you do a track day without setting the edc, traction and throttle to suit the track in question. As long as it's not something being added to the car that is not on the showroom model then it's completely acceptable to do.
You don't try tracking a car with everything set soft on any car that allows you to alter it. It's still a showroom stock car.

How does this thread compare to others? What's the longest a thread has gone on for?
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      05-27-2009, 10:42 AM   #323
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Prepping a car for a magazine test is quite a bit different than sending along a chief engineer and group of technicians who actively modify it after consecutive runs around the ring - which is what Nissan did when they achieved their sub 7:30 time on their "stock" GTR.
So are you saying that the time that Andy achieved had also being prepped in the same manner as the 7:26 (new time now). Of course you are not, so are you concluding that his 7:45 time (adjusted for the pit straight) was somehow special?

Remember that it's logical that Andy should be easily able to drop this time be a further 5+ seconds with a bit of seat time and the steering wheel of the right side for him.

Quote:
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Here you are telling Sporauto they need a new wheelman if they don't get below 7:45. You haven't even allowed for the blindingly obvious possibility that an actual stock GTR might not be as fast as Nissan claims. As south himself said, if another stock GTR runs closer to the 7:50 mark you might want to reconfigure your expectations on what the car is capable of, not the drivers.
I think if you re-read the thread you will find that South's comments were made prior to my own and after that he does agree that everything I am saying has sound reasoning in it.

My suggestion is that Horst needs to be able to get under 7:45 at the very least based on Andy's efforts. If you feel that anything above that is showing Horst at his best then your expectations about his abilities are totally different to my own.
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      05-27-2009, 04:42 PM   #324
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It's still stock.
They are mods that anyone can do to their car without any hassle.
Adjusting toe and or camber and verifying that the adjustment is made correctly isn't quite the same as pressing a button marked "M". It's obvious our definitions of "showroom stock" vary quite a bit.


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So are you saying that the time that Andy achieved had also being prepped in the same manner as the 7:26 (new time now). Of course you are not, so are you concluding that his 7:45 time (adjusted for the pit straight) was somehow special?
Not following you here.

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Remember that it's logical that Andy should be easily able to drop this time be a further 5+ seconds with a bit of seat time and the steering wheel of the right side for him.
Logical to you, maybe, because you're once again in the position of making excuses for the GT-R's weak (relative to Nissan's claims) showing. It is pretty telling that when you subtract 6 seconds for the pit straight, Andy's time for the 997.2 GT3 is within 3 seconds of Porsche's claim. It's abundantly clear which manufacturer is telling the truth about their car's performance, and which one is stretching it beyond the point of believability.
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      05-27-2009, 04:57 PM   #325
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Adjusting toe and or camber and verifying that the adjustment is made correctly isn't quite the same as pressing a button marked "M". It's obvious our definitions of "showroom stock" vary quite a bit.

Nope. I think we have the same idea of showroom stock alright. My point is that even though setting the M button up to go max on everything is easier to do it is still no more showroom stock than having to physically turn some screws to carry out available adjustments on a car. It's just a lazier way to do it is all.

Showroom stock for an M3 is throttle at least aggressive, shocks at softest and steering at lightest.
Showroom stock for a GT-R is for road driving.

My point was that making adjustments that are available on a showroom stock car is not cheating. It's using available features. The fact that it requires more physical effort to actually do it doesn't change the fact that it's available to everyone with the car.
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      05-28-2009, 03:28 AM   #326
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Not following you here.

Logical to you, maybe, because you're once again in the position of making excuses for the GT-R's weak (relative to Nissan's claims) showing. It is pretty telling that when you subtract 6 seconds for the pit straight, Andy's time for the 997.2 GT3 is within 3 seconds of Porsche's claim. It's abundantly clear which manufacturer is telling the truth about their car's performance, and which one is stretching it beyond the point of believability.
I did check to see how long it took one of these two cars to cover the distance of the pit straight and the figure is roughly between 5 and 6 seconds, so when you take 6 seconds away from 7:51 you end up with 7:45.

It isn't rocket science.

Now I am quite confident with what I know about driving and the cars I have driven on the track that given more time, and not much I may add, that Andy should be able to reduce his time by a further 5 seconds which would take his estimated time to a 7:40, that's still 11 seconds off what Nissan achieved but starting to approach the point where possibility that given the talents of Suzuki and his unrivalled knowledge of the car could possibly give him (plus numerous laps) over anyone else.

So in my humble opinion I realistically think that when someone gets to within roughly 7~8 seconds of the 7:29 lap in a similarly stock GTR then in my opinion Nissan has been telling the truth and all those doubters were very quick to point fingers.

7:37 is D-Day in my opinion.
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      05-28-2009, 10:09 AM   #327
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7:38

Horst von Saurma has just achieved this time within the last few days and it will be in the next SportAuto magazine next month.

Once again my estimates of what should be achievable based on Andy's time is right on the money and only 1 second slower than I believe should vindicate the times that Nissan/Suzuki achieved last year.

As I said, I am on a roll. Back to you Garissimo.
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      05-28-2009, 10:11 AM   #328
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7:38

Horst von Saurma has just achieved this time within the last few days and it will be in the next SportAuto magazine next month.

Once again my estimates of what should be achievable based on Andy's time is right on the money and only 1 second slower than I believe should vindicate the times that Nissan/Suzuki achieved last year.

Back to you Garissimo.
Nice. Not that I wouldn't trust you, but your source is reliable?


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      05-28-2009, 10:19 AM   #329
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Nice. Not that I wouldn't trust you, but your source is reliable?


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I would like to think so but I suppose we will find out soon enough.
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      05-28-2009, 10:25 AM   #330
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I would like to think so but I suppose we will find out soon enough.
Great! So we can start talking about the differences between the European and the US and/or the Japanese version, don't we?


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