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      03-25-2009, 12:31 AM   #23
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WOW!
great information
so assuming that the wheel bearing design has advanced from the e46 m3, the e92 m3 should run with spacers without a problem?
do we have anyone here with an engineering background that may want to contribute?
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      03-25-2009, 01:23 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Windy View Post
tom, i think what swamp is saying (and I agree with him) is, where do you get 20mm from? how do you know that this is the threshold? is there actual evidence that shows that certain added stresses exist beyond 20mm?

the point is that a lot of people (including myself) will say that you are good with less than 10mm, or 15mm, or even 20mm, but that is not from actual experience or evidence, rather from common practice. 20mm could be a totally arbitrary number for all we know...it would be nice to have some real data, but i think there are simply too many variables.
Thanks, I thought I was being clear but that made it 100% clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
This is why extended lugs are necessary. A minimum of 6-7 turns is a good indicator of a firmly seated fastener.
Not quite. A much prefered and more generic engineering rule of thumb is 1 diameter of the fastener length to be into the base material. For a 12 x 1.5 mm fastener this means 8 turns (12/1.5 = 8). I would not go with as little as 6 turns on this thread size. That is only 6x1.5mm = 9mm, or 75% of the diameter engaged.

As a side note the when under tension loads (NOT side loads) the first 2-3 threads of almost any fastener and the material it mates with will hold the vast majority of the load. This is due to the elongation of the entire fastener. The threads past those simply become a loose fit. However, when you want to consider side loads, resistance to stripping and other load conditions the rule of thumb above comes into play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Spacers are even a common mod of Ferraris that see track duty to increase track width.
Good point. Further evidence that in general spacers are fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
On another note, H&R offers a particularly wide spacer (30mm) for X5s which allow the lugs to thread into the spacer itself (DRA Series), and no reports of damage since the models were introduced back in 2000, clocking quite a bit of miles to date.
Now X5s don't typically generate M3 type cornering loads, but at grip limit the loads will be large. This also reinforces my point that 20 mm is a totally aribitrary upper limit.
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      03-25-2009, 10:01 AM   #25
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I spent half of year to research spacer matter.
First I talked to Honda Engineer of Car Design Team (my best friend).
I went to talked to mechanic. Finally I looked at dealer's chief mechanic's car, a few of them own M3.
Result is as following;
Spacer place in between wheel and hub, there is alway space in between; whether it is small or large. While you drove throught curd and bump, there is a challenge to spacer.
For same material, material strength is depend on its thickness.
For thin spacer such as 1mm, you can bend it by hand
For thicker spacer make by very strong material that can hold hits while you drove throught curd and bump. Problem is force on wheel bearing, bolt length in hub is unchange, increase of spacer, increase of bolt total length.
(Spacer thickness/original bolt length)*100 relate to percentage of increase force to wheel bearing.
Every mechanical part will break, car engineer can only design part to fullfil warrantly period with given data. Changing bolt length change all geometry data.
If spacer is ok, car manufacturer will be the first one make it and put their logo on it. They can also make different thickness of hub and put their logo on and call it performance part. If they don't know how to make it, they can purchase from after market and print their logo on it.
Laterly wheel design changes to deep rim because of brake caliper. If adding spacer is a solution, they make wheel with thick spacer and long bolt. Manufacture make wheel with deep rim, such as BMW, 09 Subara STI. Changes a structural design cost a huge investment.
When I talk to senior mechanic, they said "I am happy with my OEM rim". Why???
One of mechanic told me, "Adding a spacer and long bolt, drive to Dealer and ask for wheel bearing warrantly, you will have an answer."

Finally I will change my rim only with original offset.

There RIM manufacturer do custom offset such as http://neezinternational.com/structure.html
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      03-25-2009, 12:03 PM   #26
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I'm running a 20mm upfront and I wouldn't go more then that..
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      03-25-2009, 03:06 PM   #27
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My only concern with spacers is when pushing the wheels out further toward the wheel arch, be it directly in line or even perhaps slightly protruding, that you may get tire rubbing. This is actually a question, not a statement! I have 19 inch Alloy Technic B9 wheels and the car is lowered on H&R's, by roughly an inch. I want to install spacers but obviously I want to avoid any body damage! Also, is it better to go with the same length at each corner ... say 15mm all round .... or is it better to go with something like I have seen mentioned before .... 15mm front / 10mm rear? I don't really understand the latter concept but that seems to be a popular choice.

Any answers? Thanks!
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      03-25-2009, 04:31 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbracer View Post
My only concern with spacers is when pushing the wheels out further toward the wheel arch, be it directly in line or even perhaps slightly protruding, that you may get tire rubbing. This is actually a question, not a statement! I have 19 inch Alloy Technic B9 wheels and the car is lowered on H&R's, by roughly an inch. I want to install spacers but obviously I want to avoid any body damage! Also, is it better to go with the same length at each corner ... say 15mm all round .... or is it better to go with something like I have seen mentioned before .... 15mm front / 10mm rear? I don't really understand the latter concept but that seems to be a popular choice.

Any answers? Thanks!
it depends on your original offsets man
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      03-25-2009, 04:32 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tightie View Post
I'm running a 20mm upfront and I wouldn't go more then that..
with the klassens?
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      03-25-2009, 04:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbracer View Post
My only concern with spacers is when pushing the wheels out further toward the wheel arch, be it directly in line or even perhaps slightly protruding, that you may get tire rubbing. This is actually a question, not a statement! I have 19 inch Alloy Technic B9 wheels and the car is lowered on H&R's, by roughly an inch. I want to install spacers but obviously I want to avoid any body damage! Also, is it better to go with the same length at each corner ... say 15mm all round .... or is it better to go with something like I have seen mentioned before .... 15mm front / 10mm rear? I don't really understand the latter concept but that seems to be a popular choice.

Any answers? Thanks!
Factory clearances are very generous. Mostly (even with a sports car) the purpose is to account for snow, mud, debris etc. You can push an OEM M3 wheel 15-20 mm to the outside and still have plenty of clearance. I think I have heard that 15 rear and 20 front on the M3 still produces NO rubbing, lowered or not. That may be about the max. Keep in mind if it will rub lowered it will rub unlowered, just when you hit a bump!
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      03-25-2009, 04:35 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbracer View Post
My only concern with spacers is when pushing the wheels out further toward the wheel arch, be it directly in line or even perhaps slightly protruding, that you may get tire rubbing. This is actually a question, not a statement! I have 19 inch Alloy Technic B9 wheels and the car is lowered on H&R's, by roughly an inch. I want to install spacers but obviously I want to avoid any body damage! Also, is it better to go with the same length at each corner ... say 15mm all round .... or is it better to go with something like I have seen mentioned before .... 15mm front / 10mm rear? I don't really understand the latter concept but that seems to be a popular choice.

Any answers? Thanks!
I prefer 20mm front and 15mm rear btw
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      03-25-2009, 04:35 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Factory clearances are very generous. Mostly (even with a sports car) the purpose is to account for snow, mud, debris etc. You can push an OEM M3 wheel 15-20 mm to the outside and still have plenty of clearance. I think I have heard that 15 rear and 20 front on the M3 still produces NO rubbing, lowered or not. That may be about the max. Keep in mind if it will rub lowered it will rub unlowered, just when you hit a bump!
I need to fricking read my own thread
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      03-25-2009, 04:53 PM   #33
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For being an "expert" you have many things completely incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanta View Post
For same material, material strength is depend on its thickness. For thin spacer such as 1mm, you can bend it by hand
For thicker spacer make by very strong material that can hold hits while you drove throught curd and bump.
Not correct, the bending stiffness and bending yield load of a thin spacer has little to do with its real world operating load with is almost entirely compressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanta View Post
(Spacer thickness/original bolt length)*100 relate to percentage of increase force to wheel bearing.
Also incorrect. The increase in torque to the spacer which results in an increase to compressive load on the spacer will increase by the ratio of the distance from wheel centerline to wheel bearing with spacer / the same distance without spacer. This is for a non cornering load condition. Everything changes in a corner when the wheel load point moves across the tire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanta View Post
Every mechanical part will break, car engineer can only design part to fullfil warrantly period with given data.
Nonsense. Many parts that experience low loads or load below their fatigue limit essentially have an infinite lifetime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanta View Post
If spacer is ok, car manufacturer will be the first one make it and put their logo on it. They can also make different thickness of hub and put their logo on and call it performance part. If they don't know how to make it, they can purchase from after market and print their logo on it.
Disagree here as well. OEM has many conflicting goals and wheel clearance it something they do not always look at in terms of optimizing appearance. Hence the existence of aftermarket spacers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanta View Post
"Adding a spacer and long bolt, drive to Dealer and ask for wheel bearing warrantly, you will have an answer."
Although technically correct, this just does not happen in practice. If it did you could still simply pay for a wheel bearing which is not so expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanta View Post
Finally I will change my rim only with original offset.

There RIM manufacturer do custom offset such as http://neezinternational.com/structure.html
Custom offset that is non factory in dimension but built into the wheel will place the same increased loads into the wheel bearing. It is the distance that matters not whether or not there is a spacer.
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      03-25-2009, 05:05 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Factory clearances are very generous. Mostly (even with a sports car) the purpose is to account for snow, mud, debris etc. You can push an OEM M3 wheel 15-20 mm to the outside and still have plenty of clearance. I think I have heard that 15 rear and 20 front on the M3 still produces NO rubbing, lowered or not. That may be about the max. Keep in mind if it will rub lowered it will rub unlowered, just when you hit a bump!
Yes, I understand that the factory clearance is generous, but that's within the wheel arch area. If you stretch out your wheels to align with the outer body shell it's not quite so generous anymore! Someone did say that when a wheel is forced upwards the movement is not straight up vertical but cambers inward, so that would probably avoid contact.

I still don't quite get why the larger increase in the front, over that in the rear, appears to be preferred? I know what increasing track width does, apart from the aesthetics, but why not increase the rear the same as the front?
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      03-25-2009, 05:08 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbracer View Post
Yes, I understand that the factory clearance is generous, but that's within the wheel arch area. If you stretch out your wheels to align with the outer body shell it's not quite so generous anymore! Someone did say that when a wheel is forced upwards the movement is not straight up vertical but cambers inward, so that would probably avoid contact.

I still don't quite get why the larger increase in the front, over that in the rear, appears to be preferred? I know what increasing track width does, apart from the aesthetics, but why not increase the rear the same as the front?
the negative of increasing the front more than the rear is a larger turning radius
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      03-25-2009, 05:10 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
For being an "expert" you have many things completely incorrect.



Not correct, the bending stiffness and bending yield load of a thin spacer has little to do with its real world operating load with is almost entirely compressive.



Also incorrect. The increase in torque to the spacer which results in an increase to compressive load on the spacer will increase by the ratio of the distance from wheel centerline to wheel bearing with spacer / the same distance without spacer. This is for a non cornering load condition. Everything changes in a corner when the wheel load point moves across the tire.



Nonsense. Many parts that experience low loads or load below their fatigue limit essentially have an infinite lifetime.



Disagree here as well. OEM has many conflicting goals and wheel clearance it something they do not always look at in terms of optimizing appearance. Hence the existence of aftermarket spacers.



Although technically correct, this just does not happen in practice. If it did you could still simply pay for a wheel bearing which is not so expensive.



Custom offset that is non factory in dimension but built into the wheel will place the same increased loads into the wheel bearing. It is the distance that matters not whether or not there is a spacer.
I am not being a expert, I am an enduser. I believe manufactorier is the real expert.
After add spacer and changing long bolt, drive down to dealership and ask for manufactorier warrantly. They will give you an good answer. Wheel bearing maybe not to expensive, but the topic is "Spacers + wheel bearing = ?"
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      03-25-2009, 05:11 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbracer View Post
Yes, I understand that the factory clearance is generous, but that's within the wheel arch area. If you stretch out your wheels to align with the outer body shell it's not quite so generous anymore! Someone did say that when a wheel is forced upwards the movement is not straight up vertical but cambers inward, so that would probably avoid contact.

I still don't quite get why the larger increase in the front, over that in the rear, appears to be preferred? I know what increasing track width does, apart from the aesthetics, but why not increase the rear the same as the front?
Wheels will move a bit in and up but it is much more straight than up.

The reason folks go with larger spacer front than rear is PURELY cosmetic. Most want the arched to appear nicely filled out from the top or rear and from the factory the front is tucked in more.
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      03-30-2009, 05:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLuVan View Post
with the klassens?
i ran 20mm on my stockies...

theyre for sale now.
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      03-31-2009, 01:33 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tightie View Post
i ran 20mm on my stockies...

theyre for sale now.
uh oh
you're going to make me even more jealous now.....
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      03-31-2009, 03:50 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLuVan View Post
do we have anyone here with an engineering background that may want to contribute?
What would you like to know exactly?

Most of what has been said is pretty accurate. Shank length is an important factor, along with the additional leverage produced by the increased track length per side from the OUTSIDE of the wheel hub. Running a wheel spacer is nearly the same as running a wider wheel, especially wheels with a deep dish. Deep dish wheels are substantially harder on wheel bearings than even a 20mm spacer would be.

If it makes anyone feel better, a mild spacer, such as 15mm, would not consitute enough leverage on the hub and bearing to cause premature failure. As it has been mentioned, the wheel bearing for high performance cars are designed to withstand a lot more than what a wheel spacer would do from a negative standpoint.
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      03-31-2009, 04:01 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
What would you like to know exactly?

Most of what has been said is pretty accurate. Shank length is an important factor, along with the additional leverage produced by the increased track length per side from the OUTSIDE of the wheel hub. Running a wheel spacer is nearly the same as running a wider wheel, especially wheels with a deep dish. Deep dish wheels are substantially harder on wheel bearings than even a 20mm spacer would be.

If it makes anyone feel better, a mild spacer, such as 15mm, would not consitute enough leverage on the hub and bearing to cause premature failure. As it has been mentioned, the wheel bearing for high performance cars are designed to withstand a lot more than what a wheel spacer would do from a negative standpoint.
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      03-31-2009, 11:54 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
What would you like to know exactly?

Most of what has been said is pretty accurate. Shank length is an important factor, along with the additional leverage produced by the increased track length per side from the OUTSIDE of the wheel hub. Running a wheel spacer is nearly the same as running a wider wheel, especially wheels with a deep dish. Deep dish wheels are substantially harder on wheel bearings than even a 20mm spacer would be.

If it makes anyone feel better, a mild spacer, such as 15mm, would not consitute enough leverage on the hub and bearing to cause premature failure. As it has been mentioned, the wheel bearing for high performance cars are designed to withstand a lot more than what a wheel spacer would do from a negative standpoint.
Very good points made in this post.
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      04-03-2009, 07:56 PM   #43
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I got my Spacer's from EAS, 15mm front and 10mm rear.
They are quality pieces and really add to the OEM wheels.
They truly help in making the car's stance look aggressive.
I like the OEM wheels alot and I don't think I am going to invest in aftermarket wheels.
My question-After adding the spacers-I noticed the car is handling a little differently in the turns. Would getting a alignment help in this case ?
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      04-03-2009, 08:36 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rav7ks View Post
I got my Spacer's from EAS, 15mm front and 10mm rear.
They are quality pieces and really add to the OEM wheels.
They truly help in making the car's stance look aggressive.
I like the OEM wheels alot and I don't think I am going to invest in aftermarket wheels.
My question-After adding the spacers-I noticed the car is handling a little differently in the turns. Would getting a alignment help in this case ?
how has the handling changed?
yeah the spacers from EAS look sick
and the oem 19's are amazing
I didn't like them at first...then I saw them in person and my jaw dropped
amazing...
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