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      02-27-2009, 07:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !Xoible View Post
i think the Pcar driver is good and the other 2 suck (you for having all those problems and probably not choosing the right settings, why S5?), and the E63 for really sucking he should kill both of you easily
Uh, the E63 does not kill either easily, each car is very close to one another, a drivers race.
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      02-27-2009, 07:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by spearfisher View Post
Agreed, that's why you have some GTR's posting really good 1/4 times with low trap speeds.

but on the rolling run, launching the car was not a factor and they should have finished in this order.

1. E63
2. M3
3. 911 S

but I still believe that the launch should not be an issue in an automated trans, if they were all manuals, yes the E63 with the high tq and hp should be difficult to launch, but the M3's clutch make it tricky to launch also, with the 911 being the easiest to launch off the line, but these variables should not be a factor due to the fact of launch control and all being either an automated trans or fully auto trans.
No, the M3 is stronger than the 63 from a roll. The torque of the big AMG V8 really shows from a stop.

You don't have experience with launch control, a good launch is hardly guaranteed and it varies based on traction.
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      02-28-2009, 12:34 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spearfisher View Post
Agreed, that's why you have some GTR's posting really good 1/4 times with low trap speeds.

but on the rolling run, launching the car was not a factor and they should have finished in this order.

1. E63
2. M3
3. 911 S

but I still believe that the launch should not be an issue in an automated trans, if they were all manuals, yes the E63 with the high tq and hp should be difficult to launch, but the M3's clutch make it tricky to launch also, with the 911 being the easiest to launch off the line, but these variables should not be a factor due to the fact of launch control and all being either an automated trans or fully auto trans.
Just going by the basics, shouldn't the car with the best power to weight be favored (either off the line or from a roll), and the car with the worst power to weight finish last? That appears to be what happened here.

With or without launch control, the Porsche should beat up on the others off the line. It has the best traction due to major rear weight.

Bruce
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      02-28-2009, 01:34 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
All things considered I think your M3 did better than I expected. The Porsche's PDK is superior than BMW's M-DCT and it's launch setup and execution works better, not only that but it will get better traction off the line so that should have given it the edge at the start on which to build a commanding lead.

Also the Porsche has superior aerodynamics (less frontal area) and superior power to weight so ultimately it was expected to win this race. I do think your chances would have been improved had you shifted after launch to D mode but at best it would have only pulled you closer to the E63.

The surprise of the bunch was the E63, I expected it to come good at the end instead of matching you to 100km/h. I honestly would have thought that pressing your right foot to the boards in automatic mode without LC wouldn't have produced a launch compatible to the M3 but there you go, you learn something new everyday.

P.S.

Next time please try and get some video footage.
+1

I'm surprised the Porsche margin of victory wasn't larger.

No, your car was not hindered by recent oil change or the drive to the location. Reading too many M3 forums will distort expectations.
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      02-28-2009, 01:59 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I never thought of that one.

But the info he provided sounded are right.

OK, maybe his use of smileys was a bit much but there is no need to pick on the newbie.
LOL I could've mistaken this for a post by sflgator.

Seriously, the guy doesn't have a single post without a smiley. It irks me. It irks me bad, man.
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      02-28-2009, 02:02 AM   #28
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thanks guys I got the message
No I actually really did like the smileys, no sarcasm.

Good races and I appreciate the info.
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      03-02-2009, 05:45 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Just going by the basics, shouldn't the car with the best power to weight be favored (either off the line or from a roll), and the car with the worst power to weight finish last? That appears to be what happened here.

With or without launch control, the Porsche should beat up on the others off the line. It has the best traction due to major rear weight.

Bruce
I agree with the law of physics, power to weight ratio should always win, but I'm just going of 0-150 times. But yes, real world experience is what really counts, I'm still suprised by the outcome.
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      03-02-2009, 05:47 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
No, the M3 is stronger than the 63 from a roll. The torque of the big AMG V8 really shows from a stop.

You don't have experience with launch control, a good launch is hardly guaranteed and it varies based on traction.
I prefer to have control over the launch, myself, but I still think launch control does a better job than a human could, especially in poor track conditions.
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      03-02-2009, 05:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by spearfisher View Post
I prefer to have control over the launch, myself, but I still think launch control does a better job than a human could, especially in poor track conditions.
Well, you are wrong. A human can compensate for conditions, the computer can't.
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      03-02-2009, 07:17 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Well, you are wrong. A human can compensate for conditions, the computer can't.
I think thats debatable. What does it need to compensate for. All it needs to know is % of slip, and maintain what is considered optimal. I'd be willing to say the systems that used to be allowed in F1 are superior, or at least more consistant than a human. They used those driver aids to make the cars faster, amongst other things. If humans were better, they wouldn't have a need for traction control, launch control ect. Now I doubt the launch control we get on our road cars is as advanced, but I'm just talking about your statement, which I'm assuming is a blanket one.
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      03-02-2009, 07:25 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Irb Digital View Post
I think thats debatable. What does it need to compensate for. All it needs to know is % of slip, and maintain what is considered optimal. I'd be willing to say the systems that used to be allowed in F1 are superior, or at least more consistant than a human. They used those driver aids to make the cars faster, amongst other things. If humans were better, they wouldn't have a need for traction control, launch control ect. Now I doubt the launch control we get on our road cars is as advanced, but I'm just talking about your statement, which I'm assuming is a blanket one.
I don't think it is debatable at all. You are forced into programmed paramaters with launch control.

What about if you want to launch at 2000 rpm? Skrewed. 2500? Skrewed. What about slight gravel/sand? If launch control doesn't have grip, it doesn't work, a human being can still get a manual going and compensate for it.

F1 is on a tarmac built to the highest level with tires and chassis built to the highest possible level. The M3 launch control is not even compareable.

You have more control with a manual clutch 100% of the time and a computer can only do what it is programmed to do.

Especially in poor conditions is where a manual rules, not launch control, which works best in perfect conditions not poor ones.
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      03-02-2009, 10:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
I don't think it is debatable at all. You are forced into programmed paramaters with launch control.

What about if you want to launch at 2000 rpm? Skrewed. 2500? Skrewed. What about slight gravel/sand? If launch control doesn't have grip, it doesn't work, a human being can still get a manual going and compensate for it.

F1 is on a tarmac built to the highest level with tires and chassis built to the highest possible level. The M3 launch control is not even compareable.

You have more control with a manual clutch 100% of the time and a computer can only do what it is programmed to do.

Especially in poor conditions is where a manual rules, not launch control, which works best in perfect conditions not poor ones.
The LC on the M3 is not good at compensating for varying grip conditions. Absolutely. That being said writing an algorithm and program with some good sensor inputs for wheel spin and vehicle speed such that the system can consistently out launch a human on any surface is completely feasbile/possible. Such a system might need a sort of calibration run, but I d think it could be done even without a calibration run. Look at how good modern DSC and ABS systems are. This is essentially the same argument as to why a DCT system can consistently out shift a human. Computers and sensors are way faster and that is the essence of the difference.
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      03-02-2009, 10:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The LC on the M3 is not good at compensating for varying grip conditions. Absolutely. That being said writing an algorithm and program with some good sensor inputs for wheel spin and vehicle speed such that the system can consistently out launch a human on any surface is completely feasbile/possible. Such a system might need a sort of calibration run, but I d think it could be done even without a calibration run. Look at how good modern DSC and ABS systems are. This is essentially the same argument as to why a DCT system can consistently out shift a human. Computers and sensors are way faster and that is the essence of the difference.
You can make a system that can out launch a human.

You can't program a system that will think the way in a human being does and be able to adjust like a human being can on the fly to various circumstances.

This is not the same argument as to why a DCT can out shift a human, DCT has a mechanical advantage. Computers and sensors can't THINK, that is the essence of the difference.
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      03-03-2009, 02:35 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spearfisher View Post
I prefer to have control over the launch, myself, but I still think launch control does a better job than a human could, especially in poor track conditions.
I know that the system used in the M3 isn't capable of launching the car better than a human, it's sole advantage is giving the car a set rev point to launch the dct M3 from but when conditions are less than ideal it's method of foot to the floor and hope for the best is piss-poor at best. I have tested it on several occasions all of which were less than ideal and on each occasion I was quicker by feathering the throttle and controlling the wheelspin with zero revs at the launch point.

The system in the M3 DCT would be perfect for an awd car but is crap in a rwd car with over 400hp at the rear wheels.
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      03-03-2009, 02:37 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I know that the system used in the M3 isn't capable of launching the car better than a human, it's sole advantage is giving the car a set rev point to launch the dct M3 from but when conditions are less than ideal it's method of foot to the floor and hope for the best is piss-poor at best. I have tested it on several occasions all of which were less than ideal and on each occasion I was quicker by feathering the throttle and controlling the wheelspin with zero revs at the launch point.

The system in the M3 DCT would be perfect for an awd car but is crap in a rwd car with over 400hp at the rear wheels.
It isn't crap, it is how you use it. When you have traction, it works perfectly. You don't have over 400 hp at the rear wheels. Not to mention you CAN get much wider tires.

Your first point is correct.
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      03-03-2009, 02:47 AM   #38
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The GTR launch contorl does amazing in all situations, wet, dry, slippy. I really don't think a human can match the GTR LC. M3 system on the other hand is a different story.
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      03-03-2009, 02:55 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
It isn't crap, it is how you use it. When you have traction, it works perfectly. You don't have over 400 hp at the rear wheels. Not to mention you CAN get much wider tires.

Your first point is correct.
It is crap when used as described in the manual which demands you to keep the foot firmly press to the floor and that is the only way to get the LC to complete it's task of shifting perfectly at each red line. I also say that it was crap on anything other than a surface which provided optimum traction, as for the 400hp at the rear wheel that was more a figure of speech as the car produces over 400hp and is driven by the rear wheels.

Sure you car get wider tyres which will prove traction but as the car comes from the factory the LC setup is piss-poor compared to others.
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      03-03-2009, 02:58 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC View Post
The GTR launch contorl does amazing in all situations, wet, dry, slippy. I really don't think a human can match the GTR LC. M3 system on the other hand is a different story.
As I said above, any awd car would benefit from the system provided in the M3 DCT, all that is required from an awd car is ample power, a strong clutch and a decent rev point that stop it from bogging down. Get those things right and you have in the case of the GTR a sub 3.5s 0-60mph.
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      03-03-2009, 03:02 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC View Post
The GTR launch contorl does amazing in all situations, wet, dry, slippy. I really don't think a human can match the GTR LC. M3 system on the other hand is a different story.
That isn't as much due to launch control as it is due to AWD.

There are downsides as well, how about blowing the trans? With a RWD car, the launch can handle more power.
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      03-03-2009, 03:04 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
It is crap when used as described in the manual which demands you to keep the foot firmly press to the floor and that is the only way to get the LC to complete it's task of shifting perfectly at each red line. I also say that it was crap on anything other than a surface which provided optimum traction, as for the 400hp at the rear wheel that was more a figure of speech as the car produces over 400hp and is driven by the rear wheels.

Sure you car get wider tyres which will prove traction but as the car comes from the factory the LC setup is piss-poor compared to others.
So, you would prefer not to have your foot to the floor? Huh?

As LC comes from the factory, it is amazing that they let you launch up to 6000 RPM. It isn't designed to be an everyday street tool, it is designed for situations where you are in perfect traction conditions in order to achieve the best standing start.

LC works just fine when you get experience with it.
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      03-03-2009, 03:17 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
That isn't as much due to launch control as it is due to AWD.

There are downsides as well, how about blowing the trans? With a RWD car, the launch can handle more power.

WRONG, it's not the power that is the limiting factor with awd or rwd but the amount of traction. Increase the traction and you place the parts up stream under added stress.
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      03-03-2009, 03:23 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
So, you would prefer not to have your foot to the floor? Huh?

As LC comes from the factory, it is amazing that they let you launch up to 6000 RPM. It isn't designed to be an everyday street tool, it is designed for situations where you are in perfect traction conditions in order to achieve the best standing start.

LC works just fine when you get experience with it.
When you are getting excessive wheelspin then yes I prefer to keep my foot off the floor. Try moving yourself out of the sunshine state and try using LC when it's cold and damp.

As a tool the LC provided in the M3 as I see it is solely a variable rev point which you can control between 4500~6000rpm and it shifts gear for you at red line, it seems to provide no option of controlling the amount of wheelspin and as such it's quicker forgetting about it completely if like me you're seldom in the situation of ideal traction conditions.
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