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      02-24-2009, 11:16 AM   #23
T Bone
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
TB, you are really talking launching (due to the short distance) in the winter, in Canada of all the places, AWD vs RWD. (I bet the M3 had PS2s on. The M3 drivers I saw in Boston--around Newbury Street of course--the past few months who looked like "cocks" were indeed on PS2s in -5C weather, which cracked me up pretty good!) So, I am not surprised. As to your question, if I had to guess, I'd agree with Bruce. But Swamp is probably setting up the simulation in CarTest as we speak, so we might have some numbers to argue about soon.

Hey man....yes the M3 definitely had traction issues. Although he was clad in non-M3 wheels (which means he had winter tires). I have winter tires and I am almost stock

I look forward to Swampy's numbers.
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      02-24-2009, 11:21 AM   #24
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Hey man....yes the M3 definitely had traction issues. Although he was clad in non-M3 wheels (which means he had winter tires). I have winter tires and I am almost stock
I tried a launch last night on my way home, and found no traction with winter tires and ended up short shifting. Salt and sand everywhere on the streets!
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      02-24-2009, 11:35 AM   #25
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The only issue that I will raise is bogging with AWD. I have certainly done it with my 335xi.... So while AWD is an inherent advantage, the skill for both drivers needs to be there.
I personally never suffered from 'bogging down' with an of my Quattro car though I am not saying it isn't possible with them either. I just know from experience that launching a very powerful rwd car takes a lot more skill than the other and given the fact very few of us are doing it on a day to day basis I think it's highly likely that the chances of error are much greater with the M3 and all other high powered rwd cars which have rubber less than 305.

Though with two equally skilled drivers it's probably going to a lot closer though over such a short distant the AWD cars should all hold the advantage.
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      02-24-2009, 11:39 AM   #26
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Geez, how old are you? you act like the 335 is your first car ever..

His lane was ending so you had position over him

I'm sure if it was the other way around YOU would have been blocked.. so why are you bragging when you actually had an advantage over him? The 335xi is not a slow car by any means.. and to 60 meters I bet it could have blocked all the cars on kmax1980's list if they didn't get perfect launches..

--mike
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      02-24-2009, 12:08 PM   #27
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Sad thread.
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      02-24-2009, 12:27 PM   #28
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Geez, how old are you? you act like the 335 is your first car ever..

--mike

335 is my life cuz. It is the best car ever, in the world, anytime. It is even better than VTAK yo!


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Sad thread.
Gee thanks for the contribution. Give me the recipe for your elixer because obviously your shit don't stink.

Why don't you read for a bit and see if you can learn anything.
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      02-24-2009, 01:19 PM   #29
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Funny some of the M3 guys are out of joint.

I had a 335xi with a bunch of Dinan stuff, trust me, it would kill the M3 in a 0-60m run.

The M3 is just not that car. The 335xi really is a great car. It is not an M3 in a million other ways though. Too many to discuss.

As Clarkson said of the M3 "What a car, what a masterpiece..."
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      02-24-2009, 01:41 PM   #30
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I already know the answer(haven't read the whole thread though).

It's because your 335Xi not only has 2 turbos but it also has DFI and the M3 doesn't. LOL

j/k mate.

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      02-24-2009, 03:40 PM   #31
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OK just did a very quick analysis. To cover 30m-70m I chose the US equivalents about 100, 150 and 200 ft. I ran a sim including all of the cars you mention at once.

This type of contest is obviosuly highly launch dependent and tracking the positions of the cars during launch and during wheel spin will absolutely introduce more inaccuracies in simulation than in getting a 1/4 mi time. I found the 60 foot times varied (across the pack) from about 1.8 - 2.1 s.
  • At about 3 seconds the average position of the pack is about at 100ft at this time there will be a spread of distances covered by the cars of about 90-110 ft. Given that exactly one car length ~15 ft is required for said "cock block" you could just start to see the fastest CB the slowest at around the 100 ft mark.
  • At ~3.75 seconds the average position of the pack is ~150 ft. Here the total gap opens up to 145-167 ft or about 1.5 car lengths between the fastest and slowest. More CBs are now possible.
  • At ~4.25 seconds the average distance of the pack is ~200ft. The distance spread opens up to 185-212 ft or just about 2 car lengths.
(Don't acribe any precision to the third digits of the spreads above (i.e. 212 feet could EASILY be 218 or hell maybe even 200, there are many variables here. The idea was just to estimate the total spread in terms of number of car lengths, that should be fairly reresentative if all got eqivalently strong launches.)

Among this elite realm of of cars, especially all of the ones that launch really well from AWD, LC and or rear weight bias the M3 is not going to be able to do any CB-ing anywhere up to 200 ft. In this regard I agree with Bruce completely. It takes some more time and distance and it will start by being able to CB the RS4. It is simply always at or near the bottom on the distance vs. time charts at these short distances.
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      02-24-2009, 03:44 PM   #32
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This is no fun. Everyone agreed.
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      02-24-2009, 03:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
OK just did a very quick analysis. To cover 30m-70m I chose the US equivalents about 100, 150 and 200 ft. I ran a sim including all of the cars you mention at once.

This type of contest is obviosuly highly launch dependent and tracking the positions of the cars during launch and during wheel spin will absolutely introduce more inaccuracies in simulation than in getting a 1/4 mi time. I found the 60 foot times varied (across the pack) from about 1.8 - 2.1 s.
  • At about 3 seconds the average position of the pack is about at 100ft at this time there will be a spread of distances covered by the cars of about 90-110 ft. Given that exactly one car length ~15 ft is required for said "cock block" you could just start to see the fastest CB the slowest at around the 100 ft mark.
  • At ~3.75 seconds the average position of the pack is ~150 ft. Here the total gap opens up to 145-167 ft or about 1.5 car lengths between the fastest and slowest. More CBs are now possible.
  • At ~4.25 seconds the average distance of the pack is ~200ft. The distance spread opens up to 185-212 ft or just about 2 car lengths.
(Don't acribe any precision to the third digits of the spreads above (i.e. 212 feet could EASILY be 218 or hell maybe even 200, there are many variables here. The idea was just to estimate the total spread in terms of number of car lengths, that should be fairly reresentative if all got eqivalently strong launches.)

Among this elite realm of of cars, especially all of the ones that launch really well from AWD, LC and or rear weight bias the M3 is not going to be able to do any CB-ing anywhere up to 200 ft. In this regard I agree with Bruce completely. It takes some more time and distance and it will start by being able to CB the RS4. It is simply always at or near the bottom on the distance vs. time charts at these short distances.
Swamp, this is great stuff. I always enjoy reading your technical posts here throughout the forum. How do you do all these calculations? You have a program or do you use basic excel (macro) type analysis?
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      02-24-2009, 05:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
OK just did a very quick analysis. To cover 30m-70m I chose the US equivalents about 100, 150 and 200 ft. I ran a sim including all of the cars you mention at once.

This type of contest is obviosuly highly launch dependent and tracking the positions of the cars during launch and during wheel spin will absolutely introduce more inaccuracies in simulation than in getting a 1/4 mi time. I found the 60 foot times varied (across the pack) from about 1.8 - 2.1 s.
  • At about 3 seconds the average position of the pack is about at 100ft at this time there will be a spread of distances covered by the cars of about 90-110 ft. Given that exactly one car length ~15 ft is required for said "cock block" you could just start to see the fastest CB the slowest at around the 100 ft mark.
  • At ~3.75 seconds the average position of the pack is ~150 ft. Here the total gap opens up to 145-167 ft or about 1.5 car lengths between the fastest and slowest. More CBs are now possible.
  • At ~4.25 seconds the average distance of the pack is ~200ft. The distance spread opens up to 185-212 ft or just about 2 car lengths.
(Don't acribe any precision to the third digits of the spreads above (i.e. 212 feet could EASILY be 218 or hell maybe even 200, there are many variables here. The idea was just to estimate the total spread in terms of number of car lengths, that should be fairly reresentative if all got eqivalently strong launches.)

Among this elite realm of of cars, especially all of the ones that launch really well from AWD, LC and or rear weight bias the M3 is not going to be able to do any CB-ing anywhere up to 200 ft. In this regard I agree with Bruce completely. It takes some more time and distance and it will start by being able to CB the RS4. It is simply always at or near the bottom on the distance vs. time charts at these short distances.

Hey Swamp, thanks! Bruce good job too.

Anyone know the distance between the start of the intersection and end for a 2 lane divided road? Just to put in the typical scenario for Cock Blocking.....

Just one more request....which cars can Cock Block an M3?
  • Stock 335I
  • WRX STI
  • Pontiac G8 (fast one)
  • Challenger SRT8
  • Cherokee SRT8
  • Golf GTI
  • New Acura TL
We just need to ensure Cocks in M3 know who to pick a fight with.

Thanks for your indulegence Swamp.
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      02-24-2009, 06:10 PM   #35
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Swamp, this is great stuff. I always enjoy reading your technical posts here throughout the forum. How do you do all these calculations? You have a program or do you use basic excel (macro) type analysis?
After screwing around writing some of my own spreadsheets and integrators I settled on CarTest. It isn't perfect and it certainly is subject to the #1 law of simulation - garbage in garbage out. Nonetheless I feel it is pretty well validated for a variety of questions we like to ask about cars.
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      02-24-2009, 06:12 PM   #36
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Hey Swamp, thanks! Bruce good job too.

Anyone know the distance between the start of the intersection and end for a 2 lane divided road? Just to put in the typical scenario for Cock Blocking.....

Just one more request....which cars can Cock Block an M3?
  • Stock 335I
  • WRX STI
  • Pontiac G8 (fast one)
  • Challenger SRT8
  • Cherokee SRT8
  • Golf GTI
  • New Acura TL
We just need to ensure Cocks in M3 know who to pick a fight with.

Thanks for your indulegence Swamp.
$50 to screw with this list

Many of those won't be in the existing database and I not interested enough in them to spend the time.
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      02-24-2009, 06:26 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Just one more request....which cars can Cock Block an M3?
  • Stock 335I
  • WRX STI
  • Pontiac G8 (fast one)
  • Challenger SRT8
  • Cherokee SRT8
  • Golf GTI
  • New Acura TL
We just need to ensure Cocks in M3 know who to pick a fight with.
One car you can rule out is a stock GTI, even a Mk5, it's fwd and the traction is probably worse than the M3. I take it the Acura TL is an awd 300hp model, if so then it might need to be add it to your list of yes models along with the WRX STI, Cherokee SRT8 for definite.

The only two I know little about is the G8 and Challenger, as both are rwd and the G8 is basically a Holden I doubt either will beat the M3 off the line.

That leaves the 335i, well if anyone believes it stands a chance then that will confirm that the S4, TT-RS and Cayman/Boxster S will too and I would say the TT-S could possibly be added to the list.

P.S.
Since you adding cars to the list, may I include some others
  • Cayenne Turbo and Turbo S
  • ML AMG63
  • 550xi
  • X6 x-drive50 (maybe)
  • EVO X


P.S.

Swamp,

Great write up, I always love the detail you go into which the rest seldom provide. One thing though, I take it that all the car's in you list all get near perfect launches, if so then my previous post becomes more valid as few of us M3 owners will regularly practise standing starts so the chances of getting a cracker start more than half the time is slim. The guys in the awd cars can still make a ham-fist of their starts and chances are they will still beat us over the first 60m.

Best stick to the rolling start to save the embarrassment.
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      02-24-2009, 06:52 PM   #38
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$50 to screw with this list

Many of those won't be in the existing database and I not interested enough in them to spend the time.

PLease??!!?? With sugar on top?

Can you do a combo of my list and Footies?? Please??

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      02-25-2009, 03:19 AM   #39
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hilarious thread.

thanks!

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      02-25-2009, 04:05 AM   #40
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hmm... wish I could get those 5 minutes back.
You were in remedial English if it took you 5 mins to read that.
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      02-25-2009, 06:18 AM   #41
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Great thread T Bone. Also, great work swamp for the calculations.

I think the m3 can cock block the 355hp c2s (not the 385). I kept up with my friends shifting at 6.5k rpm. If it were 100% dry, I think the m3 could edge the rs4 as well. In any wet/poor conditions, traction for the m3 is a real shame. I too would like to see if the m3 can cock block the new sti/evo or a cayman s.
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      02-25-2009, 07:51 AM   #42
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Quote:
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PLease??!!?? With sugar on top?

Can you do a combo of my list and Footies?? Please??
The software is what, 30 bucks?

Spend the money, and enjoy.
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      02-25-2009, 08:21 AM   #43
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PLease??!!?? With sugar on top?

Can you do a combo of my list and Footies?? Please??
Don't YOU have the CarTest software? I know you do because you posted screens shots or something over a year ago. That's how I heard about CarTest.
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      02-25-2009, 11:43 AM   #44
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not worth it, I let them go, not worth them pulling in my lane early and hitting my car

besides as much as I hate to admit it, until you change your tires the 60' times on the Z are not that great

Last edited by spearfisher; 02-25-2009 at 12:13 PM.
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