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      03-03-2009, 02:50 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
Solution would be again allow private parties to bailout the fallen car companies, banks, insurance, health care. Allow the people to bring this country back to being prosperous and less government involvement.

Sure, I can give you my personal experience as example. I bought out a company that was on verge of bankrupt now after three years it's a multimillion dollar company. No bailout, no borrowing of money nada
That sounds like a great solution. Too bad it is completely unrealistic and will fail.

How do I know that?

Because it's already been tried, and it failed. That's why Lehman went down. There wasn't a single company, entity, or private individual that would buy Lehman without the Feds putting billions into the deal.

The only time buyouts happened was when the Federal Reserve put cash into the deals. Bear Stearns was the first to be sold, and JPMorgan Chase only agreed to the deal when the Feds threw $30 BILLION into the deal.

Is this what you call "free market"?

Is that your solution? Have more tax dollars fund buyouts? Because they have been PROVEN not to go through without these tax dollars.

Since there is nobody dumb enough to buy these banks as far underwater as they are, what is the REST of your so-called "free market" solution? What is your plan when the Bank-Buying Fairy doesn't magically appear, and there are NO timely buyers?

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I ask for an example WITHIN THE LAST 9 MONTHS and you give me a 3 year old example from when the market was flying upwards. Try again. Give me an example timely to THE CURRENT CRISIS. That's the problem, you free market religious zealots still think the economy works like it did a year ago.
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      03-03-2009, 03:01 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
Solution would be again allow private parties to bailout the fallen car companies, banks, insurance, health care. Allow the people to bring this country back to being prosperous and less government involvement.
Hey, how about I buy an M3, and get $100,000 dollars underwater on the payments. Will you buy it and assume the debt? I'll sell you the car for just a dollar. Come on, it's cheap, you can afford a dollar for an M3, right?

Sound like a good deal to you?

If not, explain to me why this is a bad deal, and how I stand to make tens of thousands out of the deal while you get your clock cleaned. Then apply this lesson to buying banks that are 100's of BILLIONS of dollars underwater, even if you can buy a bank for only a dollar.
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      03-03-2009, 03:28 PM   #47
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Hey, how about I buy an M3, and get $100,000 dollars underwater on the payments. Will you buy it and assume the debt? I'll sell you the car for just a dollar. Come on, it's cheap, you can afford a dollar for an M3, right?

Sound like a good deal to you?

If not, explain to me why this is a bad deal, and how I stand to make tens of thousands out of the deal while you get your clock cleaned. Then apply this lesson to buying banks that are 100's of BILLIONS of dollars underwater, even if you can buy a bank for only a dollar.
Nah, I rather let the people buy it for me. I won't put a single penny of mine in that investment and if you want more than 100k? don't worry i'll just steal more from the people. Deal???
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      03-03-2009, 04:30 PM   #48
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Nah, I rather let the people buy it for me. I won't put a single penny of mine in that investment and if you want more than 100k? don't worry i'll just steal more from the people. Deal???
Again, you have NO "free market solution", so you change the topic to the gov't bailout.

You said you had a "free market solution", what is it? All you've put forward so far is something that was tried last summer, and failed.

Here again is my direct question, either you can answer it, or you can't:

Since there is nobody dumb enough to buy these banks as far underwater as they are, what is the REST of your so-called "free market" solution? What is your plan when the Bank-Buying Fairy doesn't magically appear, and there are NO timely buyers?

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      03-03-2009, 04:49 PM   #49
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I dont want to butt into this conversation but just one man's opinion here.

There are a lot economic policies of both Bush and Obama that I dont agree with. But when it comes to bank bailouts it's actually very simple: you have to have a banking system. It doesnt matter what stimulus plan you suggest, without a banking system the economy is far, far worse off.

So while it sucks to send tax payers into debt from bank bailout packages, it's a pill we have to swallow. I'd love to have a free market solution to banking problems but that just isnt going to happen in this economy. There are too many toxic assets on the balance sheets and no investor is seriously going to look at the bank balance sheet without serious, serious question. It's no surprise then that the president or CEO (or both, cant remeber) of Bank of America came out recently and said their free market/private deal with Meryill (I recall) was a mistake.

Bottom line is that you can not let banks fail and the US government is the only balance sheet out there that can tolerate taking on these problems.
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      03-03-2009, 06:02 PM   #50
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I dont want to butt into this conversation but just one man's opinion here.

There are a lot economic policies of both Bush and Obama that I dont agree with. But when it comes to bank bailouts it's actually very simple: you have to have a banking system. It doesnt matter what stimulus plan you suggest, without a banking system the economy is far, far worse off.

So while it sucks to send tax payers into debt from bank bailout packages, it's a pill we have to swallow. I'd love to have a free market solution to banking problems but that just isnt going to happen in this economy. There are too many toxic assets on the balance sheets and no investor is seriously going to look at the bank balance sheet without serious, serious question. It's no surprise then that the president or CEO (or both, cant remeber) of Bank of America came out recently and said their free market/private deal with Meryill (I recall) was a mistake.

Bottom line is that you can not let banks fail and the US government is the only balance sheet out there that can tolerate taking on these problems.
Having a banking system is not a problem, just do what the Swedish did and have one bank take all the bad assets and allow the others to recover. If and when the economy flourish bring back that bad bank and return the debt.


but that's the thing though, remember when that CEO spilled the bean on his expense per day? remember how much he pays his driver let alone his trash can in his office. I mean come on, of course it's not going to work when your driver makes over 200k per year which is more than 90 percent of the population in this world. AIG we all know is a big fraud. GM, Chrysler, and ford all three won't even put a single penny in their own company and you expect us to? Well guess what, it's in the work, government was given 36% share of Citigroup and nationalization of Banks is starting, and GM giving away shares also. Get ready to jump whenever the government says so.

I know the main concern is the little people here, how the rich can't be allow to fall cause of the domino effect. But come on, that's like the same issue why they hell are you taxing the rich people more than? If you can take more money from the rich, which returns takes away jobs too.

Nixon, you keep telling me to give an example now but look at the freaking situation!! it's so out of control cause of all these bailout. I didn't want to say what I really wanted cause you won't accept it, I want all the bad company to just fall and sad as it will be the economy to get worsen. I believe this bailout won't work and it's inevitable anyways. I just believe defaulting and starting over now is better than doing it 6 years from now.

Just in 2007-08 the borrowed money exceeded 7 trillion dollar. Now you include tarp and stimulus we're talking near 10 trillion borrowed in the last 2 years. I see no progress at all just decline. I mean you can borrow and print all you want but just listen to the japanese economist and you are writing the same transcript they wrote in 90's.
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      03-03-2009, 06:57 PM   #51
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Having a banking system is not a problem, just do what the Swedish did and have one bank take all the bad assets and allow the others to recover. If and when the economy flourish bring back that bad bank and return the debt.


Nixon, you keep telling me to give an example now but look at the freaking situation!! it's so out of control cause of all these bailout. I didn't want to say what I really wanted cause you won't accept it, I want all the bad company to just fall and sad as it will be the economy to get worsen. I believe this bailout won't work and it's inevitable anyways. I just believe defaulting and starting over now is better than doing it 6 years from now.
All I'm trying to do is to get just a little bit of honesty out of you.

Listen, I understand that you have a problem with the current solution. But be HONEST and admit that there is NO "free market solution".

The two situations you just described, the Swedish solution, and the bankruptcy solution are not free market solutions either.

In the Swedish solution, Sweden pumped SEK 66 billion into the banking sector so that Handelsbanken could buy them. That's the same model as the US subsidized bank buyouts last summer that have so far failed to solve the problem, and have in no way been free market solutions. Really the only thing that allowed Sweden to successfully prop up Handelsbanken was that they went in and heavily regulated their banking system to ban speculation using bank funds (sound familiar?). Also not a free market solution.

Your idea of allowing banks to go bankrupt is even FARTHER from a "free market solution".

When they crash, they won't have enough assets to pay out account holders. So they will go begging on their knees to have the US government come in and save the day, by spending US tax-payer's dollars to pay out ALL the account holders that are in FDIC insured accounts. This is a massive, massive amount of money. You think the cost of the bank bailouts are huge? Calculate the cost of paying out insurance on all of the Money Market and savings accounts that are currently insured up to 200,000/per account if the entire banking system collapses. That's not a "free market solution".

Next they will go begging on their knees to the federal courts to have the Government step in the middle of their private contracts, and have the Gov't declare these private contracts to be null and void. That they will never be required to pay back these debts because the Gov't says so. That's not a "free market solution". This will cost these private contract holders an incredible amount of money. Again, you think the cost of the bailout is painful? Wait until their losses have to be passed down to you, or they will also go bankrupt. If they go bankrupt, their debts get passed on to their lenders. No matter what, those losses WILL be passed on to consumers (tax payers). It is completely unavoidable.

What about the fired workers from these businesses? Unemployment insurance, payed (yet again) by the Gov't. Again, not a free market solution.


Do me a favor. Calculate what you expect the cost of FDIC payouts, and bankruptcy nullifications, and the unemployment insurance would be. Then add in the lost tax revenue from all of these employees, and these businesses. That is the down payment on how much failure would cost.

(Keeping in mind that even failure isn't a free market solution, because of all of the non-free market protections that are already in place.)

So stop being a smug free-market religious zealot, and admit that there is no such thing as a free market solution to this problem.
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      03-03-2009, 08:28 PM   #52
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I never said go bankrupt but obviously the first thing you think of is government asistant. I said let all the corrupted sectors fail, cause you try to explain to your kids how this morally right. Ah starting tomorrow I'm thinking I'm just going to stop all mortgage payment and live off of you.
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      03-03-2009, 09:28 PM   #53
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I never said go bankrupt but obviously the first thing you think of is government asistant. I said let all the corrupted sectors fail, cause you try to explain to your kids how this morally right. Ah starting tomorrow I'm thinking I'm just going to stop all mortgage payment and live off of you.

Let's see if you can answer a direct question.

How does a business fail, WITHOUT a buyer to buy it out, and WITHOUT a bankruptcy?
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      03-04-2009, 12:01 AM   #54
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You give 1 example of a system that runs poorly. I can point to another socialized medicine country like canada and say that one works like shit too. But then you can look at alot of countries in western europe, namely germany and see they have the best health care systems on the planet.

I'm not saying any plan is perfect. Just leaving millions of people without health care is dicking us all over. They get sick too, they go to the hospital and don't pay the bill. You either end up picking up the tab in taxes or higher medical bills for the people that actually do pay.

I think companies that make medical supplies, pharmaceuticals, etc are the reason why costs are so outrageous. They have something that everyone NEEDS and they control the supply and jack up the prices.
Germany as an example? Well, I don't remember my mom complaining about health care over there (she's German and lives there), so maybe their system works. But how do they fund that kind of system? High taxes, which she does complain about quite a bit. Her income puts her in middle/lower range of "middle class."

The top marginal tax rate is 45%, and everyone has to pay an additional 5.5% (Solidaritaetszuschlag.) So that gives you a top tax rate of 50.5%. Wow, pretty high. But wait, there's more.

Germany also has a VAT that is generally 19%. WOW! That would be like taking the State of Washington's current 9.0% sales tax and doubling it! But in WA, we don't pay sales tax on food at the grocery store. Some items in Germany (certain foods, but not all) have a reduced VAT of 7%.

Europe is the most heavily taxed continent, so it is no wonder that they have all the social programs.

As for why drugs are so expensive, there are a whole host of reasons for it. But I don't know of a single generic manufacturer that developed a new drug and brought it to market. Hell, what was the last breakthrough drug the government created? Oh yeah, they haven't! Profits drive R&D budgets, which drive medical advances. Drug development and trial costs reach hundreds of millions of dollars, and take many years. Drug companies only get 20 year patents, and that starts the day they register the drug concept, not the day the trial is complete and the drug is ready to launch.

Anyway, it is clearly a fundamental difference in how we see the role of government. You appear to support the concept that government is there to take care of you "cradle to grave", while I believe government should exist in the most minimal form to preserve law and order.
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      03-04-2009, 08:28 AM   #55
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Again you the take away the legs beneath me. Obviously, given the mess you can't go from one extreme to another. The culture shock itself would destroy this country. I believe you used the detroit lions as an analogy, if you inherit the team in the middle of the season are you going to change personal and instill you philosophy idmediately? No, you adapt to what you have in front of you and change when the time is right. Like I said I still believe people make a difference not corrupted leaders. You gave examples of private parties big screw ups, I can also give 10 trillion dollar screw bailout has done for us
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      03-05-2009, 07:01 AM   #56
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I agree with Nixon all the way, the gov't has to step in otherwise the major banks will fail, which will result in there being no money for the US auto makers, which will lead to tens of millions of more unemployed overnight. Foreclosures will increase and the world economy will tank. It will be the Great Depression on a global scale. I much rather gov't bailouts to steady the ship, than complete chaos.

Jonny I will disagree with what you said, that the reason we are in this situation is because of gov't bailouts. No no no sir, we are in this situation because of free market, and no regulation. In Canada, our banks have tight regulations, and all our banks made a PROFIT last quarter. Thanks to rules forcing them to have enough liquidity.
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      03-05-2009, 07:14 AM   #57
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that's the whole point, personally I believe we will have total chaos with or without bailout. I also don't think the bailout is cause of this downfall I just don't think it's the right solution.
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      03-05-2009, 09:04 AM   #58
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that's the whole point, personally I believe we will have total chaos with or without bailout. I also don't think the bailout is cause of this downfall I just don't think it's the right solution.
But i haven't heard any other solutions other than "big government is bad" or "this is socialism..."
I think everyone is willing to listen to other solutions if there were any.
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      03-05-2009, 09:31 AM   #59
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There has always been two choices from the beginning and that's either allow government take over or allow market to adjust by itself.

I'm sure you heard GM auditors just announced the car company has noway of digging themself out of this mess. The original plan has failed and 30 billion is needed pretty much just to prolong another two month of failure. To me buying bad debts just don't make any sense
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      03-05-2009, 12:22 PM   #60
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There has always been two choices from the beginning and that's either allow government take over or allow market to adjust by itself.

I'm sure you heard GM auditors just announced the car company has noway of digging themself out of this mess. The original plan has failed and 30 billion is needed pretty much just to prolong another two month of failure. To me buying bad debts just don't make any sense

The point of buying bad debts is to keep from falling into an irreversible downward spiral that keeps sucking in more and more sectors of the economy until the entire nation's economy is destroyed.

Remember that GM was holding it's head above water by itself before the home mortgage crisis started. GM is just part of the first wave of companies that are being sucked into the vortex of the downward spiral.

And there is no such thing as "allow the market to adjust by itself", as we've already covered (and you refuse to answer direct questions about). Because to "allow the market to adjust by itself" actually means having these banks and companies go crawling to the Gov't when they fail. There is no "by itself". It is always with the Feds and tax payers cleaning up after them.
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      03-05-2009, 12:59 PM   #61
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I've already answered your question but you refuse to accept. That's what i believe and government is what u believe in
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      03-05-2009, 01:31 PM   #62
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But i haven't heard any other solutions other than "big government is bad" or "this is socialism..."
I think everyone is willing to listen to other solutions if there were any.

You will never get a straight answer out of these guys. They will repeat their high-level "free market" dogma over and over. But the moment you ask for the slightest bit of details, all they can do is repeat their high-level dogma.
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      03-05-2009, 04:04 PM   #63
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You will never get a straight answer out of these guys. They will repeat their high-level "free market" dogma over and over. But the moment you ask for the slightest bit of details, all they can do is repeat their high-level dogma.
They all have been watching too much Fox News.
Nixon where did elvis go by the way?
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      03-05-2009, 04:27 PM   #64
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They all have been watching too much Fox News.
Nixon where did elvis go by the way?

Hey Heinz,

Elvis got purged in the conglomeration of 1addicts into bimmerpost, and I've never bothered to put him back. It's better than what happened to MPower. He got turned into an Imp (imported_MPower).

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      03-05-2009, 04:59 PM   #65
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of course there will be more debt, duh! i never said it's false. my point is the republican alternative is worse than having another 1 trillion$ in debt. the US national debt is over 50 trillion. 1 more trillion isn't going to make a difference. all it means is it will take an extra generation to repay the money. and we'll all be dead by the time this money is fully paid back.



it's going everywhere that needs money. that's all i need to know. nobody, not even the bitching republicans have read the entire stimulus package, have you?
because of the smart ppl like you we are in this mess right now ...
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      03-07-2009, 07:06 AM   #66
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because of the smart ppl like you we are in this mess right now ...
what makes you think you are intelligent?



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And there is no such thing as "allow the market to adjust by itself", as we've already covered (and you refuse to answer direct questions about). Because to "allow the market to adjust by itself" actually means having these banks and companies go crawling to the Gov't when they fail. There is no "by itself". It is always with the Feds and tax payers cleaning up after them.
you put this in BOLD, LARGE FONT, UNDERLINED, BRIGHT RED INK for special effect.
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