BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
GetBMWParts
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-31-2009, 12:11 PM   #23
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,200
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank@CEC View Post
Hi swamp2,

Not trying to start an opinion war or anything, but this topic has been discussed for years...remember Neuspeed? They made a solid construction strut brace for the GTI crowd with this claim. Tests were done, and the benefits over a pivoting or multi-piece strut brace could not be concluded.

The fact is that you do feel a difference it the roll and flatness of the car after installing the rear strut brace. Not like you "feel" horsepower gains. It ties the body together between the upper end of the strut towers. This fact alone makes the body stiffer. Now can a solid bar make it stiffer? How much stiffer? Will a triangle bar welded between both struts and the rear of the truck be even stiffer? At the end of the day, with this bar you have an easy disconnect feature which is not available with the solid bar design. No need to remove all of your interior as in the picture above. Some of us still need our trunk sometimes. IMO this is the perfect solution for a rear strut brace.

Again, just giving the benefit of why ACS made the bar this way.
I'm quite keen to see those tests, any references?

As well I'd simply LOVE to run a blind test. I'd be willing to bet you could not feel the bar, nor measure it in lap time improvements.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-31-2009, 09:53 PM   #24
jajr1098s
Enlisted Member
 
jajr1098s's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 AW M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NY-NJ

Posts: 38
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake View Post
well i was never passed today if that means anything car handled beautifully in the corners, a lot more planted with a ton less roll versus my last event.
What track where you at?
__________________
AW Painted Reflectors, StopTech BBK, TC Kline D/A, LM-R's/Street, CCW C-10's/track, 3M Clear bra and 35% tint by T.O.T.L
jajr1098s is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2009, 05:14 PM   #25
Frank@CEC
 
Frank@CEC's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 AW/BLK
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coral Gables, FL

Posts: 372
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'm quite keen to see those tests, any references?

As well I'd simply LOVE to run a blind test. I'd be willing to bet you could not feel the bar, nor measure it in lap time improvements.
Unfortunately, a blind test would be difficult to do. I have a bit of experience when it comes to tuning cars. I have been at the manufacture level of this industry since 1998. (I have read some of your posts and I know you are educated in vehicle tuning as well ) So peer to peer. I have personally felt the difference in the feel of the vehicle with this rear strut brace installed.

Blake, please correct me if I'm wrong. The vehicle feels very different with the bar installed, correct? Not a little. Not "I think it feels stiffer". It really does have a very noticeable change in roll and flatness on the turns. I'm willing to bet that any style rear strut brace, not just the ACS, will improve roll on the E92 M3. It is simply providing rigidity at a point in the body known to roll and flex. This is nothing new. Not ground breaking in anyway, but definitely a worthwhile mod that you can feel.
Frank@CEC is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2009, 05:41 PM   #26
Blake
Banned
 
Drives: Chevy Aveo
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Parent's Basement

Posts: 4,651
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank@CEC View Post
Blake, please correct me if I'm wrong. The vehicle feels very different with the bar installed, correct? Not a little. Not "I think it feels stiffer". It really does have a very noticeable change in roll and flatness on the turns. I'm willing to bet that any style rear strut brace, not just the ACS, will improve roll on the E92 M3. It is simply providing rigidity at a point in the body known to roll and flex. This is nothing new. Not ground breaking in anyway, but definitely a worthwhile mod that you can feel.
it does feel significantly stiffer. like you said, there is a real quantifiable difference in feel, especially in our heavy cars, with the way the vehicle rolls. the roll has been significantly reduced. the car feels more confident in the corners and i'm able to power out of the apex much more aggressively than before. naturally, this is because the suspension has that counteracting force to the flex/roll. i drove the car for 14kmi without the brace, and i've had it on for about 1000 miles now, and i can definitely tell the difference, and i bet the layman would too. stupid mod, i don't think so. the suspension and brakes are the 2 things on our cars that i think need to be improved most, and the rear strut brace is a good place to start. anyone can call my bluff as much as they want, but don't knock it until you try it.
Blake is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2009, 08:33 PM   #27
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,200
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank@CEC View Post
Unfortunately, a blind test would be difficult to do. I have a bit of experience when it comes to tuning cars. I have been at the manufacture level of this industry since 1998. (I have read some of your posts and I know you are educated in vehicle tuning as well ) So peer to peer. I have personally felt the difference in the feel of the vehicle with this rear strut brace installed.

Blake, please correct me if I'm wrong. The vehicle feels very different with the bar installed, correct? Not a little. Not "I think it feels stiffer". It really does have a very noticeable change in roll and flatness on the turns. I'm willing to bet that any style rear strut brace, not just the ACS, will improve roll on the E92 M3. It is simply providing rigidity at a point in the body known to roll and flex. This is nothing new. Not ground breaking in anyway, but definitely a worthwhile mod that you can feel.
OK, to be clear such a mod will not really affect the roll much. Why? Roll is governed in order of importance by 1. The sway bar stiffness and 2. The strut/shock stiffness. A solid design strut bar would contribute as well. However, this roll bar by it very nature does not increase the relative vertical stiffness between the shock towers. Christ it HAS A PIVOT - A MECHANICAL JOINT that clearly allows relative vertical (well almost vertical - on a relatively long arc) movement. It does do a better job when the main rectangular beam is in tension or compression preventing the distance between the tops of the shock towers from changing. Unfortunately this type of load is really small compared to the load trying to push in the direction allowed by the system.

Do I have to repeat my statement about how almost all folks, even tuners, vendors and experienced drivers are easily fooled by the louder = more power = faster phenomena? Psychology is powerful. As is basic engineering kinematics...

Once again, do you have the reference I asked about previously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake View Post
there is a real quantifiable difference in feel
You do realize this statement is an enormous oxymoron, right? If you have some quantified differences please provide the numbers.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2009, 09:11 PM   #28
Blake
Banned
 
Drives: Chevy Aveo
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Parent's Basement

Posts: 4,651
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
You do realize this statement is an enormous oxymoron, right? If you have some quantified differences please provide the numbers.
then name me a test, i'd be more than happy testing it out. skid pad is the only thing that i can possibly think of that might show numbers, and i have access to one.
Blake is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      04-01-2009, 10:41 PM   #29
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,200
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake View Post
then name me a test, i'd be more than happy testing it out. skid pad is the only thing that i can possibly think of that might show numbers, and i have access to one.
I'm not saying that one can not feel handling differences. Heck drive a Lotus Elise then drive an old Cadillac. All I was pointing out was that "feel" and "quantifiable" don't belong in the same sentence. I can think of many tests to show that this part does not add rear torsional stiffness, but none of them are particularly easy.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-02-2009, 09:10 AM   #30
BMWDEMON
Super modder
 
BMWDEMON's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3 & E46 M3 vert
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Annapolis, MD

Posts: 1,798
iTrader: (1)

I think it would be easy to prove the point...run the track and get your times, then remove the bar and do it again...that at least is a start to making the statement that the car is more planted...that in my eyes would = better lap times? If you can find someone local to purchase a one piece rear strut brace you could add in a 3rd variable...simple enough?

My .02 is that for a simple bar that $700.00 is insanely expensive...simply insane. There is no real R&D and easy to produce...there has never been any real change over any of the different M3's so why so expensive???????????

M
__________________
BOOSTED! 2005 E46 M3 ZCP - I/B on black- DD super modded (425WHP/300FT)
SELLING MODS IN HAND!!!!Akro slip on and Challenge diffuser - PM me if interested!!!!
BMWDEMON is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-02-2009, 11:26 AM   #31
Frank@CEC
 
Frank@CEC's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 AW/BLK
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coral Gables, FL

Posts: 372
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWDEMON View Post
I think it would be easy to prove the point...run the track and get your times, then remove the bar and do it again...that at least is a start to making the statement that the car is more planted...that in my eyes would = better lap times? If you can find someone local to purchase a one piece rear strut brace you could add in a 3rd variable...simple enough?

My .02 is that for a simple bar that $700.00 is insanely expensive...simply insane. There is no real R&D and easy to produce...there has never been any real change over any of the different M3's so why so expensive???????????

M
Hi BMWDEMON,

To answer your question regarding cost, many factors are contributed to the expense.

1. This part is manufactured in Germany.
2. The bar is made a machined out of high grade billet aluminum and treated with a hard anodizing process.
3. R&D and tested on the Nurburgring.
4. TUV approved.
5. Low volume production item.
6. Euro to USD exchange rate.
7. Importation and transit costs.

Many can easily replicate the bar's design and manufacture in say Asia, but like all of the other replica parts, this would only be a cosmetic solution. As stated above, the rigidity of the bar is a crucial component to it's function. Using a lesser grade material would substantially effect performance.

So we come back to the old topic. What makes more sense? A $450 cosmetic "suspension" component, with sub par materials or a quality product that has been originally designed, tested, and approved for $700.

The average M3 customer purchases the vehicle for it's performance capabilities. Are there other vehicles on the market for a better price? Sure, but it's difficult to compete with a tried and tested product like the M3. Unfortunately, some consumers do not take as much time to educate themselves on the tuning of these vehicles. They make purchasing decisions based on price and not quality, fitment, or testing. These purchases enable these replica companies to produce lesser quality parts that are untested and unregulated. This creates a sub level of the industry that gives tuning in general a bad name.

I've read many post that say, "you can't expect for aftermarket parts to fit better than OEM." Why? You can expect this. You should expect this. After all, why change a part on your car that is lesser quality than the original part?

But you must also expect to pay more for these parts. Tuners work on a production scale much smaller than OE manufactures.

The smaller the production the higher the costs. So when we support replica companies we effectively push up the cost of doing business for the original designer/manufacture. This increases the overall price of the product to the consumer.

If we slim the profits of these tuners to the point that it is not cost effective to do business properly, we will all suffer. We will suffer from a void of quality products that have been originally designed and tested to legitimately improve performance.

BTW, AC Schnitzer is a subsidiary of Kohl BMW. Their affiliation with BMW AG requires them to produce products that are not only TUV approved, but also approved by BMW AG. BMW AG requires ACS to test and prove that all of their products meet or exceed BMW OE manufacturing. This is why ACS is sold at the BMW parts counter in every market in the world. Their commitment and focus to BMW tuning is unmatched by any other tuner in the world. So though it might seem expensive, you can be assured that any original ACS product will be tested and approved to improve your specific BMW's performance.

So that's why...
Frank@CEC is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-02-2009, 12:51 PM   #32
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,200
iTrader: (1)

Here we go. Might get ugly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank@CEC View Post
Hi BMWDEMON,

To answer your question regarding cost, many factors are contributed to the expense.

...

2. The bar is made a machined out of high grade billet aluminum and treated with a hard anodizing process.
I am officially challenging this statement. The bar itself it neither billet, machined nor hard anodized. What is my evidence of this. Common sense. The main center section is a standard piece of drawn/extruded rectangular aluminum. This is "off the shelf" type of material. From a manufacturing perspective (in which I have a background) it would be absurd to use anything else. Since it is "tube stock" is is not billet, it is simply cut to length with a metal cut off saw. Next hard anodize. No, this is cosmetically clear anodized. Hard anodize is dark brown or black ONLY.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank@CEC View Post
3. R&D and tested on the Nurburgring.
Again I challenge this. Unless this silly thing is made nearby to the town where the track is I would be willing to bet it was not researched and developed (R&D) AND tested at the Ring.

This part is beyond simple. I could design it in a single day, machine it with no CNC equipment, get it anodized the next and installed. My total cost would be about $100, including a $50 lot charge for low volume anodizing.

Your credibility is seriously called into question here.

I look forward to any evidence to back up your claims whatsoever.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-02-2009, 04:27 PM   #33
Frank@CEC
 
Frank@CEC's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 AW/BLK
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coral Gables, FL

Posts: 372
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Here we go. Might get ugly...

Again I challenge this. Unless this silly thing is made nearby to the town where the track is I would be willing to bet it was not researched and developed (R&D) AND tested at the Ring.


Your credibility is seriously called into question here.

I look forward to any evidence to back up your claims whatsoever.
This will not get ugly...

What do you know of ACS? Why are you so quick to question their R&D and manufacturing process?

I have been to their facility. Met with their designers and engineers. Taken two cars around the Nurburgring with ACS during the testing of their latest racing suspension for the E9X M3. But my guess is you won't take my word for it. If I've lost credibility in your mind, so be it.
Frank@CEC is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-02-2009, 04:51 PM   #34
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,200
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank@CEC View Post
This will not get ugly...

What do you know of ACS? Why are you so quick to question their R&D and manufacturing process?

I have been to their facility. Met with their designers and engineers. Taken two cars around the Nurburgring with ACS during the testing of their latest racing suspension for the E9X M3. But my guess is you won't take my word for it. If I've lost credibility in your mind, so be it.
I am challenging your credibility as your knowledge of manufacturing is nearly nil. Sorry, but I call it like it see it, bluntly. You are avoiding my direct challenge as well.

I am not a wagering man, but in this case it is like candy from a baby. How about a bet. That should put an end to your drivel.

The cross bar part in this strut brace design is NOT:

1. Billet
2. Machined
3. Hard anodized.
4. R AND D-ed at the Nurburgring

I would bet pinks on this. Put up or shut up, really.

I have ABSOLUTELY nothing against ACS but vendors who have little knowledge of what they sell and provide such false technical information - that is another story. As well I won't be willing to back down from the proposition that this design is fundamentally flawed.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-03-2009, 02:29 AM   #35
spyderco10
Colonel
 
spyderco10's Avatar
 
Drives: AW E92 M3 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Honolulu, HI

Posts: 2,425
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I have never understood the benefits of a multiple piece strut brace with mechanical pivots in its construction. Your rear mounting points can still move significantly relative to each other in the vertical direction. Not a mod I would waste any money on.
who cares about function as long as it looks nice
__________________
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
- John 3:16
spyderco10 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-03-2009, 02:47 AM   #36
Blake
Banned
 
Drives: Chevy Aveo
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Parent's Basement

Posts: 4,651
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderco10 View Post
who cares about function as long as it looks nice
there's always someone to say something isn't as it seems. looks nice, yes, but serves a function, too.
Blake is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      04-03-2009, 04:31 PM   #37
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,200
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Put up or shut up, really.
.......... We are waiting....

swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-03-2009, 05:05 PM   #38
sparkyg
Brigadier General
 
sparkyg's Avatar
 
Drives: EBII 2014 F31 328xi
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oil Country

Posts: 3,493
iTrader: (5)

Hey swamp2, what makes you so sure it is not billet

"Billet refers to a cast semi finished product. It is also referred to as ingot, particularly for smaller sizes. A billet is typically cast to a rectangular, hexagonal or round cross section compatible with secondary processing, e.g. forging. It can be produced either as coil or cut lengths. Ingots and billets are collectively known as bar stock."

Bar stock is pretty common to get and it sounds like it can be machined from it.

Blake, are there marks on the metal that you can see through the clearcoat that show it was machined? They will be most likely circumferencial along the top from the milling machine?

On the topic of Hardcoat anodizing

"Hardcoat Anodizing (Architectural Type III) provides additional protective properties. They are an excellent choice for parts in "high wear" environments. Hard coatings have a Rockwell Hardness Scale rating of C-60 / 70, hardness second only to diamonds.

As well as being virtually corrosion-proof, hardcoating resists:

scratches and abrasions
changes in temperature
moisture and humidity
mold and fungus
salt spray
abrasives
chemicals
petroleum products

Hardcoat color choices include black, grays, and clear."

Sounds like clear is an option, so things look plausible.
sparkyg is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      04-03-2009, 10:18 PM   #39
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,200
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkyg View Post
Hey swamp2, what makes you so sure it is not billet

...

Sounds like clear is an option, so things look plausible.
Don't think so.

Billet is SOLID bar then machined to shape. Billet is not used to describe extruded tubing which this part is, 99.9% sure.

HARD anodizing is black or brown, never clear. Only regular anodize is clear. Regular anodize is very thin and more or less cosmetic with some wear protection. Hard anozdize builds up a few mils (1/1000th of in inch) of thickness and is considerably harder and more wear resistance than regular anozdize. In industry lingo regular is Type I (Chromic acid) or Type II (Sulfuric acid). Hard is Type III which is also Chromic. I have NEVER seen a clear Type III hard. I am virtually certain you can not get it in clear. Even if you could it would be too expensive and not needed on such a part. It only requires a cosmetic anodize.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-03-2009, 10:32 PM   #40
Orb
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 335
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada

Posts: 1,734
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkyg View Post
Hey swamp2, what makes you so sure it is not billet

"Billet refers to a cast semi finished product. It is also referred to as ingot, particularly for smaller sizes. A billet is typically cast to a rectangular, hexagonal or round cross section compatible with secondary processing, e.g. forging. It can be produced either as coil or cut lengths. Ingots and billets are collectively known as bar stock."

Bar stock is pretty common to get and it sounds like it can be machined from it.

Blake, are there marks on the metal that you can see through the clearcoat that show it was machined? They will be most likely circumferencial along the top from the milling machine?

On the topic of Hardcoat anodizing

"Hardcoat Anodizing (Architectural Type III) provides additional protective properties. They are an excellent choice for parts in "high wear" environments. Hard coatings have a Rockwell Hardness Scale rating of C-60 / 70, hardness second only to diamonds.

As well as being virtually corrosion-proof, hardcoating resists:

scratches and abrasions
changes in temperature
moisture and humidity
mold and fungus
salt spray
abrasives
chemicals
petroleum products

Hardcoat color choices include black, grays, and clear."

Sounds like clear is an option, so things look plausible.
Your right as always....hard coat type III class 2 does come in clear but it has a green tint.

I do think swamp2 mentioned the most important issue. The thing (I'm not sure what to call it) doesn't do anything for stiffening the chassis that I can see. The vendor may want to clearly show the load case by asking engineering. It can only work in tension nonetheless. I’m willing to look at suggestions?

Yet another trinket…..

Orb

Last edited by Orb; 04-04-2009 at 12:19 AM.
Orb is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      04-04-2009, 11:17 AM   #41
sparkyg
Brigadier General
 
sparkyg's Avatar
 
Drives: EBII 2014 F31 328xi
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oil Country

Posts: 3,493
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb View Post
Your right as always....hard coat type III class 2 does come in clear but it has a green tint.

I do think swamp2 mentioned the most important issue. The thing (I'm not sure what to call it) doesn't do anything for stiffening the chassis that I can see. The vendor may want to clearly show the load case by asking engineering. It can only work in tension nonetheless. I’m willing to look at suggestions?

Yet another trinket…..

Orb
Aside from arguing over the manufacturing process I am not sure the strut brace is the best mod but still a good mod.

Better tires would prob be a better investment. Still is cool. Yes another trinket
sparkyg is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      04-04-2009, 01:25 PM   #42
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,200
iTrader: (1)

Another ignorant vendors BS claims completely shot down.

/thread
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      04-04-2009, 02:13 PM   #43
kmarei
Major General
 
kmarei's Avatar
 
Drives: 1988 E30 M3 Evo II
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reston, VA

Posts: 6,479
iTrader: (33)

Garage List
why don't we ask the manufacturer for the testing data they got when they tested at nurburgring?
i am sure they drove a regular M3 and an M3 with the bar installed?
i am sure they kept record of all the times they did
or they just threw away all this money
but in all honesty
this strut bar does look very flimsy
the thickness of the 2 solid points on either side looks very weak
and all this presure its being subjected to is only being help together by the 2 bolts?


i have used a front strut brace before
and it made a huge difference
but my car was a convertible so might not be the same case
but i doubt the effectiveness for the rear since that's an enclosed space
meaning the rear metal parcel shelf adds ridgity already
whereas the front strut brace is the only solid thing between the 2 strut towers
since hood doesn't add any ridgity
kmarei is offline   Egypt
0
Reply With Quote
      04-04-2009, 04:31 PM   #44
J08M3
Major General
 
J08M3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 M3 COUPE
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NEW YORK

Posts: 6,012
iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Don't think so.

Billet is SOLID bar then machined to shape. Billet is not used to describe extruded tubing which this part is, 99.9% sure.
+1
I'm with you on this one. Billet is machined, not cast or extruded.
__________________
J08M3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:58 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST