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      03-24-2009, 02:06 AM   #1
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Maybe the sky is falling!

We can press ahead with the "Obama is a Clown" or "It's all GW's fault" if we want to continue the mud slinging BUT this federal budget crap is now getting serious. It's past time for us to contact our folks in D.C to slow down. The AP put out the following:


By ANDREW TAYLOR, Associated Press Writer Andrew Taylor, Associated Press Writer
Fri Mar 20, 7:43 pm ET

WASHINGTON President Barack Obama's budget would produce $9.3 trillion in deficits over the next decade, more than four times the deficits of Republican George W. Bush's presidency, congressional auditors said Friday.

The new Congressional Budget Office figures offered a far more dire outlook for Obama's budget than the new administration predicted just last month a deficit $2.3 trillion worse. It's a prospect even the president's own budget director called unsustainable.........

But Obama insisted on Friday that his agenda is still on track.

Read the whole thing if you have the stomach:

http://news.yahoo.com:80/s/ap/200903...a_budget/print

We have the crazy Democrats pushing every stinking worthless program with no regard to the people that actually work and pay the taxes and across the aisle we have the Republicans jumping up and down with glee saying:"yippee Obama is going to sink the USA."

I would be happy to write my congressman (as if it would do any good) but I'd rather support an organization that is PRO TAX PAYER, PRO GOOD GOVERNMENT or similar (not some front for a political party.) Does anyone know a website that is run by someone that lobbies against government waste (and I mean has a voice in Washington?)

My ever-so-humble-but-accurate opinion is my own.
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      03-24-2009, 07:52 AM   #2
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He is the messiah, quit your worrying.

"Hey woman, get in that kitchen and fill the Kool-Aid jug back up, we are getting low out here!"
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      03-24-2009, 08:39 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by JB135i View Post
He is the messiah, quit your worrying.

"Hey woman, get in that kitchen and fill the Kool-Aid jug back up, we are getting low out here!"
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      03-24-2009, 10:08 AM   #4
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Don't worry. He will take care of everything for us. He will pay our mortgages, put gas in our cars, provide us health care. He can do no wrong. He can always just tax those filthy rich people at 90% and just take over any company he wants so he can provide for us. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...302830_pf.html

I'm not going to worry till he starts talking about quadrillion dollar budgets. Now that is a lot of zeros!!
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      03-24-2009, 08:11 PM   #5
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I realize that this is a thread dominated by people who were probably opposed to Obama even while he was running, but here goes:

The Bush administration, as well as most economist believed that we were heading for a Depression if we didnt change how the credit market was not lending. Do you propose that the government sit around, hugs its money and hope that the Depression doesnt come? Would you rather we dont spend and hope that things just work themselves out?

The problem is that banks weren't/aren't lending. period. no amount of thriftiness is going to resolve that. It was important that the government take some of those assets and began to provide growth in some industries until the private sector begins to spend again.

Do you think its wrong to tax those who decide to give out huge bonuses when they recently said they can't make it without government's help?

I agree with what you stated above. This should be a logical discussion and shouldn't divert into silliness.
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      03-24-2009, 08:15 PM   #6
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I'd be interested in knowing what you think the better alternatives are.
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      03-24-2009, 10:20 PM   #7
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dont worry - Barack we rebuild this nation! I have faith.
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      03-24-2009, 10:46 PM   #8
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Alternatives

Alternatives - a fair question. Oh yes I see alternatives.

My alternatives would spend money that: builds highways, drills for more oil, and builds more manufacturing plants in the USA. Tax incentives go a long way to help these things. We should drill on main street if there's oil. I guessing that over 90% of all the Americans that have lived or will ever live will never see the beauty of Alaska and yet we don't want to drill near a tiny park.

More alternatives include slowing down give-aways such as $900M to the Palestinians. If we don't have the money, we don't have it.

You stated:
"The problem is that banks weren't/aren't lending. period. no amount of thriftiness is going to resolve that. It was important that the government take some of those assets and began to provide growth in some industries until the private sector begins to spend again."

You hit the nail on the head. I agree with that. Our government should not sit around hugging the money. The problem I have is simply this:

"It's a prospect even the president's own budget director called unsustainable." Those are not my words. Those are from Obama's budget director. To me that means "Bare Bones - No Pork - No Give-aways." Sometimes you have to back up and say: "Sorry, we're tapped out today....ask for a donation tomorrow." We can't do everything.

You asked:
"Do you think its wrong to tax those who decide to give out huge bonuses when they recently said they can't make it without government's help? "

No, I don't think taxing the bonuses is the answer. My gut feeling is that there is something criminal associated with these people (no proof - just a gut feel). I also feel sick when I see the CEO of GM saying that his $16M salary is fair.

I know it's not simple, but I still think the sky is falling.

My ever-so-humble-but-accurate opinion is my own.
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      03-25-2009, 07:36 AM   #9
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It looks like you agree with the large infrastructure spending in the budget then. The budget does provide spending for roads, bridges, etc.

OIL:
As far as oil is concerned, the companies have the ability to drill anytime they want. There are millions of acres they have not drilled on when they have the ability to. But, of course, keep in mind that most of the oil will be going to China. I know you know better, but most people that say "Drill baby drill" think that if we drill we will keep the oil and our oil prices will go down. This couldn't be more wrong, as oil is a global commodity. Most estimates say that new drilling from the US could effect the price of oil by about 7 cents in 10 years.

PORK:
Its said that the the budget contains a lot of pork. Fact check me, but i think this budget's earmark amounts are around the amount of 1994's numbers. Earmarks have gotten a bad name over the last couple of years, but 90% of them are for good uses. Imagine how ineffective government would be if each congressman had to submit a separate bill to get 500,000 in improvements for their city parks system or funding to pave a new county road? Some might say, "screw the parks, save all the money to fix the economy". But then they would be the first to complain when parks had to close because they are unsafe and their is an increase in crime because kids have nothing to do in the summer (no city pools, no basketball courts, etc). I agree that the way earmarks are submitted shoudl be changed, but i dont think the president should delay submitting a bill until reforming the system. Also keep in mind that earmarks consist of about 2% of the budget, cutting bad earmarks would cut about two tenths of a percent from the budget. .2% is still a start.

CEOS:
I agree with you, that some of these guys have criminal mindsets, but their actions are often not criminal. They are just finding ways to work the system. Its sad when they take our money and spend it on trivial things though. I think we have a right to discourage discresionary/frivilous (sp) spending with our money. The tax proposal was clumbsy, but effective patch-up job. The real solution is to have it laid out in the contract what the money cannot be used for. The Bush and Obama admin dropped the ball on this one.

THE SKY IS FALLING:
There is a whisper going around that the economy seems to have bottomed out. If this is the case, the correct statement would be "the sky has already fallen, but will be slowly rising over the next 18-24months".
New home sales are higher than expected and BoFA and Citi say they were more profitable than expected in Jan and Feb. Its too early to declare that we're back on track, but its encouraging.
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      03-25-2009, 01:01 PM   #10
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I'm very much in favor of hope, but there has to be logic too. That's the thing that's always been missing with the Obama supporters. I've yet to find who can tell me how, when we have an economic crisis created by too much spending and debt, the answer to it is to bring spending and debt to significantly higher levels. Hope is tremendously important, indispensible even, but it has to be based in logic. It can't be based on something that you know deep down is false.

The other thing I'm afraid of? Everything that's happening now only allows the gov't to gain our consent to push their agendas way further than they could have if things were all good.

A 90% tax on executive bonuses?? No freaking way!!!!

A 90% tax on executive bonuses during a bad economy? Yes way tax those rich bastards, make them poor like us!!!!

Print trillions of dollars in debt money to ensure our slavery to the banks forever? What are you crazy? Why would we ever agree to that?

Print trillions of dollars in debt money to "bail out companies that are too big to fail"?? By George yes, save us, save us at any cost!!!

The original Bush led bailout was bad enough. We're preparing to bankrupt the country.
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      03-25-2009, 01:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
The problem is that banks weren't/aren't lending. period. no amount of thriftiness is going to resolve that. It was important that the government take some of those assets and began to provide growth in some industries until the private sector begins to spend again.
I will respond to this one and will to the others maybe later, but I have to run my business so I can pay for everyones mortgage.

Both my wife and I are in the real estate title insurance business and the root cause of 75%ish of this whole crisis issue was bad lending practices to begin with.

First off let me say there certainly was blame on both the lending side and the consumer (borrowers) side. BUT, ultimately the borrowers signed on the dotted line for loans they had no business getting.

For example we saw loans close with 125% financing on homes, we saw 0% down on homes (non-VA), we saw 1st, 2nd and even 3rd mortages on purchases all with upscaling interest rates, ARMS's with ridiculous caps, Special Service Area future payment amounts not calculated into the borrowers ability to pay because it "wasn't due yet" and the list goes on and on.

So....when ANYTHING went wrong in these peoples life, they were financially f'd up, there was NO room for error. And I realize the lenders may have told them (convinced?!?) they could afford these debt ratios, it's on THE PEOPLE to realize they were skating on thin and melting ice the day they executed their loan documents!

Same thing happened with car loans too, debt ratio scenarios wereby the people had no business getting the cars they did. I saw this through people I know, not through direct business means.

So what's the answer now? For the Libs it's more bad lending and bailouts, back to square one, but this time with the rest of us as co-signors, bad f-g idea IMO.

It's going to hurt, but the market needs to sort this out. It already is to a degree as seen in the news yesterday and today. Home resales are up because people are seeing the bargains that can be had out there.

Back to work....
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      03-25-2009, 02:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
I'm very much in favor of hope, but there has to be logic too. That's the thing that's always been missing with the Obama supporters. I've yet to find who can tell me how, when we have an economic crisis created by too much spending and debt, the answer to it is to bring spending and debt to significantly higher levels. Hope is tremendously important, indispensible even, but it has to be based in logic. It can't be based on something that you know deep down is false.
Sure, lets have an exercise in logic: I think thats the thing that has really been missing from the debate. There have been alot of people who are reactionary and hear the words spending and freak out. Now keep in mind that these are usually the same people who cheered when we went to war in Iraq for a useless cause that will end up costing us Trillions in hard money and trillions more in missed opportunities and misdirection. These are also the people who cheered the tax cuts (which costs trillions) at the same time we were spending the trillions to fight the war. Where was the outrage then? Why were you not pissed when we were spending trillions for nothing?

Logic would tell me that those people who are voicing their distaste for the governments spending programs are fundamentally opposed to spending regardless of the president. Its also tells me that they would be even more upset about the money that was spent doing nothing in Iraq.

Now with respect to the economy and how we got into this mess. I would agree that debt got us into this mess, but the debt wasn't the governments. The debt was consumer debt in the form of mortgages. The economy began to tank when the housing market collapsed. It collapsed because banks were greedy and over extended themselves in order to make loans. Once the banks realized this, they stopped making loans and consumers and businesses were left out to dry. The banks have other ways they can make money, so they can sit on the sideline until the economy improves. But it will never improve until someone begins making loans again. No bank wanted to be the first to do this and assume further risks, so the credit markets dried.

Companies, especially those with their hands in construction have been hit the hardest. They can't sell their inventory and new ventures are non existent or impossible because they dont have the capital to do the job. And those who have the money are afraid they won't have buyers.

So everyone sits and looks at the other to make a move, and nobody wants to make a move for fear of losing more money...
Do you suggest we just wait it out? Do you HOPE the companies decide to start spending money again? Thats not goign to happen. Investors/stockholders are going to take their money and run. Without ample funding, most companies would be forced to close. With an uptick of closures, there's no way banks would begin lending.

So, while i'm not excited about the fact that we are spending to try to get out of the hole, i understand that its a necessary evil. Inaction would be much more expensive than what we are doing right now. Seriously, if we dont succeed now, we could be in a depression or deep ression for 10 years anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
The other thing I'm afraid of? Everything that's happening now only allows the gov't to gain our consent to push their agendas way further than they could have if things were all good.
A 90% tax on executive bonuses?? No freaking way!!!!
A 90% tax on executive bonuses during a bad economy? Yes way tax those rich bastards, make them poor like us!!!!
Print trillions of dollars in debt money to ensure our slavery to the banks forever? What are you crazy? Why would we ever agree to that?
Print trillions of dollars in debt money to "bail out companies that are too big to fail"?? By George yes, save us, save us at any cost!!!
I dont have a problem taxing bonuses at 90% for those who ask for a bailout. Companies in bad enough shape to need a bailout should require this type of oversight. This will make executives think really hard before taking taxpayer bailout money. What is your biggest hangup?
The treasury prints money all the time. This is no different. This is what happens when money is not backed on a standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
The original Bush led bailout was bad enough. We're preparing to bankrupt the country.
What happens if we do nothing.

Lastly, do you have an alternative other "than not spend as much money"? And do you know the consequences of your alternative (if you have one)
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      03-25-2009, 02:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135i View Post
I will respond to this one and will to the others maybe later, but I have to run my business so I can pay for everyones mortgage.

Both my wife and I are in the real estate title insurance business and the root cause of 75%ish of this whole crisis issue was bad lending practices to begin with.

First off let me say there certainly was blame on both the lending side and the consumer (borrowers) side. BUT, ultimately the borrowers signed on the dotted line for loans they had no business getting.

For example we saw loans close with 125% financing on homes, we saw 0% down on homes (non-VA), we saw 1st, 2nd and even 3rd mortages on purchases all with upscaling interest rates, ARMS's with ridiculous caps, Special Service Area future payment amounts not calculated into the borrowers ability to pay because it "wasn't due yet" and the list goes on and on.

So....when ANYTHING went wrong in these peoples life, they were financially f'd up, there was NO room for error. And I realize the lenders may have told them (convinced?!?) they could afford these debt ratios, it's on THE PEOPLE to realize they were skating on thin and melting ice the day they executed their loan documents!

Same thing happened with car loans too, debt ratio scenarios wereby the people had no business getting the cars they did. I saw this through people I know, not through direct business means.

So what's the answer now? For the Libs it's more bad lending and bailouts, back to square one, but this time with the rest of us as co-signors, bad f-g idea IMO.

It's going to hurt, but the market needs to sort this out. It already is to a degree as seen in the news yesterday and today. Home resales are up because people are seeing the bargains that can be had out there.

Back to work....

I agree with 99% of what you said above. The only thing i didn't agree with is your assertion that the market would take care of itself. Most economists believed that we were heading for a depression. Now it looks like that may be averted.

If we wait until everything sorts itself out, we could have spun into a depression that would have cost much more than a couple of trillions of dollars. Heck, the stock market lost ~775 billion in one day back in December (possibly November). How costly do you think a depression would be?
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      03-25-2009, 10:21 PM   #14
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I wonder if the sky is soft

I hear the excuses about taking ten years to achieve results with new oil wells, but people miss the whole point about drilling here now.

When oil prices went up, I saw drilling come to life here in Texas. And when prices dropped, I saw wells abandoned in mid stroke. Why did they stop drilling? The answer is simple - it's not worth the cost of drilling to bring in a small well. That is the case for many of the existing leases - not worth the cost. My proposal is this: do whatever it takes to free us from import oil. This means that oil prices for us will go up. That's right, I said up. We are in an energy crunch in this country and we need to get out even when costs go up. If you fly from DFW to Phoenix you will see thousands of square miles of windmills. Those windmills are there because of massive government incentives. If we have to put more incentives in place for more oil wells, then do it. Once we are free from import oil, other countries will not have their oil prices forced up because of the USA's heavy use. When the rest of the world does better, we do better. Go buy yourself a candy bar - guess what - the price of sugar in that product is jacked up by our government. We do not pay world market price for sugar and we don't have to pay world market price for oil. If we were allowed to buy low cost world market sugar, our sugar companies would go in the tank. The next thing to happen would be higher sugar prices to the rest of the world because of our high sugar usage. Paying higher prices for American oil means we stop shipping boat loads of money to the middle east. Sugar or oil, the US government can control this. Jimmy Carter created the Department of Energy to do this very thing (to free us from import oil). Twenty years of republican presidents and twelve years of democratic presidents have yielded zip. Why? Because it's cheaper to buy oil than to drill. And if we follow that logic of always taking the cheaper way, we will buy oil instead building windmills.

I am not against earmarks but it makes my blood boil to see these crazy highways and bridges to nowhere. I think our President should be outraged with pork spending just as he is about the bonuses. He can put his foot down and "call out" the congressmen who slip these items in. Those bonuses don't come close to matching the waste that our own congress does.

I am not against prices going up, but I am livid about the waste created by the crooks in Washington. I've seen the hearings where Barney Frank and Maxine Waters were incensed about the issues bought up about Fanny May and Freddie Mac years ago. They insisted that it was the auditor that was the problem. They sat there sucking the blood out of the American taxpayer while riding on their self righteous high horses. You know who I blame for that - George Bush - because he didn't "call them out!" The buck stops in the oval office. The republicans are delighted to point out that it was the bungling of Clinton that started the irresponsible actions of Fanny May and Freddie Mac back in the 90's and it was the Bush administration that tried to appeal to congress to avoid this meltdown. I say: then Bush didn't try hard enough! He should have been on TV every night if he had to. I don't accept the "blame game."

If Obama wants to lead, then lead. Take on the crooks in the government and in corporate America. If he would do just two things: stop import oil and fight like hell against government waste, I would be in his corner. I fail to understand why we balk at stopping import oil. I am not good at accepting excuses and I don't think the American taxpayer should be either.

And furthermore, I'm sure I saw a piece of sky go by my window.

My ever-so-humble-but-accurate opinion is my own.
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      03-26-2009, 12:50 AM   #15
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The Brits also think the sky is falling

Holy crap, the UK is ahead of the USA. Yep, they can tell that the sky is falling.



This is serious and our Washington nonsense needs to stop now. Our politicians need to set aside their differences and focus on helping the USA and I don't mean continuing with special agendas that every little special interest group wants in their world.

Obama's own budget director called this "unsustainable."

Call me negative, but I know what sky looks like.

My ever-so-humble-but-accurate opinion is my own.
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      03-26-2009, 07:18 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purespeed View Post
I hear the excuses about taking ten years to achieve results with new oil wells, but people miss the whole point about drilling here now.

When oil prices went up, I saw drilling come to life here in Texas. And when prices dropped, I saw wells abandoned in mid stroke. Why did they stop drilling? The answer is simple - it's not worth the cost of drilling to bring in a small well. That is the case for many of the existing leases - not worth the cost. My proposal is this: do whatever it takes to free us from import oil. This means that oil prices for us will go up. That's right, I said up. We are in an energy crunch in this country and we need to get out even when costs go up. If you fly from DFW to Phoenix you will see thousands of square miles of windmills. Those windmills are there because of massive government incentives. If we have to put more incentives in place for more oil wells, then do it. Once we are free from import oil, other countries will not have their oil prices forced up because of the USA's heavy use. When the rest of the world does better, we do better. Go buy yourself a candy bar - guess what - the price of sugar in that product is jacked up by our government. We do not pay world market price for sugar and we don't have to pay world market price for oil. If we were allowed to buy low cost world market sugar, our sugar companies would go in the tank. The next thing to happen would be higher sugar prices to the rest of the world because of our high sugar usage. Paying higher prices for American oil means we stop shipping boat loads of money to the middle east. Sugar or oil, the US government can control this. Jimmy Carter created the Department of Energy to do this very thing (to free us from import oil). Twenty years of republican presidents and twelve years of democratic presidents have yielded zip. Why? Because it's cheaper to buy oil than to drill. And if we follow that logic of always taking the cheaper way, we will buy oil instead building windmills.

I am not against earmarks but it makes my blood boil to see these crazy highways and bridges to nowhere. I think our President should be outraged with pork spending just as he is about the bonuses. He can put his foot down and "call out" the congressmen who slip these items in. Those bonuses don't come close to matching the waste that our own congress does.

I am not against prices going up, but I am livid about the waste created by the crooks in Washington. I've seen the hearings where Barney Frank and Maxine Waters were incensed about the issues bought up about Fanny May and Freddie Mac years ago. They insisted that it was the auditor that was the problem. They sat there sucking the blood out of the American taxpayer while riding on their self righteous high horses. You know who I blame for that - George Bush - because he didn't "call them out!" The buck stops in the oval office. The republicans are delighted to point out that it was the bungling of Clinton that started the irresponsible actions of Fanny May and Freddie Mac back in the 90's and it was the Bush administration that tried to appeal to congress to avoid this meltdown. I say: then Bush didn't try hard enough! He should have been on TV every night if he had to. I don't accept the "blame game."

If Obama wants to lead, then lead. Take on the crooks in the government and in corporate America. If he would do just two things: stop import oil and fight like hell against government waste, I would be in his corner. I fail to understand why we balk at stopping import oil. I am not good at accepting excuses and I don't think the American taxpayer should be either.

And furthermore, I'm sure I saw a piece of sky go by my window.

My ever-so-humble-but-accurate opinion is my own.

I agree with you on a lot of points, expecially about stopping the import oil. But you can't just stop import oil without first building an infrastructure to have alternative energy (and thats what he's doing). But its something that will take some time to do. And drilling doesn't do anything but contribute to the global pool of oil.

We CANT stop importing oil and just keep our own oil, thats not the way the system works. Most of the oil we pump will be purchased by China. Thats why drilling is not the solution to the problem. Alternative energy is the way to go for the future, because the jobs will be for Americans and the energy will be used by Americans, not China.

I hold Obama to a much higher standard than that of Bush. I hope he takes some time to blast wasteful spending in time. But I also realize that he couldn't delay the budget in order to take the time to fight 20 years of bad culture. They obviously axed some of the low hanging fruit (as the amount of pork was lower than recent budgets) and presented it.
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      03-26-2009, 07:30 AM   #17
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Anyway, this topic has been fun, but i've actually got to get some work done, so i will not be participating in it (at least until the weekend). Political discussions are big productivity killers.
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      03-26-2009, 07:47 AM   #18
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Political discussions are big productivity killers.
Think about that statement...talk about a trueism!!!

Back to work!
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      03-26-2009, 07:48 AM   #19
bolinp78
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Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
I agree with you on a lot of points, expecially about stopping the import oil. But you can't just stop import oil without first building an infrastructure to have alternative energy (and thats what he's doing). But its something that will take some time to do. And drilling doesn't do anything but contribute to the global pool of oil.

We CANT stop importing oil and just keep our own oil, thats not the way the system works. Most of the oil we pump will be purchased by China. Thats why drilling is not the solution to the problem. Alternative energy is the way to go for the future, because the jobs will be for Americans and the energy will be used by Americans, not China.

I hold Obama to a much higher standard than that of Bush. I hope he takes some time to blast wasteful spending in time. But I also realize that he couldn't delay the budget in order to take the time to fight 20 years of bad culture. They obviously axed some of the low hanging fruit (as the amount of pork was lower than recent budgets) and presented it.
I am in the oil and gas industry. I agree with you here; The problem is that Obama is seeking to destroy the oil and gas industry altogether, If you haven't noticed his recently proposed bills affecting the business. If these get passed with any substance, the industry will go down. He wants to immediately shove out the industry and all the jobs that go with it to make way for his green energy and socialist agenda. If we do not do something, he WILL sink the oil and gas industry. Then, while he is pushing his green agenda "that takes time", the oil and gas industry is on it's back. Sounds like a great idea. Your post is good, but the way in which it is carried out is key. At this moment, everyone in my industry is scared shitless.
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      03-26-2009, 03:10 PM   #20
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Oh yes we can

You wrote:
"We CANT stop importing oil and just keep our own oil, thats not the way the system works. Most of the oil we pump will be purchased by China. Thats why drilling is not the solution to the problem. Alternative energy is the way to go for the future, because the jobs will be for Americans and the energy will be used by Americans, not China."

Yes we can. I don't know the exact amount we import (I think around 20%) but that is only because we have to based on financial reasons. This is where our government can play a critical role. It is a "decision" to import oil or not if we drill enough to satisfy our own needs. There is no law, no power, no country that can force us to release our oil outside of the USA if we make the "decision" not to. That is a fact.

I am an engineer and I am very familiar with the green work in this country and I promise you that while green is the way to go and should be done, it will NOT work fast enough nor deliver enough for our needs. Oregon is trying to install windmills right now where they have 25%+ unemployment, but they are being held up by an environmental group in court. The people suing do not live in the counties where the windmills were going to be built. Every wack job in the state is coming out.

When oil prices went up, the idea of corn alcohol became the rage. Then the aftermath occurred.......we were accused of being food terrorists (in the UN) because we were fueling our SUV's instead feeding other countries. Then oil prices dropped. Again this is where our government can play a critical role. Now alcohol costs too much. If we need to add alcohol to every gallon of gas to stop import oil, then do it. Yes gasoline will cost much more at the pump, but it won't be because OPEC has made the "decision", it will be our "decision".

Our government must make the "decision" to stop import oil by any reasonable means possible. Sitting around waiting for the magic carpet with the magic technology will not happen. Saying we CAN'T is a cop out. If there were a world war, a world wide disaster, a comet speeding toward earth, we could make lots of "decisions" really fast.

And by "decisions" I don't mean changing from a teleprompter to a big screen tv because Obama got his feelings hurt by the newscasters. I don't care if he reads notes off his shirt sleeves ----just start making the right "decisions" now.

Jimmy Carter set up the Department of energy. Regan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr did NOTHING to stop the import oil! Why, because it's cheaper.

I said it everyway I know how. I don't accept the existing corruption and failures in Washington and I don't think the American tax payer should either.

I suspect many people who voted for Obama will support his "decisions" anyway (as was done with GW.) This a clear "decision" to chose party over country. I have voted various tickets since I was 21 with no tie to any party and I have no respect for the undying loyalist.

I have to go now....the sky is starting to pile up in my back yard.

My ever-so-humble-but-accurate opinion is my own.
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      03-26-2009, 04:42 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purespeed View Post
You wrote:
"We CANT stop importing oil and just keep our own oil, thats not the way the system works. Most of the oil we pump will be purchased by China. Thats why drilling is not the solution to the problem. Alternative energy is the way to go for the future, because the jobs will be for Americans and the energy will be used by Americans, not China."

Yes we can. I don't know the exact amount we import (I think around 20%) but that is only because we have to based on financial reasons. This is where our government can play a critical role. It is a "decision" to import oil or not if we drill enough to satisfy our own needs. There is no law, no power, no country that can force us to release our oil outside of the USA if we make the "decision" not to. That is a fact.

I am an engineer and I am very familiar with the green work in this country and I promise you that while green is the way to go and should be done, it will NOT work fast enough nor deliver enough for our needs. Oregon is trying to install windmills right now where they have 25%+ unemployment, but they are being held up by an environmental group in court. The people suing do not live in the counties where the windmills were going to be built. Every wack job in the state is coming out.

When oil prices went up, the idea of corn alcohol became the rage. Then the aftermath occurred.......we were accused of being food terrorists (in the UN) because we were fueling our SUV's instead feeding other countries. Then oil prices dropped. Again this is where our government can play a critical role. Now alcohol costs too much. If we need to add alcohol to every gallon of gas to stop import oil, then do it. Yes gasoline will cost much more at the pump, but it won't be because OPEC has made the "decision", it will be our "decision".

Our government must make the "decision" to stop import oil by any reasonable means possible. Sitting around waiting for the magic carpet with the magic technology will not happen. Saying we CAN'T is a cop out. If there were a world war, a world wide disaster, a comet speeding toward earth, we could make lots of "decisions" really fast.

And by "decisions" I don't mean changing from a teleprompter to a big screen tv because Obama got his feelings hurt by the newscasters. I don't care if he reads notes off his shirt sleeves ----just start making the right "decisions" now.

Jimmy Carter set up the Department of energy. Regan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr did NOTHING to stop the import oil! Why, because it's cheaper.

I said it everyway I know how. I don't accept the existing corruption and failures in Washington and I don't think the American tax payer should either.

I suspect many people who voted for Obama will support his "decisions" anyway (as was done with GW.) This a clear "decision" to chose party over country. I have voted various tickets since I was 21 with no tie to any party and I have no respect for the undying loyalist.

I have to go now....the sky is starting to pile up in my back yard.

My ever-so-humble-but-accurate opinion is my own.

So, I vowed not to return for the sake of productivity for the next couple of days, but I had no idea that i'd be called out (in bold type even), so i guess i have to make a quick return.

Are you proposing that the government tell businesses that they can only sell their products to American companies or the government? Because that's what you seem to be proposing. The oil pulled from the ground is a "product" of ExxonMobil, Chevron, etc. If these companies have the options of selling their products to the highest bidder, which they should be able to, they will do so. They are not going to get patriotic and declare that making money for their shareholders is not important. they are not going to concede trillions of dollars because they want to do the right thing for the American economy.

But lets pretend that we did force our oil companies not to sell THEIR oil to other counties. What do you think the response from the rest of the world would be? I'll tell you, the OPEC nations would be threatened and would limit production. Being that we can't and will probably never have the ability to sustain our own appetite for oil, there would be a huge gap between what we could produce and what we need. We would then be an much worse situation that we are in now.

As far as you suggestion about adding corn alcohol to gas; i dont agree. How much oil would have to be added to each gallon of gas to make a difference in the amount of oil we have to import? We currently import roughly 60% of our oil, so we would have to produce as much corn alcohol as we are currently producing oil (this would take decades to do). Once that is done, every engine in existence would have to be able to run the new petro corn mixture. Components in cars often have problems running 15% ethanol mixtures, so imagine the difficulty in running a 50% ethanol mix.

Next, we dont have the capacity to produce corn at that level, and we certainly dont have the ability to "refine" it at level. I imagine it would take the same amount of time to build up the infrastructure to do this as it would to offset a decent amount of energy in a green economy. Not to mention that its expensive, about 25% less effecient than gas, and the process to produce it is more toxic. Also, to do this, we would need to have enough oil to sustain our needs in the first place. We dont have this ability, and will not until technology or the high oil prices makes shale harvesting more feasible.

While i applaud your can do attitude, i view the process to get us off foreign oil as just that, a process. Its a big ship and will take a while to turn around. But i believe that the process must begin now. This is something i think we can both agree on.
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      03-26-2009, 04:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolinp78 View Post
I am in the oil and gas industry. I agree with you here; The problem is that Obama is seeking to destroy the oil and gas industry altogether, If you haven't noticed his recently proposed bills affecting the business. If these get passed with any substance, the industry will go down. He wants to immediately shove out the industry and all the jobs that go with it to make way for his green energy and socialist agenda. If we do not do something, he WILL sink the oil and gas industry. Then, while he is pushing his green agenda "that takes time", the oil and gas industry is on it's back. Sounds like a great idea. Your post is good, but the way in which it is carried out is key. At this moment, everyone in my industry is scared shitless.
Specifically what proposals are about to bring the oil and gas business to its knees? It wont happen, it CANT happen. Not within the next 20 years at least. We need you fuckers too much
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