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      06-06-2009, 09:52 PM   #155
elp_jc
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Well, if a gear change doesn't grind at low rpm but do at high, it's probably NOT the tranny; it's the CLUTCH. I've heard this happens on Corvettes too; it has to do with high centrifugal forces not letting the clutch disengage completely, but don't know exactly what's the problem. It'd be interesting to hear from an expert.

Slowing down the shifting eliminates the problem (as rpm drop), but that's probably not what most here want to hear. Subscribed.

Last edited by elp_jc; 06-06-2009 at 10:54 PM.
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      06-06-2009, 10:50 PM   #156
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I'm in sign me up. It is a pain. I grind too..
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      06-07-2009, 07:45 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Hah, just order one without it...

I think it's pretty rare. We've got a sizeable list, but given the size of the forum that's really pretty small numbers. The odds are with you.

Besides the UUC, I highly recommend the Dinan Stage I spring set. It's not just springs, but different spring hats and bump stops specific to the new springs. You get a small drop, but the handling improves nicely without losing suspension travel and still retaining a nice street ride quality.

Dave
You mean skip the manual and go for the DCT? NO WAY!! hahaha.....Having a manual transmission makes a world of difference for me.

Also, the Dinan springs are cool, but they don't look nearly as aggressive as the RD's. I've seen pics with the RD's and they drop the car perfectly.

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I have the issue, and I had it with my 08 M3 as well.
What? You gave up your '08 M3 and went with an '09? Did you give it up specifically because of the clutch/tranny issue? Why would you still have the same issue with the '09?

Sorry, I'm just so confused.....
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      06-07-2009, 09:06 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nawaaz View Post
...

Also, the Dinan springs are cool, but they don't look nearly as aggressive as the RD's. I've seen pics with the RD's and they drop the car perfectly. ...
There are lots of choices if all you're after is drop. If you want a full suspension with spring rates that match the shocks, while maintaining suspension travel and improving handling, then look to Dinan.

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      06-07-2009, 09:08 AM   #159
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You mean skip the manual and go for the DCT? NO WAY!! hahaha.....Having a manual transmission makes a world of difference for me.
You can say that again!! We're nitpicking here. If Susan Boyle is DCT () and Megan Fox 6MT, we're talking Jennifer Aniston bad... which is not bad at all. And yes, I know DCT shifts quicker, but who cares; it takes away all the fun and involvement. I'll take our imperfect manual tranny any day of the week. Good day folks.
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      06-07-2009, 09:48 AM   #160
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...And yes, I know DCT shifts quicker, but who cares; it takes away all the fun and involvement. ...
I too prefer my 6MT for day-to-day driving, but the DCT is incredible fun on the track. You gain several mph on every straight, thanks to the lightening quick shifts.

Oh, one thing that the DCT has that I miss on the 6MT is a shift light. I got to where I never looked at the tach on the DCT because I could see the shift light in my peripheral vision. Occasionally I'd glance down when downshifting from 7th to 2d or 3d to be sure that I got down to the right gear, but never needed to look down when upshifting.

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      06-07-2009, 10:15 AM   #161
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but the DCT is incredible fun on the track. You gain several mph on every straight, thanks to the lightening quick shifts.
I have no doubt man, and am fully aware the great majority of sports/exotic cars are sold with auto-manual trannies. In fact, 97% of Ferraris made are F1 now, and it was reported the F430 successor won't have a manual anymore , raising that percentage to 100%. But my point is who tracks those cars competitively? I think the reality is people are getting so damn lazy that they don't even want to learn how to drive a manual properly anymore. Or a stick makes it too inconvenient to text while driving. I don't know. I just hope manuals don't disappear, because I have no reason to buy a car like this with DCT, to be honest. Hopefully Porsche will still make manuals when I'm done with my M; that's my next (and probably last) such car. Take care buddy.
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      06-07-2009, 10:35 AM   #162
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Lots of people track M3s, Ferraris, Porsches, etc. competitively and more and more are auto-manuals. Look around this Forum and you'll see lots of track discussions.

Like you, I'm afraid that manual transmissions will be impossible to find on performance cars in the near future. Normally aspirated V8s may get really hard to find also. Those two are small reasons for me going with the M3.

As for Porsche being a logical move up from an M3, I covet the GT3, but not much else in their line. They make fine cars, but their supremacy is gone in most price categories. I love going to Porsche club events and winning in a non-Porsche car... always great fun.

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      06-07-2009, 10:59 AM   #163
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Normally aspirated V8s may get really hard to find also. Those two are small reasons for me going with the M3.
That was exactly what I decided on the M3; it was now or never.

Quote:
As for Porsche being a logical move up from an M3, I covet the GT3, but not much else in their line.
I actually don't consider the Porsche a move 'up', to be honest; just a lateral one. Surprisingly, the 911 didn't 'speak' to me man. The only Porsche I really like how it drives is the Cayman S, but it's definitely uglier than a 911. I could have bought a heavily loaded CS (they can get to $90K ) for the same money as the M3, but passed; the M3 is a much better value, not to mention I'm partial to NA V8s, and at $15K+ below MSRP, it was now or never. But the CS drives beautifully too, and the H6 music behind your ears is only slightly below the M3s in front. What I liked about the CS is that the driving position was perfect: seats, steering wheel, shift knob, pedals, clutch... everything. And steering feel, clutch feel/actuation, shifter, etc. was just about perfect too. I was driving it like a pro since the moment I left the dealership, like if I had owned it for years; amazing. But it's too small, impractical with just 2 seats and hardly any luggage space, butt ugly, and no dealer around. It's going to make more sense once I'm an empty nester. The M3 was the right car right now for many reasons, and couldn't be happier with it. Take care, and thanks for the great conversation.
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      06-07-2009, 02:29 PM   #164
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You can sign me up also. 2nd def grind sometimes.
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      06-07-2009, 07:00 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
I have no doubt man, and am fully aware the great majority of sports/exotic cars are sold with auto-manual trannies. In fact, 97% of Ferraris made are F1 now, and it was reported the F430 successor won't have a manual anymore , raising that percentage to 100%. But my point is who tracks those cars competitively? I think the reality is people are getting so damn lazy that they don't even want to learn how to drive a manual properly anymore. Or a stick makes it too inconvenient to text while driving. I don't know. I just hope manuals don't disappear, because I have no reason to buy a car like this with DCT, to be honest. Hopefully Porsche will still make manuals when I'm done with my M; that's my next (and probably last) such car. Take care buddy.
....And that's why the world is getting FATTER and LAZIER! Stupid Auto-manuals! I like stick.....It turns the ladies ON.
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      06-11-2009, 12:19 AM   #166
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Hey guys... I'm new to the M3 (Just bought mine on Saturday, '08 w/ 9K miles on it)...

1st... I race cars... have 10 National Championships... and grew up being called 'Hole Shot' or 'Clutch'.. I shift extremely fast, and very smooth!...

But... this car has the 1-2 grind... that is for sure... however... this is what I modified to cure it... after about 10 trial and error ones... until I perfected it, I hope this helps... and it is a bit disappointing... but I think this might work for 'many' of you. (It did for me)

You have to just 'wait' an extra tenth of a second before pulling the shift lever from 1 to 2. In my back to back testing... what I realized it to be... is from 1 to 2... you can pull the gearshift, back towards 2nd gear before the clutch has 'fully' engaged to the floor (i mean fully 'smack/loud TAP' from clutch pedal 'smacking' the floor board) and it just hasn't had the time to disengage fully, allowing 2nd gear to be 'prepared' for the shift. (if you 'start' your pull BEFORE the Clutch Pedal is ALL THE WAY down... it will grind)

I now... shift at 8,400 with absolutely no problems... just making sure my left foot is ahead of my right hand. Which is 'somewhat' BS... because you can pound 2 to the 3 or 3 to 4 as FAST as you want... just a delay slightly built into this unit for the 1-2 throw... I'm sure things are spinning very fast in there.

So again... if you just consciously make sure you are 'throwing' your clutch foot first... and delaying your pull from 1 to 2 just ever so slightly... you will still be able to 'pull' the 1 - 2 shift as fast as you like with NO Grind!

I enjoyed reading these 10 pages... confirming what many are experiencing... and hopefully this information may help some of you.

Obviously some transmissions can be bad, or have issues... but seeing how I was experiencing the same thing... and able to adjust accordingly.. this may help some of you too.

Dave
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      06-23-2009, 05:34 PM   #167
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It's happened to me once or twice. The first time was a shock as it was a definite grind that stop my upshift. But as the poster above stated, by slowing down the 1-2 upshift just a tad, it seems okay.
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      06-23-2009, 06:54 PM   #168
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As an update. I'm taking my car in for the 2nd free oil change (~15k) next thursday to Sterling BMW in Newport Beach, CA. I've given the dealership a heads up about the problem... though the SA said he's never heard of the issue. However, it appears that a mechanic who works at the dealership vists this forum. I've sent him a PM asking him to look take a look at this thread and help me resolve this issue. Will keep you all informed of what, if anything, comes about as a result.
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      08-07-2009, 08:39 PM   #169
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scca forum.com did you mean hit the floorboard with the clutch then pull to second? Do you let off on the gas? If you don't let of the gas it'll redline. I don't understand. I get it 5 out of 10 time's. I thought i had it pinned but i didn't .. Wierd. Any way nice discussion...
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      08-07-2009, 08:46 PM   #170
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Hey man, I'm taking my car in tomorrow. I'm going to see if I can replicate the grinding to my sa
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      08-07-2009, 09:23 PM   #171
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Even if you show him. He's going to say your driving it wreckless.. You can't actual floor it and tell him watch this. Powershifting to second ? He'll write you up. I don't have a problem driving it daily. It's good enough. It's just when you get on it and want to powershift from 1st to 2nd. But it did happen once or twice were i engaged the clutch and shifted to fourth and it grinded for a second. Also once when I was driving and shifted to fourth at 5k and i pulled on it really hard because i was mad about something. It felt like it went to fourth but slid a littlle further on the shift and it grinded but i let go and it was ok...Couldn't do it again. I just feel it should be able to powershift. And if it does not. Does the time's that bmw postwith or without powershifting??
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      08-07-2009, 10:34 PM   #172
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Mine's quite obvious now. He's a cool guy..I'll let you know how it goes.
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      08-07-2009, 11:05 PM   #173
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I had a MT loaner for a month before my DCT arrived - coming from an RS4 MT that always shifted lightning quick with no grind from 1st to 2nd, I was very disappointed with the M3 MT box - it happened to me many times. As others have posted, you have to sacrifice a faster shift time to get a smooth change.

At least our DCT flaws can be fixed by software
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      08-08-2009, 12:48 PM   #174
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I think the grinding is because the manual M3 has a dual disc clutch which is a more tricky design than a single disc. Yes I am implying that the ZF design might have slighlty missed on target. But to understand it does not hurt to look first at how this should work ideally :

1. You press the clutch pedal
2. Assuming there are no hydraulic problems the fork pushes the release bearing the right distance with pushes on the diaphragm spring.
3. The diaphragm spring releases pressure on the pressure plate
4. The double discs are no longer pushed against each other and between the pressure plate and the flywheel. Remember that the discs are connected to the gearbox input shaft and the the flywheel connects to the engine.
5. the engine and gear box input shaft are now free to turn a different speeds
6. as you move the shifter to 2nd the synchros in the gearbox slow down the clutch disc speed by mechanical friction
7. When the clutch discs shaft speed match the 2nd gear shaft speed the racks moves and you are in second
8. you release the clutch pedal to reconnect the clutch disc to the engine

What happens when there is a grinding is a failure to disengage due to one disc seizing to the flywheel or the other to the pressure plate (both connect to the engine)

1,2,3,4 are the same. At 5 however is where things go wrong

a. Because there are more moving parts in a double disc clutch the play and flexibility of each part adds up and must not be too much or the disc may become distorted which reduces the gap for free rotation of the two discs required for disengagement. The lateral runout on these disc should be no more than 0.5mm. This should be checked by a good mechanic

b. Another possibility is that although there may be sufficient play for the disc to turn freely when disengaged they have to slide back from the flywheel but they may be sticking on the gearbox input shaft. This is due to incorrect or insufficient grease or damaged spline profile on the disc hub

c. the disc facing material might be sticking because of oil or grease contamination. Too much grease on the splines.

a,b and c can all be verified by disasembling the clutch

There is no comparison with an Audi RS4 which has a single disc clutch. The M3 dual clutch will be more durable and can sustain more abuse because the friction surface is doubled but when not designed to perfection it can be prone to this occasional disengagement issue. Nothing comes for free.

Is the grinding damaging ? Yes it eats your synchros. So on one side you have a better clutch but now your gearbox wears out faster.

Is it bad engineering ? could be.

Last edited by oneginee; 08-08-2009 at 11:05 PM.
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      08-08-2009, 03:53 PM   #175
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I grind sometimes when trying to slam it to 2nd. I hate it when it happens. No problems in any other gear change.

My E46 grinds ocassionally on that shift too.
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      08-08-2009, 04:02 PM   #176
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Has anyone tried a different gearbox oil? Red Line? Did it make any difference?

Getting this fixed under warranty is going to be tough because you have to punish it to demonstrate the problem. I'll live with it but if a better oil made a difference I'd do it immediately.
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