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      03-29-2009, 03:02 PM   #23
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According to BMWUSA.com; unladen weight by US definition:

M6: 3909 lbm
M3: 3704 lbm
Delta: 205 lbm

Actual weight of each car will vary depending on options.

Definition:
The "unladen weight" of a vehicle is the weight equipped and ready for operation on the road including the body, fenders, oil in motor, radiator full of water, with five gallons of gasoline or equivalent weight of other motor fuel; also equipment required by law, and unless exempted under Section 66l, any special cabinets, boxes or body parts permanently attached to the vehicle, and any machinery, equipment or attachment which is attendant to the efficient operation of the body or vehicle. Unladen weight shall not include any load or any machinery or mechanical apparatus, such as, but not limited to, wood saws, well-drilling machines, spray apparatus, tow truck cranes, and grinding equipment. The unladen weight of a vehicle shall have no application in determining any fee under this code or the Revenue and Taxation Code other than Section 9400.
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      03-29-2009, 03:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZJP View Post
No 6MT? Lame.
I'm with you on this one, I might actually have an M6 if I could shift my own gears.
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      03-29-2009, 03:30 PM   #25
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M6 actually isn't super heavy considering its huge size. The idea of the Competition package is something i like however it has to include more changes.
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      03-29-2009, 04:06 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
According to BMWUSA.com; unladen weight by US definition:

M6: 3909 lbm
M3: 3704 lbm
Delta: 205 lbm

Actual weight of each car will vary depending on options.

Definition:
The "unladen weight" of a vehicle is the weight equipped and ready for operation on the road including the body, fenders, oil in motor, radiator full of water, with five gallons of gasoline or equivalent weight of other motor fuel; also equipment required by law, and unless exempted under Section 66l, any special cabinets, boxes or body parts permanently attached to the vehicle, and any machinery, equipment or attachment which is attendant to the efficient operation of the body or vehicle. Unladen weight shall not include any load or any machinery or mechanical apparatus, such as, but not limited to, wood saws, well-drilling machines, spray apparatus, tow truck cranes, and grinding equipment. The unladen weight of a vehicle shall have no application in determining any fee under this code or the Revenue and Taxation Code other than Section 9400.
Thanks.... What is important is the delta between the M3 and M6.... At 200 pounds.... that is not too big a difference.

As I noted above the M6 is often mistakenly believed to weigh as much as the M5. and "alot" more than the M3. Neither is the case. but still all the modern M cars are too heavy.
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      03-29-2009, 08:37 PM   #27
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it really is, and even if it is exclusive, nobody would know!
true
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      03-29-2009, 09:55 PM   #28
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Quote:
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I live in Toronto.... Snow.
I DD my M3 in Edmonton. Come on, you'd be fine
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      03-30-2009, 09:55 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Where are you getting M6 Competition Lap Times??
The times come from the recent Driver Republic comparison test of the M6 Competition vs R8 and 997TT. The Porsche being the quickest with the R8 v8 only being a couple of tenths behind the M6 and this was only due to the fact it wasn't using the ultra sticky rubber of the M6. If that had been the case then the R8 would have easily be quicker and probably as quick as the 997TT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
A delimited M6 will go sub 8 minutes at the ring.
No one including myself could dispute that fact but while it WILL be probably quicker than the less power R8 on the ring there is upwards on hundred tracks where is won't be that quick. Point being is it's a point and squirt motor and not a true track car, in fact a Competition version of the M3 would be far more successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
The M6 is a GT, not a sportscar.... Hella fast for a GT.
You are 100% correct here, it's a GT of sorts. So why throw time, effort and money at a car that clearly will never be anything more than a very quick car but flawed for anything remotely to do with track work which is what BMW are suggesting with this package.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
If BMW wanted to build a supercar, is there any doubt they could?? Audi needed to steal from Lambo to build the R8, they even copied the propensity to catch fire.
I am in complete agreement that BMW are more than capable of building a supercar and I have said as much, whether they have to will or financial backing to go ahead in such a troubled time is very doubtful.

As for you comments on Audi building the R8 on the back of Lamborghini's expertise............ come on TB, even you know that state is laughable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
And BTW, the M6 weighs 3900 pounds which is not much heavier than an M3....
Considering their respective wheelbases are only 20mm different the bulk of the shape and size on each are very similar and should be similar in weight. I would say that their respective bare shells would be within a few kilos of each other and almost all of the weight difference will centre on the engine, drivetrain and suspension.

P.S.
To whom it may concern, no I am not a hater but I am a realist and the fact is that the M3 and possibly the M5 are the only two great M cars currently in production. M6 doesn't really compete against anything else, it's too extreme to rival other GT cars and it's a flawed package to be compared against true sportscars like the R8 and 997, the Z4M is another flawed package, great on the track where it's stiff suspension and direct steering really works well but off the track it's too hard and bouncy to rival the likes of Cayman.

BMW like the others (Audi and Mercedes) are more interested in sales to really concern themselves with producing a truly complete package all of the time. Only the M3 really gets close to this and it's complete domination of it's sector is proof that when they put their minds to it they are unstoppable.
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      03-30-2009, 10:15 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
As for you comments on Audi building the R8 on the back of Lamborghini's expertise............ come on TB, even you know that state is laughable.
I agree that Audi could build such a car even without Lambo's expertise. However there's a big advantage for Audi that BMW doesn't have: Being based on Lamborghini and RS technology allows the R8 to be profitable. BMW couldn't build a mid-engine car and make profit with some 10.000 units sold. Neither could Audi had they not Lambo parts and technology to use.


Best regards, south
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      03-30-2009, 10:21 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderato View Post
I'm with you on this one, I might actually have an M6 if I could shift my own gears.
You can buy a 6-speed m6.
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      03-30-2009, 10:49 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by southlight View Post
I agree that Audi could build such a car even without Lambo's expertise. However there's a big advantage for Audi that BMW doesn't have: Being based on Lamborghini and RS technology allows the R8 to be profitable. BMW couldn't build a mid-engine car and make profit with some 10.000 units sold. Neither could Audi had they not Lambo parts and technology to use.


Best regards, south
I totally agree and have insisted as much on a few occasions, but the facts are that VAG have a lot more financial clout compared to BMW and that is why I doubt BMW will go down the route of producing a supercar at the moment.

What they do (when they put their mind to it) is brilliant, look at the M3 as an example but the sad facts are the M6 is a car that doesn't live up to the hype of the M badge and no 'Competition' package will reverse this opinion.

Another thing, people here are under the opinion that Lamborghini are the driving force behind the Gallardo and that isn't the case, without Audi's expertise in alloy construction and their engine technology there wouldn't have been a car as good as the Gallardo we presently have. I believe that it was always Audi's goal to produce a supercar and that seed was sown before Lamborghini was purchased and probably was the reason why Audi bought them in the first place. They wisely rebuilt Lambo back to greatest before deciding to produce their own car and also realised that the Murcielago was too big and expensive to provide the basis for the R8, they needed a smaller car to use as a donor hence the Gallardo.

I still reckon for BMW to enter into this market Audi's approach is the best solution, purchase a failing supercar company and turn it around and only then feed off it's success. But who's available and does BMW have to money?
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      03-30-2009, 11:37 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I totally agree and have insisted as much on a few occasions, but the facts are that VAG have a lot more financial clout compared to BMW and that is why I doubt BMW will go down the route of producing a supercar at the moment.
Maybe IAA comes with a surprise this year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
What they do (when they put their mind to it) is brilliant, look at the M3 as an example but the sad facts are the M6 is a car that doesn't live up to the hype of the M badge and no 'Competition' package will reverse this opinion.
Yep, the M3 is a great car for what it is. Add a supercar and I'd be really happy with the lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Another thing, people here are under the opinion that Lamborghini are the driving force behind the Gallardo and that isn't the case, without Audi's expertise in alloy construction and their engine technology there wouldn't have been a car as good as the Gallardo we presently have. I believe that it was always Audi's goal to produce a supercar and that seed was sown before Lamborghini was purchased and probably was the reason why Audi bought them in the first place. They wisely rebuilt Lambo back to greatest before deciding to produce their own car and also realised that the Murcielago was too big and expensive to provide the basis for the R8, they needed a smaller car to use as a donor hence the Gallardo.

I still reckon for BMW to enter into this market Audi's approach is the best solution, purchase a failing supercar company and turn it around and only then feed off it's success. But who's available and does BMW have to money?
That's not likely at the moment at all. BMW was said to be interested in Aston Martin (not truly a mid-engine donor though) but backed out as Ford wanted to keep a minority stake.


Best regards, south
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      03-30-2009, 07:34 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
You are 100% correct here, it's a GT of sorts. So why throw time, effort and money at a car that clearly will never be anything more than a very quick car but flawed for anything remotely to do with track work which is what BMW are suggesting with this package.

It is called seperating a person from their money. Honestly there is no cost difference between a regular M6 and the M6 Competition package. The set up they have with the suspension was probably developed during the development of the M6 and shelved in favor of the production set up.

Pull the suspension of a sportier tuning of the M6 suspension, make it a limited run, put a different hood on it, R compounds and charge $10,000 CAD.....

Smart really for BMW....just not smart actually paying for it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Maybe IAA comes with a surprise this year...

If they introduce that Z10 crap (400 hp, mid engine, lightcar).....not interested.
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      03-31-2009, 02:27 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
It is called seperating a person from their money. Honestly there is no cost difference between a regular M6 and the M6 Competition package. The set up they have with the suspension was probably developed during the development of the M6 and shelved in favor of the production set up.

Pull the suspension of a sportier tuning of the M6 suspension, make it a limited run, put a different hood on it, R compounds and charge $10,000 CAD.....

Smart really for BMW....just not smart actually paying for it.
The M6 is in limbo in my opinion, it can't really compete with the Aston Martins, XKs and SLs as a true GT alternative and on the other hand it's too much of a handful to compete with the supercar club that it's price tag and straight line performance suggests.

The real answer is whether the M6 is much of an improvement over the normal 650i M/Sport, given it's excessive price difference and I personally don't think so. In fact I would place the M3 or even the M5 as a much better effort by M-Division to improving an existing model, the sole failing of the M5 has always been it's SMG gearbox, if it had the DCT of the M3 then that car would be close to perfect in much the same way as the M3 is now. Adding this Competition pack hasn't address the fundamental problem with the M6, it's neither a true GT nor a true sportscar.

As you admitted, it's a clever way of separating gullible people from their hard earned dosh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
If they introduce that Z10 crap (400 hp, mid engine, lightcar).....not interested.
Unless it's a light weight, small forced induction engined sportscar that included KERS I think it will fall at the first hurdle. That is no one will see it as special enough and different from the mainstream manufacturers.
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      03-31-2009, 02:41 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The M6 is in limbo in my opinion, it can't really compete with the Aston Martins, XKs and SLs as a true GT alternative and on the other hand it's too much of a handful to compete with the supercar club that it's price tag and straight line performance suggests.
I've agreed with your posts up to here. I can't back this statement up.

The M6 is a perfectly suitable competitor to an Aston Martin, an SL63, and/or an XK-R. Those are direct competitors. It's far better suited at the track than either of these (ok, the V8 Vantage is one Aston that has an edge there, and Mercedes did up the performance on the unusually long-running SL).

It's no slouch on the track. I've driven the M cars extensively, and the M6 suffers from excess weight, but its driving dynamics and the overall raw sensation were amazing.

I think you're giving the car too little credit as this thread goes on. When the M6 came out, the standards for high performance cars were way different than they are today.
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      03-31-2009, 04:43 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
It's no slouch on the track. I've driven the M cars extensively, and the M6 suffers from excess weight, but its driving dynamics and the overall raw sensation were amazing.

I think you're giving the car too little credit as this thread goes on. When the M6 came out, the standards for high performance cars were way different than they are today.
I don't think I am giving the M6 too little credit, it came out after the M5, cost a huge £17K more for the pleasure of removing most of the rear space and taking 2 doors away and yet offers very little in return. The bare bones is that the M6 costs over £80K and apart from straight line speed it doesn't live up to the hype.

The M6 doesn't suffer excessive weight, T Bone highlighted that fact, the problem is that having over 500hp going to the rear wheels with slightly less than ideal weight percentages over the driven wheels have resulted in a car which can't live with the kind of cars it's price tag, power output and badge would suggest.

But this is only one person's opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with that.

The only M car in my opinion that ticks all of the boxes is the M3 and that is why it is so successful, unlike all other M cars.
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      03-31-2009, 09:17 AM   #38
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      04-01-2009, 02:23 PM   #39
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I live in Toronto.... Snow.
That what snow tires are for. Better yet with the 30k you save you can get a cpo x3 or any new jeep.
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      04-01-2009, 07:06 PM   #40
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Being a fan of Honda engines, I requested that they consider building for the F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up with a BMW engine.
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      04-01-2009, 07:31 PM   #41
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Quote:
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Unless it's a light weight, small forced induction engined sportscar that included KERS I think it will fall at the first hurdle. That is no one will see it as special enough and different from the mainstream manufacturers.
How so? A Supercar with a BMW badge will sell regardless of whether or not it performs well. You can't relate the M1 launch to current times.

If they make a supercar, all they have to do is make it a decent DD like the Audi R8. Basically, make a RWD R8. Fuel efficiency would definitely have to be a top priority of course.

If BMW can pull that off, then it should be equally as successful, provided that they don't screw up the exterior.
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      04-01-2009, 08:29 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
How so? A Supercar with a BMW badge will sell regardless of whether or not it performs well. You can't relate the M1 launch to current times.

If they make a supercar, all they have to do is make it a decent DD like the Audi R8. Basically, make a RWD R8. Fuel efficiency would definitely have to be a top priority of course.

If BMW can pull that off, then it should be equally as successful, provided that they don't screw up the exterior.

Also BMWs don't catch on fire like Audis and Lambos..... Audi is working on the R in the R8 stands for Ronson.
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      04-02-2009, 09:09 PM   #43
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Quote:
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The only M car in my opinion that ticks all of the boxes is the M3 and that is why it is so successful, unlike all other M cars.
You may be right about the M3 ticking all the boxes but the only reason the M3 is more successful than the M5 and the M6 is the price. The vast majority of people and I count myself cannot afford an M5/M6 even though for the looks I prefer the M6. So I will fall back on the M3, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
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      04-02-2009, 09:11 PM   #44
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10 M6 Competition Package for Canada. I did not know BMW was selling 10 regular M6s per year in Canada.
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