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      03-23-2009, 03:25 PM   #1
T Bone
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Thumbs down X5M / X6M - 550 hp Twin Scroll Turbos

http://jalopnik.com/5164920/bmw-x5-m...scroll-details

This thread belongs in many places but the subject matter is the direction of BMW ///M, of which, I am very concerned.

So basically the web designers put the tags 550 hp and twin-scroll turbo when they did the X6M / X5M preview.

I am concerned because BMW's new head of ///M has said that they are working on a derivative of the X5M / X6M engine for the new M5 / M6. Additionaly, BMW M is looking at perhaps an I4 or V6 turbo for the next generation M3.

I have real problems with turbocharging for the M cars. Even the best turbo motors today have turbo lag and like most M people, I love the engine comes alive near the redline (where the engine spends its time in acceleration). With turbocharging, even the great N54 wheezes at high rpm.

This means our cherished M cars are going to feel like AMGs which is rubbish.

Write BMW, this is going to be awful.
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      03-23-2009, 03:35 PM   #2
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well, BMW M obvi has done some homework and feel there is a demand for these types of vehicles; if this is going to turn a profit for them (i.e..enabling them to continue R&D and devise new innovative engines, cars, etc.), I'd rather see that then have them struggle and cut corners with future generation M cars due to lack of operating revenue. Def agree with you about keeping the exclusivity of M and sincerely hope they dont become "AMG cars"...so to speak...however, lets not completely throw in the towel until we see what these cars are capable of when they arrive. I am particularly looking forward to a Twin Turbo M3....coupled with prodigious M engineering, I think that car has the potential of being an all out monster!! We shall see though.
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      03-23-2009, 03:46 PM   #3
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Looks like they need to go this path to get less emissions but improve on performance and MPG. Everybody except Mercedes is going this path these days. Hope they don't kill the legendary feel.
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Being a fan of Honda engines, I requested that they consider building for the F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up with a BMW engine.
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      03-23-2009, 08:08 PM   #4
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You could see this coming from a mile away. Why do you think BMW introduced the 335 as soon as they did? With one of the most successful cars BMW is selling (popularity wise), they get real world data and responses about the turbo.

Efficiency is going to be on everyone's mind, even those purchasing some higher end vehicles. Is it a bad thing that BMW is striving for ways to develop an M car that does not get horrible mileage while still delivering quality M power? No.

Sure, it might have some slight lag. I still don't find the lag in those engines to be bad at all.


I say bring it on. Producing cars that get 11 mpg in the city (even that is generous) will not cut it. If your not making advances, your falling behind.


BMW, you have my support in bringing FI to the M cars.
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      03-23-2009, 08:24 PM   #5
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M cars with low end torque and great handling? I know NA's feel special, but this would be the complete package for everyday driving.
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      03-23-2009, 08:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarian19 View Post

BMW, you have my support in bringing FI to the M cars.
Sick Sick Sick! I agree.
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      03-23-2009, 09:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amgthis View Post
M cars with low end torque and great handling? I know NA's feel special, but this would be the complete package for everyday driving.

But not at the expense of a wheezy top end....this is where the engine spends its time under full acceleration.

Look at our roots an E30 M3....DTM.....now they have silly 5000 pound 550 hp trucks with the same badge.

They are going to build heavy, torquey fat cars with no top end.... Not ///M
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      03-23-2009, 09:33 PM   #8
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Finally the //M badgewhores will be forced to shut up.


Hopefully they'll put it in the next M5 though. Heh
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      03-23-2009, 09:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
But not at the expense of a wheezy top end....this is where the engine spends its time under full acceleration.

Look at our roots an E30 M3....DTM.....now they have silly 5000 pound 550 hp trucks with the same badge.

They are going to build heavy, torquey fat cars with no top end.... Not ///M
I too wish they would keep high revving engines, but at the end of the day, if they think twin turbos will sell, they'll sell it.
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      03-23-2009, 09:52 PM   #10
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im all about the high revving NA but seriously theres no doubt in my mind that the new M's will be breath taking. i love all the NA M engines but it wasnt going to last.

the 335 is already a fast non-M car. imagine what the M division will be able to squeeze out of turbos. im sure when they are released there will be plenty of " o shit the new M's are so sick!!!!!"
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      03-23-2009, 09:52 PM   #11
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The S65 may well be the last of the great motors.

I had a 335, the N54 is no S65, not even close. The N54 really should never be in a M car.
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      03-23-2009, 09:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkyg View Post
The S65 may well be the last of the great motors.

I had a 335, the N54 is no S65, not even close. The N54 really should never be in a M car.
why dont people understand

the N54 is a non-M engine. meaning it is a "normal" car-----not a M car. if M got dirty with a N54 im sure it would be very different.
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      03-23-2009, 09:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMazing07 View Post
why dont people understand

the N54 is a non-M engine. meaning it is a "normal" car-----not a M car. if M got dirty with a N54 im sure it would be very different.
Exactly. Some think BMW took the N54 engine, chipped it and slapped on //M badges. It fortunately dosent work like that.

There is a reason they are working an "all new twin turbo 6" for the next gen M3.
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      03-23-2009, 10:10 PM   #14
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I hate to point this little tid bit out but a decent size turbo will give you more top end than any naturally asperated equivalent. Hence with a single 35r on a I6 for example you will not only have great spool up but top end as well. Furthermore you will most likely be able to up the rpms and get even more accelleration if the head is built right. And please lets not mention lag because lag is a figment of many 335 owner's imagination. There is plenty of power down low with a n/a 6 to begin with.
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      03-24-2009, 12:03 AM   #15
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      03-24-2009, 02:12 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
But not at the expense of a wheezy top end....this is where the engine spends its time under full acceleration.

Look at our roots an E30 M3....DTM.....now they have silly 5000 pound 550 hp trucks with the same badge.

They are going to build heavy, torquey fat cars with no top end.... Not ///M
You know the N54 wasnt built as a all out performance engine and the 335i wasnt built as a sports car, it was made to be smooth strong everyday engine.

Just because a cars turbo doesnt mean its going to be a terrible engine with nothing up top. Ferrari made awesome turbo engines, i dont see people complaining about small turbo engines in ferraris which really is the pinnacle of NA.

You look at most hi performance turbo engines and they dont let up all the way to red line. I came from a 01 Celica and it was s/c and most people went turbo but the thing is we all still revved up to 8500-9000rpm and the engine made huge power up top and it was still a high revving machine.

Theres no reason a turbo engine cant rev up to 8000rpm+ and still have a linear power curve which doesnt tapper off.
Just for fun, here is a turbo m3 dyno.


Just shows that M designed engine + properly sized turbo will equal 1 bad ass M.
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      03-24-2009, 07:07 AM   #17
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I LOVE the fact engines get smaller and more powerful with use of turbos ETC. Like the new 5 cylinder 2,5 Audi TT-RS engine
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      03-24-2009, 07:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMazing07 View Post
why dont people understand

the N54 is a non-M engine. meaning it is a "normal" car-----not a M car. if M got dirty with a N54 im sure it would be very different.
You can't get something for nothing. As the engine RPM rises so too does boost pressure and at some point the two cannot keep rising. BMW can try what they want but unless it is a F1 car I don't see them getting this right. On top of this the HPFP debacle will continue to rear its ugly head, that disaster is not done yet.

The NA car just keeps pulling and pulling beyond the rev limiter if you want. I'd be shocked if any turbo car could do the same. Sooner or later the boost will be bypassed and the car will wheez out.

I'm with Tbone, the end of M is near.

I am planning on going to Austria for the X5M/X6M event so we'll see how close they got the engine right.
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      03-24-2009, 09:07 AM   #19
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I would rather see less weight in the M cars than more power
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      03-24-2009, 10:31 AM   #20
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i just don't see the point of upping the power in every new generation. I found even 333hp in the e46 m3 is more than enough to get yourself into trouble on the street.
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      03-24-2009, 10:48 AM   #21
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Quote:
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I would rather see less weight in the M cars than more power
+1, less fat, more muscle. They could lighten the front clip, rear trunk and and some tricks under the car too in the subframe for example.
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      03-24-2009, 12:13 PM   #22
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enough with the hp issue...this thing needs torque , at least 800Nm....look at AMGs they are such fun to drive....u got 1000Nm in most of them....near 1400Nm in GV12 Brabus , that is insane
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