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      05-21-2009, 12:22 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by SoreHead View Post
Drivel now? I love this forum. It's full of the most obnoxious people I've come across in all my years online. I've yet to find so many people that are incapable of disagreeing without some form of abuse thrown in. Proves what I've said for years about M3 drivers and BMW drivers in general though so no surprises there. Did I say "They won't cover your warranty you idiot"??? No. I just stated what I wanted to and that was it. Like a civilised human being. I guess I was stupid to expect the same back

When I talk about a track day I mean a real one where you go an drive like it is a race. Otherwise it's just a Sunday drive with no speed limits. Go check out a few magazine and internet track tests of the M3. Once the track has a few corners the brakes fall off after only 2 or 3 laps. Not exactly track designed there now is it? Also, if you think our standard M3's are designed to take full track abuse then all the best with that. I hope you don't find out the hard way that they aren't. A GT3 will be much better able to cope with demands of a track day but it's still a road car in highly tuned form so it's already under stress. If I spent the money on one I'd definitely do a track day or two (you'd have to really) but that would be it.

As for warranty. I don't believe for one second that if you blow your gearbox and head back to BMW and tell them you were driving the nuts off it on your 10th track day that they won't laugh you out of the showroom. I will believe it if I see proof. Of course even if I get proof I could still go the route of this thread and say the proof is false and even though I see it I don't believe it.

It is not cheating if the alterations that were made can be made by any owner on any showroom car. You said yourself that BMW tell you how to set the car up for track. Do you not think they did that for their ring timing run??

I'm not familiar with the new GT3 but I would put money on it that if the suspension is adjustable that they adjusted it to suit the track before they did their timing run.
I apologize for the strong word I used, drivel. It was not appropriate. I simply get frustrated when folks state things as facts when they are absolutely false and in this case you are.

You are now clearly trying to have it both ways. Will BMW and Porsche cover cars used for track days or not? A track day is any event on a race track, driving as hard as one wishes, but with the key exception that timing and placing is not used. It is not a race. Plain and simple.

The fact of the matter is that BMW and Porsche do and will cover such events under warranty. There is evidence of that on the BMW side on this very forum and on places like 6speedonline on the Porsche side. Heck BMW themselves will take you out on the track as part of the delivery of your new M car!

Many vehicles not just BMWs and Porsches will handle hard periodic track days with no significant long term negative effects. Wear is always a factor, absolutely, a car driven at 9 or 10 10ths will certainly wear faster than one driven at a daily driving pace. There is no excuse and no reason for denying a warranty claim on a sporty vehicle based on non-competitive track use.

I further purpost that this statement is absolutely false, "It is not cheating if the alterations that were made can be made by any owner on any showroom car." "Showroom stock" has a very precise definition and if you don't see that I don't think we can have much of a discussion on the point. Under your absurd definition nearly any modification can be done still calling a car showroom stock; tires, wheels, brakes, suspension components, suspension adjustments, ECU software, etc., etc.

Last but not least, the instructions in the M3 owners manual on track use does not discuss modifications nor adjustments to the car. It is a short, general set of statements and precautions. The mere presence of these statements in the owners manual lies in massive stark contrast to Nissans approach toward track use.
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      05-21-2009, 12:44 PM   #288
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Listen, who is to know if any of the other factory time posted by the likes of GM, Porsche, etc don't have things like suspension adjusted. The fact is that on the 7:29 lap the GTR was running the Dunlops that are now standard on UK cars.

The simply truth is that once again the GTR has shown it's true potential, Autocar posted a lap against the F430 Scud, 997turbo, GT3 and LP560, with the exception of the Scud which was only something like 0.3s quicker the GTR was top dog and by quite a margain against the GT3 and Turbo.
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      05-21-2009, 01:08 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Listen, who is to know if any of the other factory time posted by the likes of GM, Porsche, etc don't have things like suspension adjusted. The fact is that on the 7:29 lap the GTR was running the Dunlops that are now standard on UK cars.
We do know that independent testers are able to get much closer to the factory claimed times of the manufacturers you rattled off. Not the case with Nissan and the GT-R. This leads to the obvious conclusion that they are "tweaking" more than they are owning up to.

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The simply truth is that once again the GTR has shown it's true potential, Autocar posted a lap against the F430 Scud, 997turbo, GT3 and LP560, with the exception of the Scud which was only something like 0.3s quicker the GTR was top dog and by quite a margain against the GT3 and Turbo.
You're changing the subject. No-one said the GTR can't hold its own on shorter or medium length courses. The subject is clearly the ultra-demanding Nurburgring and Nissan's fantastic claimed sub 7:30 times.

You have the new CAR magazine where CAR specifically set out to end the dispute of who is faster around the ring. Why not post their conclusion, without any spin?
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      05-21-2009, 02:20 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
We do know that independent testers are able to get much closer to the factory claimed times of the manufacturers you rattled off. Not the case with Nissan and the GT-R. This leads to the obvious conclusion that they are "tweaking" more than they are owning up to.



You're changing the subject. No-one said the GTR can't hold its own on shorter or medium length courses. The subject is clearly the ultra-demanding Nurburgring and Nissan's fantastic claimed sub 7:30 times.

You have the new CAR magazine where CAR specifically set out to end the dispute of who is faster around the ring. Why not post their conclusion, without any spin?
Msybe you sre more happy with their result because it plats to your argument but I think it's very unfair to Nissan and the GTR to say that Andy's time in the GTR is a true reflection of what he could achieve in the car given more time to become familiar with the car like what he is with the Porsche.
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      05-21-2009, 02:35 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
Msybe you sre more happy with their result because it plats to your argument but I think it's very unfair to Nissan and the GTR to say that Andy's time in the GTR is a true reflection of what he could achieve in the car given more time to become familiar with the car like what he is with the Porsche.
The guy has driven in the F3 league, I can't imagine sitting on the opposite side of the car is going to completely disorient him. If CAR magazine's conclusion is that Andy barely tapped the potential of the GTR, that's fine, I just want to know what *they* concluded about the results. Their directive was to do as unbiased a test as possible using an independent ring pro.
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      05-21-2009, 03:51 PM   #292
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The GT-R's boost is amazing and the four-wheel drive really helps too. But it encourages an aggressive driving style and the the front tyres heat up quickly. I'd say 99 percent of my lines were perfect, but I got it wrong once - I was unfamiliar with the car, and I'm not so used to right-hand drive.
CAR comments:

Quote:
If you're wondering why Andy was so much slower than Nissan's 7:27sec, consider this, our time was over the full lap, not a lap minus the length of the pits; there was a small section of roadworks; he'd never before driven a GT-R and he did just one hot lap; our car came with factory rubber and suspension, not the optional tweaks Nissan offers any owner.
I can guarantee you that if Andy had the same amount of experience behind the wheel of the Nissan as he does with the Porsche then the GT-R would have been well ahead. Whether Andy would prefer the Porsche (which he did) is not the issue.

P.S.

Reading between the lines at best guess Andy did a minimum of two flying laps in the GT3 and only one in the Nissan.
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      05-21-2009, 04:00 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Boosted335 View Post
you cant adjust the suspension on the gt3 its the gt3 rs you can.
Yeh. I wasn't sure. I was just saying that if you could you can be bloody sure they would have done to optimise it for the task at hand.
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      05-21-2009, 04:14 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I apologize for the strong word I used, drivel. It was not appropriate. I simply get frustrated when folks state things as facts when they are absolutely false and in this case you are.

You are now clearly trying to have it both ways. Will BMW and Porsche cover cars used for track days or not? A track day is any event on a race track, driving as hard as one wishes, but with the key exception that timing and placing is not used. It is not a race. Plain and simple.

The fact of the matter is that BMW and Porsche do and will cover such events under warranty. There is evidence of that on the BMW side on this very forum and on places like 6speedonline on the Porsche side. Heck BMW themselves will take you out on the track as part of the delivery of your new M car!

Many vehicles not just BMWs and Porsches will handle hard periodic track days with no significant long term negative effects. Wear is always a factor, absolutely, a car driven at 9 or 10 10ths will certainly wear faster than one driven at a daily driving pace. There is no excuse and no reason for denying a warranty claim on a sporty vehicle based on non-competitive track use.

I further purpost that this statement is absolutely false, "It is not cheating if the alterations that were made can be made by any owner on any showroom car." "Showroom stock" has a very precise definition and if you don't see that I don't think we can have much of a discussion on the point. Under your absurd definition nearly any modification can be done still calling a car showroom stock; tires, wheels, brakes, suspension components, suspension adjustments, ECU software, etc., etc.

Last but not least, the instructions in the M3 owners manual on track use does not discuss modifications nor adjustments to the car. It is a short, general set of statements and precautions. The mere presence of these statements in the owners manual lies in massive stark contrast to Nissans approach toward track use.
All peace and harmony.

I still say that adjusting a standard, adjustable feature is not cheating. It's not changing anything on the standard car like wheels or tyres etc. It is simply making use of a feature available to everyone buying the car in standard form. It's no different to using the M button on the M3. When you take delivery of your M3 that button is set to everything on low settings (I played with mine wo it might have had power on but everything else is off (MDM, power plus etc). That is still adjusting showroom fresh settings. It's obviously easier to do with a button but it definitely changes the character of the car.

I'll take you word for it on the track day warranty but calll me yeller but I won't be testing it out.

I completely agree that the warranty thing in general is a complete cop out. Disgraceful but I still can't help thinking that if someone took them to court over it they would have a chance of winning.

To be honest I was trying to buy one here before I got my car but wasn't prepared to bend over and take it up the ass from a dealer that register a car so he could then charge 40k over list. Screw that. I'm kinda glad I didn't now although I would consider it in the future once all this pans out and we see how reliable they really are. No denying the performance I think and I don't do track days so that won't bother me.
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      05-21-2009, 04:20 PM   #295
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Like it was sayed on the first page..."too bad they voided their own warranty"
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      05-21-2009, 04:33 PM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Andy Gulden



CAR comments:



I can guarantee you that if Andy had the same amount of experience behind the wheel of the Nissan as he does with the Porsche then the GT-R would have been well ahead. Whether Andy would prefer the Porsche (which he did) is not the issue.

P.S.

Reading between the lines at best guess Andy did a minimum of two flying laps in the GT3 and only one in the Nissan.
Thank you for posting that. Regarding familiarization being the excuse for a slower lap time in the GT-R vs. GT3, I don't buy that at all. It's counterintuitive. The GT-R has both DCT and AWD. You can't mis-shift like you can in the GT3 and over judicious use of the throttle isn't going to re-arrange ends of the car. If anything, the high powered, RWD GT3 with manual transmission should be the more difficult car to master, not the "idiot proof" GT-R. Give him more seat time in the GT3 and his times will drop too. Sorry, but you sound like an unabashed Nissan apologist when you claim the GT-R would have been faster with more tries, but assume his times in the GT3 would have stayed the same.

p.s. Regarding his GT-R lap, Andy flat out stated "99% of my lines were perfect". Doesn't sound like he left massive chunks of time out on the track.
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      05-22-2009, 03:58 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
Thank you for posting that. Regarding familiarization being the excuse for a slower lap time in the GT-R vs. GT3, I don't buy that at all. It's counterintuitive. The GT-R has both DCT and AWD. You can't mis-shift like you can in the GT3 and over judicious use of the throttle isn't going to re-arrange ends of the car. If anything, the high powered, RWD GT3 with manual transmission should be the more difficult car to master, not the "idiot proof" GT-R. Give him more seat time in the GT3 and his times will drop too. Sorry, but you sound like an unabashed Nissan apologist when you claim the GT-R would have been faster with more tries, but assume his times in the GT3 would have stayed the same.

p.s. Regarding his GT-R lap, Andy flat out stated "99% of my lines were perfect". Doesn't sound like he left massive chunks of time out on the track.
Garissimo,

It's clear we aren't going to see eye to eye on anything relating to the GTR, what is cool and I don't really have a problem with that.

After all, how long did it take to convince everyone that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe or that it wasn't even flat.

The only thing I would like to add is from my experience I could always lap quicker when I was familiar with the thing I was driving and that can only come from trial and error. Put me in a Cayman or Boxster (regardless of model or age) and I would consistently be quick than in something that wasn't dramatically quicker but had never before driven which is what was asked of Andy on this occasion. I am 100% certain that Andy is very familiar with the 997 and has covered close on a 100 of laps in them, to do one hot lap in a car which behaviours and characteristics are foreign to you and get to within a 2 seconds of another true track and equally accomplished ring star like the GT3 in my mind says a lot for the GTR and a lot more than you are giving credit for.

So if you think that straight out of the box Andy achieved anything like his best in the GTR then you are mistaken and that is all I have to say on the subject.
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      05-22-2009, 09:40 AM   #298
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I think there can be no question that you are going to get faster the more experience you have in any car. That can't be argued by any sane person. I think the only question now is how do we know how much experience the driver has had in 911's.

If he has had no experience in 911's then I think the lhd/rhd thing would have made less of a difference. However, I seem to get the impression that he has done a lot of driving in Porsches?? Is that correct? I don't know why I get this impression and the thread is too long to go back through it (must be a record).

Does anyone know definitively if the driver has or has not had 911 experience???
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      05-22-2009, 09:57 AM   #299
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When you think how long the GT3 in all it's forms has been in production and how often it is used on the ring then it's logical to expect someone of Andy's experience and profession to have spent a decent amount of time behind the wheel of a GT3 of some sort.
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      05-23-2009, 02:20 AM   #300
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When you think how long the GT3 in all it's forms has been in production and how often it is used on the ring then it's logical to expect someone of Andy's experience and profession to have spent a decent amount of time behind the wheel of a GT3 of some sort.
It has also been said the GTR is easier to drive at the limits than most sports cars.
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      05-23-2009, 07:12 PM   #301
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Garissimo,

After all, how long did it take to convince everyone that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe or that it wasn't even flat.
Actually, in Herodutus' Histories he writes about the Egyptian's perfectly logical belief in a spherical Earth and about how that affects our seasons and tides...

That was written in 600bc...

So I guess it didn't take very long...

I'm just pulling your leg, footie, I just wanted to be an ass...
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      05-24-2009, 08:04 AM   #302
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Just to add some perspective: Sportauto finally announced their long anticipated Supertest of the GT-R for the next issue. So guys, mark June 19th in your calendar.

As soon as we have the Supertest results we'll know whether the GT-R really lives up to all the hype. Will it be able to beat the 997.5 GT3 and be faster than 7:40?

I know this discussion will go on no matter what the results will be though...


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      05-25-2009, 03:37 PM   #303
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Just to add some perspective: Sportauto finally announced their long anticipated Supertest of the GT-R for the next issue. So guys, mark June 19th in your calendar.

As soon as we have the Supertest results we'll know whether the GT-R really lives up to all the hype. Will it be able to beat the 997.5 GT3 and be faster than 7:40?

I know this discussion will go on no matter what the results will be though...


Best regards,
south

Check this article out

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=30921
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      05-25-2009, 05:23 PM   #304
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This is the very article we have been discussing over the last couple of pages. I know very little about the dynamics of the GTR but know enough that one just doesn't jump into one and get close to it best.

BTW, I timed a GT3 through the pit lane section that CAR added to it's time for both the GT3 and GTR and it amounts to approximately 6~7 seconds. Also the GTR was equipped with Bridgestones and not the Dunlops once more which account for about 5 seconds .
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      05-25-2009, 05:39 PM   #305
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This is the very article we have been discussing over the last couple of pages. I know very little about the dynamics of the GTR but know enough that one just doesn't jump into one and get close to it best.

BTW, I timed a GT3 through the pit lane section that CAR added to it's time for both the GT3 and GTR and it amounts to approximately 6~7 seconds. Also the GTR was equipped with Bridgestones and not the Dunlops once more which account for about 5 seconds .
Sorry if I reposted.

Also on the bottom of the OP is this:

"The famous Sportauto magazine have tested the GTR In the next issue to, and the rumors say that Horst von sauma (nurburgring testdriver) couldnt get near Nissan "official" nurburgring time."


We are wondering if it is possible to reproduce Nissan's claim.

The GT3/911 times are accepted as being fact and reproduced by several independent sources in a very consistent manner. While the only person who can achieve Nissan's claim time is a Nissan driver.

It's been a year since the GT-R has been out in the hands of pro drivers and surely there must be some other pro who could get closer than the 7:50ish times we've all seen repeated over and over.

When you boast about something like Nissan has, you better be prepared for scrutiny and I can't recall something being so looked over with a fine tooth comb than this lap time. Yet, no evidence supports Nissan's claim other than failure over failure to get this sub 7:30 time. On top of this, everyone of these groups testing now have their warranty voided. hahaha

I demand a recount for my E92 M3, no way it's 8:05...get that Nissan driver in there and it will be 7:35 easy.
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      05-26-2009, 02:28 AM   #306
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Sorry if I reposted.

Also on the bottom of the OP is this:

"The famous Sportauto magazine have tested the GTR In the next issue to, and the rumors say that Horst von sauma (nurburgring testdriver) couldnt get near Nissan "official" nurburgring time."


We are wondering if it is possible to reproduce Nissan's claim.

The GT3/911 times are accepted as being fact and reproduced by several independent sources in a very consistent manner. While the only person who can achieve Nissan's claim time is a Nissan driver.

It's been a year since the GT-R has been out in the hands of pro drivers and surely there must be some other pro who could get closer than the 7:50ish times we've all seen repeated over and over.

When you boast about something like Nissan has, you better be prepared for scrutiny and I can't recall something being so looked over with a fine tooth comb than this lap time. Yet, no evidence supports Nissan's claim other than failure over failure to get this sub 7:30 time. On top of this, everyone of these groups testing now have their warranty voided. hahaha

I demand a recount for my E92 M3, no way it's 8:05...get that Nissan driver in there and it will be 7:35 easy.
It's very hard to argue with the facts that the Porsches do seem to get closer to their official times. But to be fair to Nissan, on every conducted test which have usually involved a Porsche of some sort as a comparison, in those tests neither car have got close to their best though the Porsche does get closest.

Another thing that needs to be considered is that the official Porsche times are actually times reproduced by SportAuto on most occasions.

The whole argument is whether or not the GTR is capable of the times it has done and in this I am 100% convinced that's genuine.
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      05-26-2009, 10:06 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon View Post
Also on the bottom of the OP is this:

"The famous Sportauto magazine have tested the GTR In the next issue to, and the rumors say that Horst von sauma (nurburgring testdriver) couldnt get near Nissan "official" nurburgring time."
Thanks for the link, I didn't see that part. It won't be a surprise that Sportauto doesn't get near that time. The driver alone is good for quite a bit of a difference. Nonetheless, it's interesting to see how far it will be off and how it "fares" against other cars driven by the same guy.


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      05-26-2009, 10:38 AM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Thanks for the link, I didn't see that part. It won't be a surprise that Sportauto doesn't get near that time. The driver alone is good for quite a bit of a difference. Nonetheless, it's interesting to see how far it will be off and how it "fares" against other cars driven by the same guy.


Best regards,
south
I would love to hear your opinion of the CAR magazine test of the GTR vs GT3 and more importantly the facts that the guy doing the driving had never driven a GTR R35 before.

A question to you South, do you believe it's possible to approach a car's true potential the first time you have ever driven it or in the very first lap you do?

I know that Sportauto's times are regarded as the industry standard and all these factory times are in most cases only pie in the sky figures that will never be repeated. I am yet to see a ZR1 lapping in 7:26 or a CTS-V doing an under eight minute lap which begs the question why everyone seems to be on Nissan's case about their times.
footie is offline   No_Country
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