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      03-05-2009, 04:05 PM   #23
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so why is the postmaster general getting $800,000/yr
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      03-05-2009, 07:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
Go back and read my post. I compared it to INSTITUTIONAL investors owning large blocks, not you personally. Large institutional investors often use their size to demand changes without resorting to selling their holdings. Your chosen method of voicing your opinion by selling stocks is not the only method in the market for influencing Board decisions. Executive Compensation Boards are subject to this same pressure, including the threat of recalling individual Board members. No selling of stocks are required. I'm not comparing you to institutional investors, or to gov't ownership of a company's stocks.

And what the Democrats really want to do, and are currently doing, is to establish minority ownership just long enough to keep the economy from spiraling downward and crashing the entire economy. It's called a "soft landing". If a soft landing can be achieved, these companies will regain their private ownership. Stop trying to pretend there is some devious scheme.

But more to the point, again:

Why do you have a problem with the shareholders having a say in executive compensation?


I'm not going to play your game of throwing the spread at me so you can avoid direct questions. Either you can answer or not.
I don't know how this statement:

"But it is not the role of government to control who deserves their income and who doesn't. That's not free market capitalism. Let the shareholders decide whether such policies should succeed or not."

can now be translated as me saying that I don't want shareholders to have say in executive compensation. I don't want bad business practices to continue. Shareholders should have a say in those policies by voting for or against the company (i.e. buy or sell the stock).

I have a problem when the government goes too far, which is what I fear will likely happen. We originally dealt with the banking problems with bridge loans and, as you describe, loans meant to keep the economy from falling apart. But that's not where we are right now when we talk about government control of Citigroup.

I apologize for misreading your post, Nixon. I'd like to think of this situation as government acting like a large institution in taking control of a company. But what in the past has given you the confidence that government can responsibly operate a business? I haven't seen any. Take a look at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Even in the short term, I don't like the idea of government (lead by individuals which are seated for at least 2 years, regardless of the job performance (with some exception)) trying to assume the role of a business institution.

I have already supported the bank bailouts. Ideally, I would have liked to have seen government lend to a bank like Wells Fargo or Merrill in order for them to acquire/bailout certain banks privately. But, I think it was a necessary evil to ensure that the banking system doesn't collapse. But that doesn't mean that I now willfully support any government intervention in the banking system.
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      03-05-2009, 07:21 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by imported_MPower View Post
I don't know how this statement:

"But it is not the role of government to control who deserves their income and who doesn't. That's not free market capitalism. Let the shareholders decide whether such policies should succeed or not."

can now be translated as me saying that I don't want shareholders to have say in executive compensation.

The Government IS a shareholder.

When you say that the Government shouldn't have a say, you ARE saying that shareholders shouldn't have a say.

In set theory, the Government is a subset of All Shareholders. So when you say that the Government (as shareholders) shouldn't have any say, then you ARE saying you don't want shareholders to have say in executive compensation.

I could draw a ven diagram for you if it would help.

I don't think I can get any clearer on this. You are going to have to explain what you don't understand. This is really getting tedious. I'm beginning to wonder if you are just being intellectually dishonest on purpose.

So let me ask again,

Why do you have a problem with shareholders having a say in executive compensation?
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      03-05-2009, 08:29 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
The Government IS a shareholder.

When you say that the Government shouldn't have a say, you ARE saying that shareholders shouldn't have a say.

In set theory, the Government is a subset of All Shareholders. So when you say that the Government (as shareholders) shouldn't have any say, then you ARE saying you don't want shareholders to have say in executive compensation.

I could draw a ven diagram for you if it would help.

I don't think I can get any clearer on this. You are going to have to explain what you don't understand. This is really getting tedious. I'm beginning to wonder if you are just being intellectually dishonest on purpose.

So let me ask again,

Why do you have a problem with shareholders having a say in executive compensation?
Fair enough. Government, as a shareholder of Citigroup, should be granted the same privileges when it comes to Citigroup.

But as should be clear already, I am not in favor of government becoming the shareholders or holding minority interest in any corporation. I don't think that promotes free market capitalism.

Where I have problem is when people suggest that since certain companies receive a loan from the government (whether it be from TARP or from the stimulus package), that this allows the government to have the same privileges as a shareholder. Just because a certain bank receives TARP loans does not mean that government should be allowed to control executive compensation or how the company operates. That's government control of business and that's what I am opposed to.

And, as an aside, your set theory analysis made me laugh since I hate set theory. It was my least favorite part of MAT 300.
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      03-06-2009, 09:15 AM   #27
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I believe only a messianic figure can fully implement this idea.
AKA- The Antichrist?

I am not trying to be funny or sarcastic, I am wondering if this is where you are going with your premise here?
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      03-07-2009, 07:26 AM   #28
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rich people bitching about taxes is beyond pathetic. i define rich as someone who has at least 100,000$ in their checking account/savings account that they keep for a rainy day. if your income is $250K per year, and at the end of the year you are able to save $20K, then you are rich.

if taxes go up to 50% and you are "ONLY" able to save $15,000 or $10,000 per year after all your expenses; your life is still fricking awesome. Do you expect the rest of the population that lives paycheck to paycheck to feel sorry for you?

Rich people are just like the rest of us, they spend on what they need and save the rest. they put it in bank accounts and watch their money grow. So either the rich need to start spending that extra money, or the gov't should raise taxes on the rich in order for the extra money to be spent by the gov't on reconstruction, schools, etc. . .

If the rich were to build schools, hire construction workers to build roads, then we wouldn't need to tax them. But they are hoarding the money, so i'm glad gov't is taxing them.
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      03-07-2009, 12:12 PM   #29
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rich people bitching about taxes is beyond pathetic. i define rich as someone who has at least 100,000$ in their checking account/savings account that they keep for a rainy day. if your income is $250K per year, and at the end of the year you are able to save $20K, then you are rich.

if taxes go up to 50% and you are "ONLY" able to save $15,000 or $10,000 per year after all your expenses; your life is still fricking awesome. Do you expect the rest of the population that lives paycheck to paycheck to feel sorry for you?

Rich people are just like the rest of us, they spend on what they need and save the rest. they put it in bank accounts and watch their money grow. So either the rich need to start spending that extra money, or the gov't should raise taxes on the rich in order for the extra money to be spent by the gov't on reconstruction, schools, etc. . .

If the rich were to build schools, hire construction workers to build roads, then we wouldn't need to tax them. But they are hoarding the money, so i'm glad gov't is taxing them.

I'm not debating about feeling sorry for the rich or not but why should we feel so much sorry for the poor? I'm sure everyone knows an example or two of the "poor" totally corrupting the system. I have employees who won't work more hours cause it'll effect their government funding. By the way, these same employees who work 30 hours a week with government funding(free housing, health care benefits, weekly food stamps) and full tax return(5k total return was given to each of my employees) makes more than most residence I know (40k tax free). I'm not saying I don't want to help the poor but there are a lot of corrupted "poor" that makes me not care for. I don't blame them, I only blame the system. Welfare is used for assistance when one loses a job. I can understand 2-3 month help but when one stays on the system their whole life, it's not right.
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      03-07-2009, 12:53 PM   #30
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Thumbs up

....because when the rich win, everybody wins!
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      03-07-2009, 01:20 PM   #31
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I'm not debating about feeling sorry for the rich or not but why should we feel so much sorry for the poor? I'm sure everyone knows an example or two of the "poor" totally corrupting the system. I have employees who won't work more hours cause it'll effect their government funding. By the way, these same employees who work 30 hours a week with government funding(free housing, health care benefits, weekly food stamps) and full tax return(5k total return was given to each of my employees) makes more than most residence I know (40k tax free). I'm not saying I don't want to help the poor but there are a lot of corrupted "poor" that makes me not care for. I don't blame them, I only blame the system. Welfare is used for assistance when one loses a job. I can understand 2-3 month help but when one stays on the system their whole life, it's not right.
Fortunately we don't have to worry about "rich" totally corrupting the system...to the tune of billions.

Lets just focus on those evil poor and the thousands of dollars they steal!
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      03-07-2009, 02:01 PM   #32
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Fortunately we don't have to worry about "rich" totally corrupting the system...to the tune of billions.

Lets just focus on those evil poor and the thousands of dollars they steal!
Again, I only speak for the small business owners like myself not Billionaires who has their own reasoning.
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      03-09-2009, 09:53 AM   #33
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Yeah, I guess that my wife, who has her own CPA practice but no additional employees, isn't really working. Most every small business has at least one employee, even if it is the "sole proprietor."

I'm just getting tired of the vilification of CEO's and the wealthy, making them the scapegoats for the economy and why things aren't better. Nothing like class warfare to garner support to Obama's socialist dreams.

But hey, I converted in another thread due to the eloquence of a poster. I welcome my new Socialist Overlords with open arms. As a matter of fact, I've decided to start skipping my mortgage payments next month so I can get my own little piece of the stimulus pie.
You too.....Beacause im stopping my mortgage payments as well. I want Obama money aka stimulus pie. Hey if those non educated bums are getting money that dont have a pot to piss in because they sqauandered in on total bullshit I think Im entitled to some money as well. I mean I like you pay my fare share of taxes right.
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      03-09-2009, 10:07 AM   #34
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rich people bitching about taxes is beyond pathetic. i define rich as someone who has at least 100,000$ in their checking account/savings account that they keep for a rainy day. if your income is $250K per year, and at the end of the year you are able to save $20K, then you are rich.

if taxes go up to 50% and you are "ONLY" able to save $15,000 or $10,000 per year after all your expenses; your life is still fricking awesome. Do you expect the rest of the population that lives paycheck to paycheck to feel sorry for you?

Rich people are just like the rest of us, they spend on what they need and save the rest. they put it in bank accounts and watch their money grow. So either the rich need to start spending that extra money, or the gov't should raise taxes on the rich in order for the extra money to be spent by the gov't on reconstruction, schools, etc. . .

If the rich were to build schools, hire construction workers to build roads, then we wouldn't need to tax them. But they are hoarding the money, so i'm glad gov't is taxing them.
Spoken like a true blood sucker. I went to college....sacrificed a lot during my college days. Took out large student loans in order to finance my education. Didnt go out and party that much and knew full well that I will
make something of myself. I bought a house, took money out of my house in order to start a business because I couldnt get a loan from the bank from my business. Im in that tax bracket that all you blood sucker want taxed.

Let me ask you this....you want me to pay higher taxes so that Im on the same level as you? You want me to be able to put less away for my daughter because you dont make as much as me? I have to feel bad because i busted my ass hard in order to lead the life I have. So now I have to be punished because your jealous ass doesnt have a bank account the size of mine. I dont feel bad that about what I have and what I can have. I deserve it.....I earned it.

Will you pay my student loan off if my company goes bust? Are you going to pay my mortgage if my company goes belly up? I mean you want my tax money and that tax money is coming from my business which was funded from my property. Therefore you HAVE TO AND MUST HELP ME IF MY COMPANY GOES BELLY UP. You benefit from my earnings which would mean I need your earnings if something were to happen to my business. However in the real world you dont give a fuckin rats ass about what happens to me or my family. Your type will just go after the next person that makes money and suck them dry. You and the rest of those Obama rats just want my taxes to be raised in order to help run the country.

I give enough to charity...i give to actual hospitals. I provide them with instruments for surgery. Lenses for cataract patients. Sutures, drapes etc etc. I would rather give real items to organizations than my money because the money will get lost through the cracks. My total donations total $75,000-$100,000 a year. But that still isnt good enough I see. I hope to god that everyone who donates like I do just stops and pays those extra taxes that you democrats want and then we will see how much of that money is actually given back.
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      03-09-2009, 11:46 AM   #35
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Spoken like a true blood sucker. I went to college....sacrificed a lot during my college days. Took out large student loans in order to finance my education. Didnt go out and party that much and knew full well that I will
make something of myself. I bought a house, took money out of my house in order to start a business because I couldnt get a loan from the bank from my business. Im in that tax bracket that all you blood sucker want taxed.

Let me ask you this....you want me to pay higher taxes so that Im on the same level as you? You want me to be able to put less away for my daughter because you dont make as much as me? I have to feel bad because i busted my ass hard in order to lead the life I have. So now I have to be punished because your jealous ass doesnt have a bank account the size of mine. I dont feel bad that about what I have and what I can have. I deserve it.....I earned it.

Will you pay my student loan off if my company goes bust? Are you going to pay my mortgage if my company goes belly up? I mean you want my tax money and that tax money is coming from my business which was funded from my property. Therefore you HAVE TO AND MUST HELP ME IF MY COMPANY GOES BELLY UP. You benefit from my earnings which would mean I need your earnings if something were to happen to my business. However in the real world you dont give a fuckin rats ass about what happens to me or my family. Your type will just go after the next person that makes money and suck them dry. You and the rest of those Obama rats just want my taxes to be raised in order to help run the country.

I give enough to charity...i give to actual hospitals. I provide them with instruments for surgery. Lenses for cataract patients. Sutures, drapes etc etc. I would rather give real items to organizations than my money because the money will get lost through the cracks. My total donations total $75,000-$100,000 a year. But that still isnt good enough I see. I hope to god that everyone who donates like I do just stops and pays those extra taxes that you democrats want and then we will see how much of that money is actually given back.
Nicely said!!!!
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      03-09-2009, 03:53 PM   #36
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^^ typical republicanites.
here is good joke that you might appreciate

A liberal democratic girl comes home for vacation from college. She begins grilling her father about having his taxes raised (spread the wealth). He doesnt feel he needs to pay more taxes. She begins to tell him all she has learned in college from her liberal instructors. How he should be happy to pay higher taxes (redistribution of wealth) and how he needs to pay more because he doesnt need to go on all those vacations and eat out as much blah blah blah

The father then asks his daughter whether she has a boyfriend. She answers "NO". He asks her why not. She replies I dont have time for one because i work to get spending money and during my free time I study. THe father asks her is she goes out to parties....the daughter answers "no dad I dont have time I need to sudy and graduate with a 4.0".

Her father then asks how her roomate is doing in college. SHe answers she has a 2.0, average, but she is the life of the party, has a boyfriend , goes out a lot and drinks a lot.

Her father the proceeds to say "how about you go to the deen and tell him you would like to take 1.0 from your average and give it to your roomate so that both of you have a 3.0 average. The daughter say "no way thats not fare, i busted my ass in order to get that 4.0 and you just want me to hand over 1.0 because my roomate doesnt have priorities.

The father then replies..."honey welcome to the republican party"


That being said all of you that feel my taxes need to be a redistribution of wealth I say you are sponges and as long as there are good accountants you have a better chance of getting bit by a great white shark walking in the Sahara and getting hit by lightening than us giving our hard earned money back.

If i am going to be taxed higher then so should Obama....then again why is his money hidden where his taxes are only 5% a year. If the president doesnt pay his share why the fuck should I
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      03-09-2009, 07:08 PM   #37
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Unfortunately, Obama's Tax Plan reminds me so much of Herbert Hoover in the 1930's when he raised taxes on investors and the wealthy, the same group of people who provided jobs. Look at the Market today his plan is the complete reflection of why things are getting worse. How do you tell investors we are going to tax you more on capital gains by 33% and Dividend Gains the same and expect a turnaround? It's like he's trying to ruin this market on purpose, the timing is not right.
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      03-10-2009, 01:07 AM   #38
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I love the fact that I busted my ass for a degree and because so I get to pay for the people who are lazy and never want to work hard for something
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      03-10-2009, 07:46 AM   #39
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^^ typical republicanites.
You bet!
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      03-10-2009, 08:56 AM   #40
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I love the fact that I busted my ass for a degree and because so I get to pay for the people who are lazy and never want to work hard for something
And they say jews and arabs dont agree on anything LOL. Read my post #36 and #39. I think you will appreciate them.
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      03-10-2009, 08:58 AM   #41
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Have you all noticed how the media is still kissing Obamas ass. Enough already we understand that he is the countries first black president. But the F*ckin honeymoon is over. He has been in office for 50 days and already talking stupid shit. The media now has to get on his Presidential ass to see what his goals are. Dont freakin sugar coat anything because he is black. Dont sugar coat anything because you might offend him. He is the president for gods sake....tell him like it is. He chose this job therefore he needs to listen to all the shit directed his way.
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      03-10-2009, 11:29 AM   #42
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And they say jews and arabs dont agree on anything LOL. Read my post #36 and #39. I think you will appreciate them.
I read both of them, #39 was a great one

I will admit though, when it comes to money Jews and Arabs are on the same page

It is amazing to me though that we want to tax the people who work hard to achieve financial stability to pay for the ones who are either lazy or not very responsible.

I have never been hired by an employer who was poor and the more we tax the rich owners, the less jobs there will be. It's common sense IMO
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      03-10-2009, 12:43 PM   #43
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I just love these type of conversations... Let take a bunch of number, do some statistics on them and tell a story around them.

Here another set.

10% of the top income earners pay 50% of the earned income tax in the US. The other 90% pay the other 50%. Also, that same 90% tend to derive more benefits then that actually pay in.

So if you want it all to be fair, the US should move to a simple flat tax no deductions or tax shelters or tax deferments. We all pay like 15% or 20% no matter how much you make or how many expenses you have or how big you mortgage is. Your tax form would be one page and you will be done, do not have to worry what you owe or are getting back.

Side benefit, it would get rid of the IRS and a bunch of tax accountants. Also the only way the government gets more money is to make sure well all make more.

If you are in the top 10% (about $120K year) this is by household BTW or Married filling separately. You should be upset you pay the largest majority of the taxes in the US, this includes Medicare and Social Security.

Also, what is a joke is most small businesses, or sole proprietor business do not pay lots of "earned Income" and SS and Medicare. Because if they set up their business correctly. Their take home pay is minimal, however the business pays a dividend, which on tax at lower rate and you do not pay SS and Medicare.

A friend of mine has a business with a partner, his "pay check" is about $30K, however the business pays out a dividend check each quarter of about $100K. So he make about $430K a year, pays Earned income, SS and Medicare on $30K which is nothing. Then pays what every is the tax rate is on dividends.

So under the Obama plan his taxes will not change that much since his pay check is not over $250K it is only $30K if any thing, he will pay less on his $30K and his dividend tax might go up but he is not paying SS and Medicare on that amount which add up to another 18% for someone who has their own business.

So the real people who will be affected by the Obama plan is those who work for a company and bring home a check each month that adds up to more then $250K. Most likely commission sales people.
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      03-10-2009, 03:48 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Maestro View Post
A friend of mine has a business with a partner, his "pay check" is about $30K, however the business pays out a dividend check each quarter of about $100K. So he make about $430K a year, pays Earned income, SS and Medicare on $30K which is nothing. Then pays what every is the tax rate is on dividends.
The IRS started really cracking down on this exact scenario that you describe (S-Corp with low salaries but high distributions.) Huge K1 distributions over an extended period of time will trigger an audit. Then they will reclassify all that dividend money to personal income, then slap you with the taxes due, penalties and interest.

Also, they've started to aggressively pursue the financial advisors, CPA's and attorney's that advise their clients to go this route. Some are willing to take the risks, others are not. My wife has turned away clients who want to push the limits to the extreme because she is not comfortable with the "risk-reward" equation. She has a lot of risk working with these clients for very little reward.
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