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      02-11-2009, 08:36 PM   #23
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I find that it is not calibrated to work well with r-compound tires at the track where the forces it is measuring are much higher. It did work well with street tires on stock wheels though.
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      02-13-2009, 04:16 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335 S View Post
Trailing throttle oversteer is still not caught by DSC.
I'd bet this is not correct. I have not had the chance to actually test this myself but I would bet it is caught. The car has lateral acceleraion, yaw and steering angle sensors. Picking up this condition would be straight forward.

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Originally Posted by 335 S View Post
Isn't DSC part of the M Mode package? MDM is absolutely key to the experience.
No, your terms and understanding are both wrong. Having the DSC setting of M Dynamic Mode (MDM) in the US requires the so called "M Drive" option.
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      02-13-2009, 09:16 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by arr0gant View Post
God you guys crack me up. My point was that if you get used to driving it with aids on, then take them off, you can forget they're off. Then when you expect them to save you, they're not there.

On the "other" hand, if you turn them off every time you drive, you know they're not there to save you, so you're always more careful. Has no one experienced this?

Anyhow, I used to turn them off "sometimes." Then one time, I turned MDM/TC off and after about 30 minutes of cruzing, I FORGOT I had turned it off. When I expected MDM to kick in, I was halfway through A spin...and Did 180 and gained control of the car. Luckily nothing was there to hit....so be careful and mindful if/when you disable MDM/TC.
I have not experienced this. I typically drive with MDM or DSC OFF, and sure I forget sometimes. But it doesn't ever change the way I drive or react. That is MY point. I NEVER assume that even DSC ON will ever save the car, so I drive and react accordingly. As if nothing was there. That's how everyone should drive IMHO. To think that you are somehow "safe" and can just drive wild, because DSC ON will save you, is a bad thing. It may or it may not. It's just better to focus on driving and being alert all the time.
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      02-13-2009, 09:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by argonboy View Post
You're worried about MDM being too intrusive (which I belive it's not, if you follow the idea lines at a track), but if you're not going to have it you might find yourself in the situation when you want the safety net (due to weather let's say) but you'll only have the full DSC which will become intrusive.

At the Intensive M School (European version) we drove quite hard on the Salzburgring track in rain with DSC fully on and unless you approached the turn wrong DSC would not even intervene. I know everyone will flame that DSC is too intrusive. DSC is intrusive when you provide EXTRA INPUTS. When you drive hard but SMOOTH it is not.
You just sort of contradicted yourself there, between the 1st and 2nd paragraph.

Not sure how your driving was, but traction/stability control will kick in when driving hard at the track. It's not just about being smooth, but about the limits the system has for lateral acceleration, etc. in the various modes - DSC ON, MDM, and DSC OFF. The threshold is quite low with DSC ON for stability control. Same for traction control - though I wouldn't mind having them as separate functions. I may want to turn off stability control and leave traction control on.
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      02-13-2009, 10:08 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbo73 View Post
You just sort of contradicted yourself there, between the 1st and 2nd paragraph.

Not sure how your driving was, but traction/stability control will kick in when driving hard at the track. It's not just about being smooth, but about the limits the system has for lateral acceleration, etc. in the various modes - DSC ON, MDM, and DSC OFF. The threshold is quite low with DSC ON for stability control. Same for traction control - though I wouldn't mind having them as separate functions. I may want to turn off stability control and leave traction control on.
I wonder if this is a street tire vs. R-comp tire issue. I used to track my e46 with R-comps and very rarely encountered DSC intrusion. As a matter of fact, it only intruded in one corner on one track where it slowed me down. Every other instance it usually tapped a front brake to prevent trailing throttle oversteer.

Most street tires require higher slip angles to generate maximum cornering than good R-comps do. I suspect that cornering at the limits of street tires, might cause DSC intervention sooner than might happen with purpose built tires.
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      02-13-2009, 10:45 AM   #28
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Without turning off DSC there is no way to steer with throttle. MDM allows you to "drive" the car for real without deactivating DSC completely. I use it alot (75-80%). I nearly never drive with DSC completely deactivated. The only times I would ever drive without MDM or full-DSC would be when using LC or on a skid pad. Maybe MDM is too intrusive for some people but if you aren't some kind of professional driver I think it can be useful.
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      02-13-2009, 05:47 PM   #29
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Is the only way to order MDM, to get the tech pck? I would like to be able to order MDM without EDC as I plan on replacing the suspension. If you must order the tech pck to get MDM, then that would mean you must have EDC with MDM. That would be unfortunate if true.
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      02-13-2009, 06:02 PM   #30
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It completely depends on your driving experience. Anywhere above intermediate track driving experience level, you'll hate it and won't need it. Up to that point, it's wonderful.
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      02-13-2009, 08:39 PM   #31
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I find MDM too intrusive when driving on normal dry surfaces. Unfortunately, it lets you get away with some really bad inputs and adds an artificial feel to the experience. It's a much different car, as you'd expect with 400+ hp and neutral handling, with DSC off. In this mode the car does what you make it do and is very catchable at the limit.
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      02-13-2009, 09:17 PM   #32
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For street driving I love MDM and DSC. I owned and raced a lot of high performance cars with tight limited slips, wide tires and high torque. When the tires get slightly worn and you're driving on new, light rain after a dry period, these cars will snap at you so fast it'll make your head spin. One of my friends was nationally ranked in the Formula Ford spun his Mustang driving straight on I-635 in Dallas in the rain.

The weekend after I put my Auburn limited slip in my 5.0, the car snapped sideways 45-degrees while I was driving straight and accelerating slightly in fifth gear, despite having almost half the tread left. I know of two teen girls killed in a classic 'vette driving straight at relatively low speed on a country road in Jacksonville, FL, in the rain. They weren't speeding, but just didn't know how to handle the car.

You may think that you can handle it, but when a car goes from tracking straight to snapping sideways at 60 mph in traffic it's a BIG handful. The tighter the limited slip the faster the snap and bigger handful of trouble you'll have. BMW is able to give us more performance and tighter limited slip by building in these safety features. I recommend using them all of the time on the street. On track days, there'll be times you may want it off and other times that you may want MDM on, but that's a totally different situation.

Dave
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      02-13-2009, 09:30 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
You may think that you can handle it, but when a car goes from tracking straight to snapping sideways at 60 mph in traffic it's a BIG handful. The tighter the limited slip the faster the snap and bigger handful of trouble you'll have. BMW is able to give us more performance and tighter limited slip by building in these safety features. I recommend using them all of the time on the street. On track days, there'll be times you may want it off and other times that you may want MDM on, but that's a totally different situation.

Dave
Fully agree!
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      02-13-2009, 10:00 PM   #34
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How the hell do you forget when its on/off? lol There's a symbol on the dash that displays it...
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      02-14-2009, 12:15 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
You may think that you can handle it, but when a car goes from tracking straight to snapping sideways at 60 mph in traffic it's a BIG handful. The tighter the limited slip the faster the snap and bigger handful of trouble you'll have. BMW is able to give us more performance and tighter limited slip by building in these safety features. I recommend using them all of the time on the street. On track days, there'll be times you may want it off and other times that you may want MDM on, but that's a totally different situation.

Dave
I'd agree that handling a snap oversteer situation is not fun. My other fun car has no stability aids, oversteers naturally and has a nasty bump steer issue which just exacerbates this nature (got a few scary turn one memories). But, that's just not the nature I've experienced with this M3 or my previous M. They've been very forgiving and predictable.
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      02-15-2009, 12:25 AM   #36
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MDM is like cheating. It's uttery amazing. Being able to slide the car in complete control is awesome. You are cheating yourself out of a lot of fun if you do not opt for it. It's one of the best things about the car.
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      02-15-2009, 05:18 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo58 View Post
MDM is like cheating. It's uttery amazing. Being able to slide the car in complete control is awesome. You are cheating yourself out of a lot of fun if you do not opt for it. It's one of the best things about the car.
MDM doesn't make you slide or 'in control', just about 3 feet sideways(sometimes maybe a 90 degrees depends on the surface and tyres) and then it cuts it off. I've tested it so many times. Just put DSC totally off to enjoy slides like this, me a few months ago:

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      02-15-2009, 05:32 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
MDM doesn't make you slide or 'in control', just about 3 feet sideways(sometimes maybe a 90 degrees depends on the surface and tyres) and then it cuts it off. I've tested it so many times. Just put DSC totally off to enjoy slides like this, me a few months ago:

Can't agree more, but then we are talking about moderate speeds (30mph or so) and a closed track where the most you will hit is the odd cone. DSC and MDM have there place and it's on the road with all the other shit you have to deal with. I like yourself can control a car but I would class it as irresponsible to turn it completely off and fool around on the public road.
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      02-15-2009, 05:47 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Can't agree more, but then we are talking about moderate speeds (30mph or so) and a closed track where the most you will hit is the odd cone. DSC and MDM have there place and it's on the road with all the other shit you have to deal with. I like yourself can control a car but I would class it as irresponsible to turn it completely off and fool around on the public road.
Agreed but I do that sometimes on a public road as well:Sundaymorning 9.30 a bit rainy, almost no traffic. Or late at night, some small roundabouts and other scandinavian flick things(though the M is a bit heavy and quite a handful somtimes)

But only when traffic allows it off course.And never with the wife and kids....ok sometimes with my wife, she loves rollercoaster rides
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      02-15-2009, 06:33 AM   #40
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My wife also likes rides but not the kind on a rollercoaster or in a car. Just wish she would involve me in them.
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      02-15-2009, 12:10 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo58 View Post
MDM is like cheating. It's uttery amazing. Being able to slide the car in complete control is awesome. You are cheating yourself out of a lot of fun if you do not opt for it. It's one of the best things about the car.
Drive a GT-R at 9/10ths at the track and you'll know what the work cheating really means

(unless you are in the finance/banking industry)
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      02-15-2009, 08:22 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03SG///M3 View Post
Is the only way to order MDM, to get the tech pck? I would like to be able to order MDM without EDC as I plan on replacing the suspension. If you must order the tech pck to get MDM, then that would mean you must have EDC with MDM. That would be unfortunate if true.

I confirmed that you must get the tech package to get MDM. Seems you can separate them in Europe but not in the US. (I think, my German is a little rusty, I checked the BMW GMBH website for this info.) This bundling does upset me, I didn't really want the iDrive, nav... but after all of the feedback here I wanted it in the car. It's noteworthy that although some say they don't use it, no one said that the M Dynamic Mode did not work as intended.

Perhaps someone really clever can figure out how to get MDM to work with aftermarket firmware without the tech package. It's unlikely that it requires any more hardware as all of the sensors and actuators are already there for the stock DSC. I was not willing to take that chance, so in the end I ordered the tech package. Hopefully, I'll grow to like iDrive.

As for the electronic damper control, I suspect that this is a worthwhile feature. If my understanding is correct, it is not just changing the valving staticly but changes the damping millisecond by millisecond. You might want to integrate it into your suspension upgrade if you can.

Thanks for everyone's feedback, it was very helpful. It was the first thread I started on M3post and I feel welcomed.
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      02-15-2009, 11:36 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by tbucella View Post
Hopefully, I'll grow to like iDrive.
.
I've got an '09 coupe with the new iDrive and find it very intuitive. There are now what I call "jump buttons" that take you straight to Nav or CD or Radio or Menu so your iDrive pushes and turns are greatly reduced. You can also preset the buttons under the radio to just about anything.

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      02-15-2009, 11:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
For street driving I love MDM and DSC. I owned and raced a lot of high performance cars with tight limited slips, wide tires and high torque. When the tires get slightly worn and you're driving on new, light rain after a dry period, these cars will snap at you so fast it'll make your head spin. One of my friends was nationally ranked in the Formula Ford spun his Mustang driving straight on I-635 in Dallas in the rain.

The weekend after I put my Auburn limited slip in my 5.0, the car snapped sideways 45-degrees while I was driving straight and accelerating slightly in fifth gear, despite having almost half the tread left. I know of two teen girls killed in a classic 'vette driving straight at relatively low speed on a country road in Jacksonville, FL, in the rain. They weren't speeding, but just didn't know how to handle the car.

You may think that you can handle it, but when a car goes from tracking straight to snapping sideways at 60 mph in traffic it's a BIG handful. The tighter the limited slip the faster the snap and bigger handful of trouble you'll have. BMW is able to give us more performance and tighter limited slip by building in these safety features. I recommend using them all of the time on the street. On track days, there'll be times you may want it off and other times that you may want MDM on, but that's a totally different situation.

Dave
Not my experience with the M3 at all. What cars did you race? I also raced SCCA FF1600/FF2000. Anyone can screw up..M3 is not jumpy like a modified Stang, Vette, etc. It's easy/predictable to drive and well balanced. You have to try pretty hard to get it to do dumb things on the street/highway, even with DSC OFF.
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