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      02-05-2009, 02:35 AM   #23
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Does it work with EDC?
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      02-05-2009, 11:56 AM   #24
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Thanks for keeping us updated.
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      02-05-2009, 03:18 PM   #25
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Did the stock M3 tested against the Motons at Sebring have EDC? By the way sweet M3... I love the wheels too.
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      02-06-2009, 05:19 AM   #26
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interesting
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      02-06-2009, 10:42 PM   #27
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DAMN!!! $4,700!!
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      02-07-2009, 01:04 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesC View Post
Sways - waiting... We have a front from the 335 (Hotchkis), but the rear is a bit bigger on the M.
Iím curious why you would put on 500 lb/in front bar as the stock is 240 lb/in. FWIW, all e9x chassis 3 series bars are interchangeable front and rear so H&R for a 335i and others are all identical fitment.

Orb
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      02-09-2009, 07:12 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Does it work with EDC?
You must disable the Factory EDC in order to work the Moton. Both Rebound and Compression are manually adjustable.

James, correct me if I'm wrong!
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      02-13-2009, 01:18 AM   #30
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Anymore news on these?
If we don't want the full track kit and just the camber plates, is that that possible? Im afraid the track kit might be to aggressive for street? I don't want to swap springs between daily driving and track.

Great looking set up.
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      02-13-2009, 11:01 AM   #31
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Sorry for the delay - lots going on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Does it work with EDC?
Simon was right. You can istall them on an EDC car, but you will remove the in-car adjustability. They are manually adjustable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 03SG///M3 View Post
Did the stock M3 tested against the Motons at Sebring have EDC? By the way sweet M3... I love the wheels too.
No - it was the same car, tested in back to back sessions for a more accurate result. A non-EDC car seems to ride/perform about like an EDC car in the stiffer position in my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb View Post
Iím curious why you would put on 500 lb/in front bar as the stock is 240 lb/in. FWIW, all e9x chassis 3 series bars are interchangeable front and rear so H&R for a 335i and others are all identical fitment.
Not following. But the rear M3 bar is actually a bit stiffer than even an aftermarket 335 bar. We held them up a while ago and I thought there was a geometry difference in the rear as well, but I don't remember.

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Originally Posted by STALKER View Post
Anymore news on these?
If we don't want the full track kit and just the camber plates, is that that possible? Im afraid the track kit might be to aggressive for street? I don't want to swap springs between daily driving and track.
After the mods we made, the design is now finalized and parts are on order. Delivery will be end of March and I will have 10 sets initially with a few already spoken for.

There is no reason in the world to swap springs for a street/track car - that is the magic of having a really high-end damper that can make a moderate rate feel soft on the street or stiff enough for real track use. The level of performance we are at is really quite high - I have a set going to a pure track car in which we will bump spring rates by about 25% which is not wildly significant.

Additionally, after some discussion, a track kit is not on the horizon. We will be able to add camber plates to the normal kit - street plates are coming and race plates are now available. We will also be able to add race springs at different rates.

On our car, I am honestly not going to add the camber plates. I don't see a big need for more camber now that the car has enough platform to keep it from rolling on the outside edge of the tires. Additionally, I am happy with the performance and more so very pleased with the level of NVH and I am not going to mess with that. I have made enough of my street cars annoying to drive by harshening the ride for better performance. If I'm happy where we are with this car, why bother?
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      02-13-2009, 11:22 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesC View Post
... There is no reason in the world to swap springs for a street/track car - that is the magic of having a really high-end damper that can make a moderate rate feel soft on the street or stiff enough for real track use. The level of performance we are at is really quite high - I have a set going to a pure track car in which we will bump spring rates by about 25% which is not wildly significant.

... On our car, I am honestly not going to add the camber plates. I don't see a big need for more camber now that the car has enough platform to keep it from rolling on the outside edge of the tires. Additionally, I am happy with the performance and more so very pleased with the level of NVH and I am not going to mess with that. I have made enough of my street cars annoying to drive by harshening the ride for better performance. If I'm happy where we are with this car, why bother?
+ a million. Especially that last paragraph.
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      02-13-2009, 11:32 AM   #33
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Sweet.

James, what size tires and rims do recommend?

Im sold on the Motons, but would like to add street camber plates. I almost got a set for my e46 M3, but the old kits needed high spring rates and low ride heights to get the most out of them. Im very happy you guys have this solution now. This will be the kit to have for the e9X M3!!
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      02-13-2009, 11:48 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
+ a million. Especially that last paragraph.
I forgot to mention - 2 of my daily drivers do have solid mounts, one has Motons the other has JRZs, and spring rates are close to racing rates - I do place a high value on performance and I don't consider the E92 in any way watered down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STALKER View Post
Sweet.

James, what size tires and rims do recommend?

Im sold on the Motons, but would like to add street camber plates. I almost got a set for my e46 M3, but the old kits needed high spring rates and low ride heights to get the most out of them. Im very happy you guys have this solution now. This will be the kit to have for the e9X M3!!
Tire size - totally up to you. I am running 18x9.5 wheels all around with 275/35 tires for the track. Street are 20x9.5/10.5 with 265/295 - I like bigger street fitments I guess (every time I buy a new ride...)
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      02-13-2009, 12:10 PM   #35
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Hi James,

It looks like the front springs are progressive rate due to the coil design. Can you confirm?

From a percentage perspective, how much stiffer are the spring rates front/rear compared to stock?

What are the recommended lowering heights for front and rear for this kit?

Is the dampener a monotube design or twin tube?

Due to the high cost (almost $5k), how does this set compare to the Moton clubsport (which have separate reservoirs) and cost almost the same.

Thanks,

Steve
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      02-13-2009, 12:49 PM   #36
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The fronts look progressive, but I thinik it is just the taper wind. The closer coils don't bind even during track use, so I think that makes them linear?

Spring rates - no one seems to state spring rates. In farct, I wanted a stiffer rear spring while we were testing and called H&R to see if theirs would work and they wouldn't tell me - nevermind that it is a linear spring and I could put it on a rate tester and find out in a matter of minutes. My rough estimation is that we are about 30% stiffer than stock, but the proof is in the pudding. Roll went from maybe 5-6 degrees to about 3-4 degrees on the track which is very much in the proper range. Stiffness on the street is similar to stock suspension, maybe a tick more.

Ride heights - we set our car at about 1" lower than stock height for testing. I lowered it another 1/2" after testing for cosmetics. One of the changes I requested was a shorter housing so we could lower it a little more, but the kit won't give a completely dumped look and I don't think the E92 car functions properly way off of stock height - doesn't take very long until the geometry gets pretty out of whack and the rear roll center is completely messed up.

Design is a twin tube. There has been a lot of marketing around the catchword "monotube" recently, oddly enough most of it coming from a company that only makes a...monotube. It actually takes a bit more of investment in parts to offer both styles in your product line (all Moton reservoir dampers are monotube), but twin tube was considedred proper for this application and Moton designed all new internals to make it work instead of relying on already developed, already stocked parts. In a high pressure damper, running monotube kind of limits the internal space for the gas over fluid design. Additionally, it makes servicing the damper more painful. As a side note, few people would look down their nose on the new Ohlins TTX line of twin tube dampers with many applications over 5 figures - which also happens to be their latest and greatest design, not ain iteration of what they have been doing for years. In summary there are lots of ways to skin a cat, and monotube versus twin-tube is a point of reference, not a performance specification.

Comparison to clubsport... They are kind of different. Clubsports are a damper-only option, will be packaged with a linear race spring (2.25" typically versus stock diameter) and will require a camber plate in the front. CS are remote reservoir so you also need to route and mount the cans. CS give you the ability to adjust canister pressure or responsibility to maintain can pressure depending on how you look at it, and if you have a N2 tank, regulator, and shock tool. Can pressure gives you some tuning options/advantages, but it also adds some hassle and the whole CS setup will add NVH. The Street Sport (SS) is a bolt-on deal, proper spring rates for 95% of users included in a kit that retains front strut mounts. And actually, due to the development poured in this damper line, I actually think they have a better baseline and perform better on the car than the CS (I am referencing experience with CS on E36 and E46 chassis cars - I have not run them on E92).
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      02-13-2009, 05:33 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesC View Post
The fronts look progressive, but I thinik it is just the taper wind. The closer coils don't bind even during track use, so I think that makes them linear?

Spring rates - no one seems to state spring rates. In farct, I wanted a stiffer rear spring while we were testing and called H&R to see if theirs would work and they wouldn't tell me - nevermind that it is a linear spring and I could put it on a rate tester and find out in a matter of minutes. My rough estimation is that we are about 30% stiffer than stock, but the proof is in the pudding. Roll went from maybe 5-6 degrees to about 3-4 degrees on the track which is very much in the proper range. Stiffness on the street is similar to stock suspension, maybe a tick more.

Ride heights - we set our car at about 1" lower than stock height for testing. I lowered it another 1/2" after testing for cosmetics. One of the changes I requested was a shorter housing so we could lower it a little more, but the kit won't give a completely dumped look and I don't think the E92 car functions properly way off of stock height - doesn't take very long until the geometry gets pretty out of whack and the rear roll center is completely messed up.

Design is a twin tube. There has been a lot of marketing around the catchword "monotube" recently, oddly enough most of it coming from a company that only makes a...monotube. It actually takes a bit more of investment in parts to offer both styles in your product line (all Moton reservoir dampers are monotube), but twin tube was considedred proper for this application and Moton designed all new internals to make it work instead of relying on already developed, already stocked parts. In a high pressure damper, running monotube kind of limits the internal space for the gas over fluid design. Additionally, it makes servicing the damper more painful. As a side note, few people would look down their nose on the new Ohlins TTX line of twin tube dampers with many applications over 5 figures - which also happens to be their latest and greatest design, not ain iteration of what they have been doing for years. In summary there are lots of ways to skin a cat, and monotube versus twin-tube is a point of reference, not a performance specification.

Comparison to clubsport... They are kind of different. Clubsports are a damper-only option, will be packaged with a linear race spring (2.25" typically versus stock diameter) and will require a camber plate in the front. CS are remote reservoir so you also need to route and mount the cans. CS give you the ability to adjust canister pressure or responsibility to maintain can pressure depending on how you look at it, and if you have a N2 tank, regulator, and shock tool. Can pressure gives you some tuning options/advantages, but it also adds some hassle and the whole CS setup will add NVH. The Street Sport (SS) is a bolt-on deal, proper spring rates for 95% of users included in a kit that retains front strut mounts. And actually, due to the development poured in this damper line, I actually think they have a better baseline and perform better on the car than the CS (I am referencing experience with CS on E36 and E46 chassis cars - I have not run them on E92).

Thanks. What is "NVH" when you refer to it?
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      02-13-2009, 05:35 PM   #38
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Noise, Vibration, Harshness
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      02-18-2009, 09:42 AM   #39
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Quote:
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Noise, Vibration, Harshness
Thank you.
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      02-19-2009, 07:59 PM   #40
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Wow, Those Motons looks sick! Where can I get come more info on them?
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E92 M3 ZCP- AW/FR w/Extended Leather) Packages: ZCP, 6MT, Fully Loaded
E46 M3 - AW/IR 6 Spd, Fully Loaded. 19'' BBS LM DBK, V-CSL C/F Bmpr, Botld, Diff, V-CSL Custum IR-CF Center Counsel, V-GTR Hood, Dixis Ti 76mm, Meisterschaft Ti Sec. 1&2, EvoSport Headers, CAI, D/A Chip, tck d/a, Alcantera Headliner with Imola Red Sttitching....
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      02-19-2009, 09:18 PM   #41
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Quote:
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Wow, Those Motons looks sick! Where can I get come more info on them?
bimmerworld.com
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      02-19-2009, 11:17 PM   #42
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bimmerworld.com
Let me guess...you have a set on order? Get the PF goodness as well
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      02-20-2009, 05:33 PM   #43
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More specifically - http://store.bimmerworld.com/Product1156
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      02-20-2009, 08:21 PM   #44
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So why the difference in price in those and say the TCklines?

TCKE92M3SD E92 M3 Smart Design Coilover $2,418.50

Not trying to be a Nay sayer just trying to understand the difference.
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