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      03-08-2009, 11:01 PM   #1
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Obama to reverse Bush-era stem cell policy

WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama's announcement Monday that he is overturning his predecessor's policies toward embryonic stem cells also will include a broad declaration that science — not political ideology — would guide his administration.


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      03-09-2009, 12:32 AM   #2
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I don't think it was political ideology that drove Bush in this case, but religious beliefs. I'm sure there are plenty of Democrats out there that don't support stem cell research, just as there are plenty of Republicans that do. Real people that is, not politicians.

I personally am ambivalent about the issue. But you do have to ask yourself, at what point do you have to draw a line, when "science and not political ideology, will guide his administration"? There are moral and ethical issues to consider in all medical research. Just because it may be "good science" doesn't mean it is "good."

Lots of evil has been done in the name of science, most notably the Nazi medical experiments. I'm not saying that stem cell research is akin to the what the Nazi's did. However, some people in this country have a real problem with it from moral and religious grounds. Doesn't mean one side or the other is right, or wrong, but it is a touchy subject. Extracting stem cells from embryos kills the embryo. Since some (quite a few?) believe that life begins at conception, harvesting stem cells is the same as murder to them.

But what Obama really did is just lift the executive order ban on the research, not authorize it or fund it. He's leaving that for Congress, so they can take the heat. And, Congress has had a ban in place since 1996. The only thing that Obama's change has done is allow for some research on existing stem cell colonies (those arleady harvested), but it does not allow for more stem cells to be collected. The congressional ban is still in place. And last time I checked, Clinton was the President when Congress sent that legislation to him for his signature, not Bush....
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      03-09-2009, 07:15 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scollins View Post
I don't think it was political ideology that drove Bush in this case, but religious beliefs. I'm sure there are plenty of Democrats out there that don't support stem cell research, just as there are plenty of Republicans that do. Real people that is, not politicians.

I personally am ambivalent about the issue. But you do have to ask yourself, at what point do you have to draw a line, when "science and not political ideology, will guide his administration"? There are moral and ethical issues to consider in all medical research. Just because it may be "good science" doesn't mean it is "good."

Lots of evil has been done in the name of science, most notably the Nazi medical experiments. I'm not saying that stem cell research is akin to the what the Nazi's did. However, some people in this country have a real problem with it from moral and religious grounds. Doesn't mean one side or the other is right, or wrong, but it is a touchy subject. Extracting stem cells from embryos kills the embryo. Since some (quite a few?) believe that life begins at conception, harvesting stem cells is the same as murder to them.

But what Obama really did is just lift the executive order ban on the research, not authorize it or fund it. He's leaving that for Congress, so they can take the heat. And, Congress has had a ban in place since 1996. The only thing that Obama's change has done is allow for some research on existing stem cell colonies (those arleady harvested), but it does not allow for more stem cells to be collected. The congressional ban is still in place. And last time I checked, Clinton was the President when Congress sent that legislation to him for his signature, not Bush....
In short, he's bringing FREEDOMS back to this country, and telling religious FREAKS -- believe in what you want, just don't drag me and Americans into that crap...
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      03-09-2009, 08:46 AM   #4
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so he better tell this to Muslim freaks too not only christian.
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      03-09-2009, 11:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
In short, he's bringing FREEDOMS back to this country, and telling religious FREAKS -- believe in what you want, just don't drag me and Americans into that crap...
I see. So people who believe in religion, such as Catholics, are all freaks because they don't believe in abortion and that life begins at conception? I don't believe in religion myself, but I try to see things from points of view other than my own.

One person's abortion is another person's murder. Who has the greater right to "freedom"? The freedom of choice, or the freedom of life? When does one person's "freedom" become another's "tyranny"?

But I'm glad you are for more freedoms. Can I count on you to support my desire for more freedom by preventing the Obama administration from further eroding my 2nd Amendment rights to keep and bear arms? You know, something that is actually Constitutionally protected, as opposed to all the other "freedoms" we think we enjoy? Or is it only what you define as "approved freedoms" that matter, and the remaining 300 million people in this country can just deal with it?

Like you said, "believe what you want, just don't drag me and Americans into that crap...."
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      03-09-2009, 12:16 PM   #6
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Sums it up right here.
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      03-09-2009, 06:55 PM   #7
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Will some pro-lifers help me understand something....... I kill millions of babies every time I masturbate. I sometimes flush the critters down the toilet, knowing they will never find an egg in the sewer. Other times I jack off on a kleenex, knowing full well they are going to dry up and die. And other times I cum in places that i know there is no egg for my boys, holes that my gf allows me to play in.

Am I a murderer? Is my gf an accomplice to murder?
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      03-09-2009, 08:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scollins View Post
I see. So people who believe in religion, such as Catholics, are all freaks because they don't believe in abortion and that life begins at conception? I don't believe in religion myself, but I try to see things from points of view other than my own.

One person's abortion is another person's murder. Who has the greater right to "freedom"? The freedom of choice, or the freedom of life? When does one person's "freedom" become another's "tyranny"?

But I'm glad you are for more freedoms. Can I count on you to support my desire for more freedom by preventing the Obama administration from further eroding my 2nd Amendment rights to keep and bear arms? You know, something that is actually Constitutionally protected, as opposed to all the other "freedoms" we think we enjoy? Or is it only what you define as "approved freedoms" that matter, and the remaining 300 million people in this country can just deal with it?

Like you said, "believe what you want, just don't drag me and Americans into that crap...."
First of all, yes, stripping mothers of their CHOICE because of religious people thinking that way is freakish.

Second, no one is stripping away the second amendment rights from you. Sadly, because of the obuse of that amendment the murder rates and so on are terrible in this country...

If you're so concerned about "killing" a fetus or whatever it is, how come you're not concerned when we murder Iraqi, Serbian or other children???
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      03-09-2009, 08:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
First of all, yes, stripping mothers of their CHOICE because of religious people thinking that way is freakish.
Well, to those that believe that life begins at conception, doesn't that mean the mother's freedom of choice necessarily infringes the fetus's choice to live? Whose right is more important in that case? Freedom of choice or freedom to live? The Founding Fathers said, "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Both key concepts are there, "life" and "liberty." But when someone's "liberty" (pro-choice) means someone else is deprived of "life" (the aborted fetus), whose right is more important? There are so many arguments about when "life" begins, that this controversy will never, ever go away.


Quote:
Second, no one is stripping away the second amendment rights from you. Sadly, because of the obuse of that amendment the murder rates and so on are terrible in this country...
Really? Just about every gun law on the books right now is in direct contradiction to the phrase "shall not be infringed." AG Eric Holder has already stated the Obama Administration will pursue another "Assault Weapons Ban." "Assault Weapon" is a misnomer too by the way. How is that not infringing on the Second Amendment? It isn't about hunting.

Also, I'm not tracking your arguement here. Are you saying that because firearms are available is the reason that murder rates are high? That's like saying a penis is the cause of rape, a fork is the cause of obesity and a 335i is the cause of speeding tickets. Well, I'll give you that last one, it probably is!

Funny how the cities with the highest murder rates also have the tightest and most restrictive gun control measures.

But like the "pro-choice vs. pro-life" debate, it all hinges on different interpretations and points of view. Some believe the 2nd Amendment is about the National Guard, and a "collective" right, while others see it is an avenue of personal defense against enemies, foreign and domestic, through an individual right. Considering the wealth of writings about it from the time the document was written, I'd say it is pretty clearly an individual right. Those same "people" who are guaranteed individual rights in the 1st, 4th, 9th and 10th amendments.

Quote:
If you're so concerned about "killing" a fetus or whatever it is, how come you're not concerned when we murder Iraqi, Serbian or other children???
Where did I ever say that? I've never stated my position on the "pro-life/pro-choice" debate, either in this thread or on this forum. You must be assuming that since I'm a conservative, I must be a religious, pro-life Republican. That is not the case. And who the hell is murdering Iraqi, Serbian and other children? Let me guess, our military is full of nothing but "baby killers", right?

Like I said before, I try to understand the issues from different points of view. I may not AGREE with those points of view, but I try to see where people are coming from. If more people would try to do that.......
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      03-12-2009, 10:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoKids View Post
Will some pro-lifers help me understand something....... I kill millions of babies every time I masturbate. I sometimes flush the critters down the toilet, knowing they will never find an egg in the sewer. Other times I jack off on a kleenex, knowing full well they are going to dry up and die. And other times I cum in places that i know there is no egg for my boys, holes that my gf allows me to play in.

Am I a murderer? Is my gf an accomplice to murder?
No. Your entire post, albeit funny, is quite wrong and has nothing to do with the subject. Pro-lifers believe that life begins CONCEPTION (when the sperm cell and the egg combine to create a zygote), not when you rub one off in the bathroom. Masturbating is the same as scratching your skin; you are merely removing cells from your body. Of course, then again, the Christians look down upon masturbating too, but it’s not “murder” to them.

As far as this whole stem cell research is concerned, it’s eventually going to be a moot point. Scientists have already devised a way to create stem cells from ordinary skin cells (back in 2007 I believe). Even Bush praised this technology and supported it. Yes, further research is involved to make it a reliable source, but give it a few years and we’ll be creating new organs for the mass in no time.

In the mean time, I hope stem cell research can take off. I’m all about pro-choice and religious beliefs should not be imposed upon people. ESPECIALLY from the government.
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      03-12-2009, 01:27 PM   #11
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I think if one can prove an embryo meets the scientific criteria for life this argument would end.

However that cannot happen and thus would be am example of legislated religious morality.
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      03-12-2009, 06:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
I think if one can prove an embryo meets the scientific criteria for life this argument would end.

However that cannot happen and thus would be am example of legislated religious morality.
Is there a single scientific definition of life? If there is, how does an embryo not meet it?

In "The way of the cell: molecules, organisms, and the order of life," Dr. Franklin M. Harold says: “Living organisms are autopoietic systems: self-constructing, self-maintaining, energy transducing autocatalytic entities.”

Tibor Ganti in "The Principles of Life" puts it this way, "a living entity must be: inherently individual, have metabolism, inherently stable, have a subsystem carrying necessary information, control and regulate its own processes."

What definition do you use?
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