Login


03252009, 10:24 PM  #1 
Private
8
Rep 83
Posts 
M3 accerlation
Is it just me or is the car designed this way.
I dont feel any jump in HP after i hit 3500rpms. The car pulls just as hard at 8000 as it does at 4000rpms. If this is the case because of the flat torque curve, what's the point of downshifting when trying to gun it while going at, say, 80mph? 
03252009, 10:49 PM  #3  
Captain
12
Rep 614
Posts 
Quote:


Appreciate
0

03252009, 10:50 PM  #4  
Lieutenant
18
Rep 599
Posts 
Quote:


Appreciate
0

03262009, 12:32 AM  #5  
Colonel
40
Rep 2,429
Posts 
Quote:
__________________
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
 John 3:16 

Appreciate
0

03262009, 02:38 AM  #6 
Lieutenant
9
Rep 404
Posts 
I dunno about you guys, but my car's acceleration really gets serious once I've hit 6,000 rpm, not 4,000. Also to say that there is no jump in HP over 3,500 rpm is just...I dunno...dumb. The car definitely pulls much harder at 8,000 rpm than it does at 4,000.
So, yes, if you want to accelerate hard, shift down to a gear where you're above 5,000 rpm. 
Appreciate
0

03262009, 05:44 AM  #7  
First Lieutenant
8
Rep 379
Posts 
Quote:
Yes, the engine torque at 4000 is about the same as at 8000. But the relevant number is the torque at the wheels, i.e. engine torque multiplied by gear ratio. So if at a given speed you can downshift, then you should do so to get maximum acceleration. 

Appreciate
0

03262009, 07:35 AM  #8  
Moderator
1384
Rep 15,790
Posts 
Quote:
Another reason why I love my MDCT. You can downshift quickly to eke the last bit of power out of a lower gear and then upshift rught away once you run out of RPM. The two shifts cost you virtually nothing, so it is worthwhile.
__________________
A genuine BMW effeightzero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the topa da cawr.


Appreciate
0

03262009, 08:09 AM  #9  
Major
35
Rep 1,172
Posts 
Quote:
Quote:
The childish, nonscientific way I understand Torque and Power in my mind (and I know some people will kick me with this): Torque represents the "force" of the engine to turn the crank. The more the torque, the faster the engine climbes in the rpm range (all other things being equal). In the case of the S65 with the flat torque curve, the engine climbes the engine rpm equaly fast irrespective of where you are in the rpm range. Power is the actual "strength" of the engine. In order to get the most power out of the S65 you need to be as close to the redline as possible because this is where this engine deliveres the peak horsepower. 

Appreciate
0

03262009, 09:43 AM  #10 
Private
4
Rep 81
Posts 
Torque provides a measure of instantaneous acceleration. Horsepower gives you a way to measure how LONG you can sustain that acceleration with RPMs and gearing.
In any individual gear with a flat torque curve, there will be no difference in acceleration at 4000 vs 8000 rpms if you are making the same torque at each RPM. The car doesn't accelerate "harder" at higher RPMs unless it is making more gross torque. If you have 300ft lbs at 4000 rpms and 300ft lbs at 8000 rpms and a 12x effective gear multiplication, you've got 3600ftlbs at the wheels whether you are at 3000 or 8000. The acceleration will feel exactly the same if you are in the same gear making the same torque. So, what is horsepower and why does it matter? Horsepower takes into account RPM limits and gearing. If you had a car with a redline of 4000rpms and 300ftlbs, you would have to shift into the next gear and get a lower torque multiplication earlier. The M3 is fast because it can take advantage of the torque multiplication of lower gears longer (all the way to 8000rpms rather than having to shift at 4 or 6000). in any individual gear, the car will accelerate fastest at the torque peak. However, if you had a perfectly efficient continuously variable transmission, the highest acceleration rate of the car would occur at the horsepower peak (you would keep varying the transmission ratio to keep the engine at it's hp peak). horsepower peak gives you the mathematical point at which the torque curve falls at a faster rate than theoretical torque increase available via high rpms and lower gearing. Said another way, you are better off with more torque multiplication in a lower gear at the hp peak (even though you are making less torque) than in a higher gear with less torque multiplication at the torque peak (depending on the transmission gear spacing of course). The gear multiplication more than makes up for the drop in engine torque between the two, so generally HP is better than torque because of transmissions. Thought of another way, the AMG C63 makes a lot more torque than the M3, but the M3 can sustain it's lower level of torque much longer (8300 vs 6800) and the two roughly balance. The M3 is a little guy that can carry 100lbs up the stairs every minute, the AMG is a big guy that can carry 200lbs up the stairs every 2 minutes  same work same amount of time at the end of the day, different styles. 
Appreciate
0

03262009, 09:58 AM  #11  
dork
10
Rep 477
Posts 
Quote:


Appreciate
0

03262009, 11:28 AM  #12 
Private
8
Rep 83
Posts 
wow, what a great explanation. very enlightening. thank u!
but sorry, i missed the part where u explained the "12x effective gear multiplication" or torque multiplication.......... i dont really understand that, but that seems to be a crucial concept because, given what u said, we can upshift at say, 7000rpm and still have the engine fall within our peak torque after the upshift. so what's the point of taking it to 8300.....besides the advantage of cutting down the number of times needed to shift to reach a given speed compared to a car with a lower redline. 
Appreciate
0

03262009, 12:37 PM  #13  
Second Lieutenant
7
Rep 257
Posts
Drives: E93 M3 & Tuned Focus ST
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2008 E93 M3 V8 [0.00]
2002 Honda S2000 [0.00] 1995 Suzuki Cappuccino [0.00] 2005 Boxster S [0.00] 2007 Ford Focus ST [0.00] 
Quote:
eg. 4000rpm in 2nd gear will accelerate faster than 4000rpm in 3rd in the same way that 8000rpm in 3rd will be faster than 8000rpm in 4th
__________________
E93 ///M3 MDCT
Testing soon: Lambo LP670 SV and Ferrari 430 Scuderia 

Appreciate
0

03262009, 01:13 PM  #15  
Lieutenant
6
Rep 431
Posts 
Quote:


Appreciate
0

03262009, 01:47 PM  #17 
Lieutenant
6
Rep 431
Posts 

Appreciate
0

03262009, 02:20 PM  #18 
Moderator
1384
Rep 15,790
Posts 
Less torque, yes, but much more power.
__________________
A genuine BMW effeightzero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the topa da cawr.

Appreciate
0

03262009, 02:26 PM  #19 
Private
4
Rep 81
Posts 
cool graph  good way to see "area under the curve."
The math isn't that difficult really, say you have a car that has a 4:1 first gear, a 3:1 final drive and a 24 inch tire (1 foot from center of wheel to pavement). Now assume you have two engines with flat, 300ftlb torque curves but one revs to 6000 and one revs to 8000RPMs. At 6k, they each make 4*3*1*300 = 3600lbs of torque at the pavement, so the acceleration would be exactly the same. But, the 6k engine has to shift to 2nd gear at 6k. Say second is 3:1, so the 6k car drops to 4500rpms and is making only (3*3*1*300 = 2700ftlbs) while the 8k engine continues to put 3600ftlbs to the ground for 2000 more rpms. About the time you have to shift to second in the 8k, the 6k will have to shift to third. The 8k engine will always be making more torque at the wheels due to its gearing advantage which is a result of it's RPM advantage. Torque at high RPMs is better than torque at lower RPMs because of gearing. 
Appreciate
0

03262009, 02:32 PM  #20 
Private
4
Rep 81
Posts 
There's no such thing as "power" without considering gearing. Power can be simplified as "torque after taking into account gearing."
The M3 in fact accelerates harder in individual gears at 3k and 4k than 8k. It feels faster at 8k because it's a lot louder. If you are talking about 1 single gear (3rd for example), torque is the only relavant measure and the M3 makes a little more torque at 4k than 8k, so it accelerates harder in 3rd at 4k (albeit more quietly). 
Appreciate
0

03262009, 02:51 PM  #21  
Moderator
1384
Rep 15,790
Posts 
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
A genuine BMW effeightzero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the topa da cawr.


Appreciate
0

Post Reply 
Bookmarks 
Thread Tools  Search this Thread 

