BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
EclipsisNA
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-09-2009, 08:45 AM   #89
MMMorish
Just call me J.J. McClure
 
MMMorish's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 & C4 Corvette
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Toronto

Posts: 2,836
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by louie_perm View Post
It is clear to me from the feel of the 6MT, that the 1-2 shift--particularly at higher RPMs--must be more deliberate than other shifts. I use my fingertips, and I never push if the tranny resists. I put enough pressure on the shifter so that it goes when it's ready, and it's never resulted in a delayed shift--one where I lose momentum and/or have to worry about the rev match.
I agree. I've had the grind threes times and since then I've always been a bit more deliberate with my shifts, even pausing the extra half second between the two gears. Still, the fact that it's happened three times already is enough for me to call BMWNA.

Perhaps Mr Harris was right, maybe we're shifting to fast/hard into second gears
__________________
MODS: Meisterschaft GT Racing Exhaust / BMC Air Filter / UUC SSK & DSSR (Modded)/ RPI Scoops / Passport SRX Hardwired / Custom Wrap 3M Clearbra / 20% Tint / 50% Windshield Tint / Key Hole Delete / Matted Out Accessories / VRS Type II Diffuser / Smoked Reflectors / Euphoria 6K LED Interior Lights / Rear Fog Light Mod / 6000K HID's / 6500K LUX H8 Angel Eyes / RDash License Plate LED Kit / LED Xenon Reverse Lights
"M3 drivers have no friends"
MMMorish is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      05-09-2009, 08:50 AM   #90
MMMorish
Just call me J.J. McClure
 
MMMorish's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 & C4 Corvette
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Toronto

Posts: 2,836
iTrader: (5)

Sorry for the repost, but I just left Dan a message and voiced my complaint. Keep calling guys!!!!
__________________
MODS: Meisterschaft GT Racing Exhaust / BMC Air Filter / UUC SSK & DSSR (Modded)/ RPI Scoops / Passport SRX Hardwired / Custom Wrap 3M Clearbra / 20% Tint / 50% Windshield Tint / Key Hole Delete / Matted Out Accessories / VRS Type II Diffuser / Smoked Reflectors / Euphoria 6K LED Interior Lights / Rear Fog Light Mod / 6000K HID's / 6500K LUX H8 Angel Eyes / RDash License Plate LED Kit / LED Xenon Reverse Lights
"M3 drivers have no friends"
MMMorish is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      05-09-2009, 08:50 AM   #91
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,764
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post
Perhaps Mr Harris was right, maybe we're shifting to fast/hard into second gears
Just FYI, I'm not having to wait in my 1-2 shift. I did it twice yesterday and it felt very smooth and quick. I can assure you that BMW isn't waiting an extra half-second to get the 4.4-second 0-60 times they report.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-09-2009, 12:07 PM   #92
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,764
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
iBeJayKaying perfect. Now you know for sure that it's not you and it's your car. If the service tech can't reproduce it, then insist on taking him for a ride.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-09-2009, 12:37 PM   #93
louie_perm
Private First Class
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: *

Posts: 142
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
I reported that mine doesn't do it. That's a positive contribution to the thread and that's feedback based on actual experience. You take up our time theorizing and don't even know your head from a hole in the ground. AT LEAST go out and redline shift yours and tell us whether yours does it or not. Those that have it need know that not all 6MTs have the issue.

What's "educated" about your "guess". Are you a mechanic of some sort?

Dave

Several here have theorized as to the possible problem (see all the posts suggesting the OP is shifting improperly--not holding the clutch in long enough, not fully disengaging the clutch, or the theory that the clutch may need to be adjusted, or the theory that the synchro is damaged, etc.). Why the attack on me?

"What's educated?" I know how transmissions work. It's not rocket science, and you don't have to be a mechanic to understand it. I've also done some work on them in the past, though not a BMW. If the BMW transmission doesn't work like most others out there that I'm aware of, then I could be completely wrong. I doubt this is the case, since synchromesh transmissions have been the standard for about 30 years now.

By the way, many here agree with me, as evident by the number of folks guessing that fast or hard shifts are the problem. That's all I was ever saying. I just added some explanation for clarity.

On what basis do you conclude that I "don't even know [my] head from a hole in the ground?" Are you refuting my explanation of how forcing the shift could cause the problem? Do you believe my explanation is completely invalid? Please explain--not just for me, but for the others here who might want to know if my explanation is a possibility.
louie_perm is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-09-2009, 01:07 PM   #94
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,764
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Louie, if you'd say something useful, like telling us if your car does this or not, then you might get some respect. There's clearly a problem with some of the cars. In other instance

How can you have 1500 miles on an M3 and have not redlined it???? Poser??? I don't know, but it raises my suspicions.

I'm sorry if you feel "attacked".

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-09-2009, 02:18 PM   #95
BMWI6
Major
 
BMWI6's Avatar
 
Drives: 335is
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Miami, Fl

Posts: 1,322
iTrader: (2)

normal in all BMW tranny's, it sucks but thats the way it is.
__________________
If everything seems under control, then you aren't going fast enough"
BMWI6 is offline   Colombia
0
Reply With Quote
      05-09-2009, 03:39 PM   #96
BMWM.D.
Stupid Idiot
 
BMWM.D.'s Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335i & C6 Grand Sport
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Santa Barbara

Posts: 684
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by louie_perm View Post
That's what my guess was above--though I put it slightly differently.

More explanation:
When the dog collar disengages from first gear and begins to engage with second gear, the synchro mechanism makes first contact in order to synchronize second gear with the dog collar before the teeth engage. It takes time for this to happen, and the greater the difference in speed between the gears, the more time it takes for the synchro to work. Until things are sync'd, the balk ring keeps the teeth from engaging. But, the balk ring can be overcome with enough force, at which point the teeth will grind.

My guess is that some are shifting too hard and/or too fast, overcoming the action of the balk or blocking mechanism.



I think I'm with you on this one. My car has done this to me on a few occasions, always when shifting very hard and fast at redline on the 1-2 shift. I am 100% sure the clutch pedal is all the way in when this happens. I think I am just trying to force the trans into gear before it wants to. The only times it has done this is when I am launching from a dead stop with some tire-spin present.

I had my old G-tech hooked up the other day and was messing around with 0-60 testing. During my testing, I launched the car at too high RPM a few times which resulted in severe tire spin rather than a good launch. This is when the grind problem really showed up. If I tried to shift into 2nd quickly at redline (and very low vehicle speed due to wheel-spin), I could not get it into gear. This happened 2 times, I believe. If the car hooks up well and is not spinning the tires when shifting gears, I seem to have no grind problem at all. I can shift quickly without issue, although there does always seem to be a bit of a delay engaging 2nd gear, much like any other manual car I have owned. 1-2 shifts are always the hardest to nail fast.

Oh, and I am a BMW Master technician in California. I can tell you that I will not be ripping out my transmission for this problem, unless it gets a lot worse. Judging by the number of us that have experienced this problem, I'd have to say it is an engineering flaw (or just the way they are). I think I am just trying to make the transmission do something it does not want to do.

For those of you that want BMW to replace parts to fix this problem; I would suggest taking the service manager or shop foreman for a drive to show it to them. This is the only way you will get anything done. It will be unlikely that the tech will be able to duplicate the problem, and I doubt you want them beating on your car to verify it.

If anybody in the area wants me to look at this problem for them, I can try to get the ball rolling. If I can get the problem to happen then it is likely that we can get some parts replaced to make you happy. Send me a PM if you'd like.

Andy
BMWM.D. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-09-2009, 04:57 PM   #97
louie_perm
Private First Class
 
Drives: *
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: *

Posts: 142
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Louie, if you'd say something useful, like telling us if your car does this or not, then you might get some respect. There's clearly a problem with some of the cars. In other instance

How can you have 1500 miles on an M3 and have not redlined it???? Poser??? I don't know, but it raises my suspicions.

I'm sorry if you feel "attacked".

Dave

No need to apologize. You're right. I've added nothing useful. I am a poseur.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iBeJayKaying View Post
Those who can drive can drive, and those who can't...well, can't.

You're right too. I can't drive.


I don't deserve an M3, and I sure as hell have no business attempting to fraternize with the M3 elite. I won't be making that mistake again.
louie_perm is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-09-2009, 05:22 PM   #98
ScheerSpeed
Major General
 
ScheerSpeed's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 F30 Estoril M-Sport 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Miami, FL

Posts: 5,769
iTrader: (14)

Send a message via AIM to ScheerSpeed Send a message via MSN to ScheerSpeed
happened AGAIN to me today. WOT 1st went to shift to second, and wouldnt engage in 2nd until RPM dropped to 4500! and no matter how hard i pulled the lever... made an awful grind too. then i tried it again and what i found is that if the car hits the rev-limiter at 8400 then 2nd gear will not engage and it will grind. if you shift before 8000 it will engage just fine.
ScheerSpeed is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-09-2009, 05:39 PM   #99
ismelllikepoop
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: m3
Join Date: May 2008
Location: pooptown

Posts: 325
iTrader: (1)

[quote=louie_perm;5089076]No need to apologize. You're right. I've added nothing useful. I am a poseur.
you're on a bmw m3 forum, dont take anything personally. you're surrounded by douches galore. if you let it irk you your head's gonna explode
ismelllikepoop is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 08:47 AM   #100
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
 
southlight's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

Posts: 6,746
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Louie, if you'd say something useful, like telling us if your car does this or not, then you might get some respect. There's clearly a problem with some of the cars. In other instance

How can you have 1500 miles on an M3 and have not redlined it???? Poser??? I don't know, but it raises my suspicions.

I'm sorry if you feel "attacked".

Dave
I have to disagree. In my opinion it's perfectly fine not having redlined an M3 with 1500 miles on it. It's every owner's own business to obey or to disobey the break-in rules. Louie decided to obey them, so he's not supposed to redline the car yet.

Calling him a poser is uncalled-for and only strays away from the topic.



Best regards,
south
__________________
Those forums...WHY NOT?


JOIN THE 6MT CLUB GROUP
southlight is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 01:53 PM   #101
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,764
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
...In my opinion it's perfectly fine not having redlined an M3 with 1500 miles on it. It's every owner's own business to obey or to disobey the break-in rules...
Where is redline precluded after 1200 miles? It only says to avoid sustained full throttle operation.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 01:55 PM   #102
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,764
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWI6 View Post
normal in all BMW tranny's, it sucks but thats the way it is.
Not true. The "all BMW tranny's" (sic) apparently doesn't include my M3's.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 03:06 PM   #103
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
 
southlight's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

Posts: 6,746
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Where is redline precluded after 1200 miles? It only says to avoid sustained full throttle operation.

Dave
Operating manual, p. 108:

Quote:
From 1,200 miles/2,000 km to
3,000 miles/5,000 km

Engine and road speeds can be increased grad-
ually up to a traveling speed of 135 mph/
220 km/h. Use the maximum speed only for
brief intervals, e.g. when passing.
Let's get back to topic now.


Best regards,
south
__________________
Those forums...WHY NOT?


JOIN THE 6MT CLUB GROUP
southlight is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 03:36 PM   #104
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,764
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Operating manual, p. 108:
Mine says, "Engine and road speeds can be increased gradually up to a traveling speed of 135 mph. Use the maximum speed only for brief intervals..."

What does yours say?

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 03:54 PM   #105
BMWM.D.
Stupid Idiot
 
BMWM.D.'s Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335i & C6 Grand Sport
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Santa Barbara

Posts: 684
iTrader: (1)

For those of you who say their car does not have this problem at all, I ask you to try this for me. That is only if you are not afraid of driving your car hard :

From a standing start attempt a 4000+ rpm launch. This should result in moderate/severe tire spin. Launch hard enough that the revs shoot up to redline quickly with very little change in vehicle speed (ie. spinning the rear tires pretty hard). Do not let the vehicle speed catch up to the rpms by banging the limiter, etc. As soon as the rpms reach over 8000, attempt a quick and firm shift into 2nd gear to continue the burnout/launch.

This is where I have experienced the problem in my car; it only seems to happen when wheel-spin is present. I observed this during some timed 0-60 runs where I was experimenting with launch technique. Let me know what your results are.

Andy
BMWM.D. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 04:04 PM   #106
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,764
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBeJayKaying View Post
...Argue it in PM, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!
When did citing the manual become arguing? No need to get you panties in a wad.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 04:16 PM   #107
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,764
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWM.D. View Post
For those of you who say their car does not have this problem at all, I ask you to try this for me. That is only if you are not afraid of driving your car hard :

From a standing start attempt a 4000+ rpm launch. This should result in moderate/severe tire spin. Launch hard enough that the revs shoot up to redline quickly with very little change in vehicle speed (ie. spinning the rear tires pretty hard). Do not let the vehicle speed catch up to the rpms by banging the limiter, etc. As soon as the rpms reach over 8000, attempt a quick and firm shift into 2nd gear to continue the burnout/launch.

This is where I have experienced the problem in my car; it only seems to happen when wheel-spin is present. I observed this during some timed 0-60 runs where I was experimenting with launch technique. Let me know what your results are.
I launch more like 3200 with the 4.10 final drive and have not had enough wheel spin to cause this problem. If that's the only time it's doing it, then I would just avoid that. It's certainly slower than more limited wheel spin.

If the wheels are still spinning close to the shift, it's probably aggravating the speed mismatch of the internal transmission components, particularly with the sudden release of tension by releasing the clutch. The DCT in launch control actually slips the clutches and throttle to control wheel spin to a productive level, such that the tires actually hook up well before the shift. I try to emulate this when launching my 6MT and don't end up with a problem with the shift.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 04:31 PM   #108
BMWM.D.
Stupid Idiot
 
BMWM.D.'s Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335i & C6 Grand Sport
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Santa Barbara

Posts: 684
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
I launch more like 3200 with the 4.10 final drive and have not had enough wheel spin to cause this problem. If that's the only time it's doing it, then I would just avoid that. It's certainly slower than more limited wheel spin.

If the wheels are still spinning close to the shift, it's probably aggravating the speed mismatch of the internal transmission components, particularly with the sudden release of tension by releasing the clutch. The DCT in launch control actually slips the clutches and throttle to control wheel spin to a productive level, such that the tires actually hook up well before the shift. I try to emulate this when launching my 6MT and don't end up with a problem with the shift.

Dave


This is probably the case, but I just wanted to see if this aggravates the condition or causes it for people who do not experience it on a regular basis. I have a feeling that doing this does exactly that; it causes the most extreme speed mismatch that the transmission is going to experience in any driving condition. I have a feeling that just about all the 6MT cars will do this if put in the same situation.

I have also found 3000-3500 rpm much more ideal for a quick launch, with just a little spin before hooking up and accelerating the car quickly. I found this grind problem to be present when launching the car too hard/with too much spin. I have not had any problems when making a clean run, though. Obviously, I do not recommend using this launch technique for multiple reasons (too much spin + grind problem). However, I am curious if ALL the cars will have issues as well. This is why I suggested that you try this and report back.

Andy
BMWM.D. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 04:49 PM   #109
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,764
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWM.D. View Post
This is probably the case, but I just wanted to see if this aggravates the condition or causes it for people who do not experience it on a regular basis. I have a feeling that doing this does exactly that; it causes the most extreme speed mismatch that the transmission is going to experience in any driving condition. I have a feeling that just about all the 6MT cars will do this if put in the same situation.

I think you're right Andy. I'm not particularly interested in trying that with my car and tires, but I'd bet that some of the other guys have experienced. I'd be interested to read those reports.

OTOH, I think that several in this thread have a real issue with their tranny, because it's not happening when they drive another M3.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-10-2009, 04:57 PM   #110
dcstep
Brigadier General
 
Drives: '09 Cpe Silverstone FR 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Colorado

Posts: 4,764
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 M3  [4.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBeJayKaying View Post
Now, a question for you Dave, if I may.
Not exactly launching, but lets say you put your car into first, then get moving normally. When you get to around 4k rpm, put your foot down and floor it. Get to above 7k RPM, and attempt a shift. No grinding for you, right?
You're correct. Even when I shift at 8000+ rpm there's no problem. Also, if I launch around 3200 rpm and shift at 8000, or just over, there's no problem.

That put another potential issue in my mind. I wonder if some are waiting to 8400 for their shift. I think that you need to anticipate the redline by 200 to 300 rpm to avoid taking the engine to the rev limiter. Given the flat torque curve, I think there's no acceleration penalty.

Dave
__________________
dcstep is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:29 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST