BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos
 
Evolve Automotive
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-12-2009, 05:31 PM   #45
jeremyc74
59
Banned
 
Drives: '08 135i Montego/Terra
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Evansville, IN

Posts: 5,972
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135i_TT View Post
theres MANY videos and sites and threads comparing the 2 and TDI's have been on top of Hybrids.. you pay more upfront for a TDI but you DO SAVE more money on fuel in a TDI in the long run than in a Hybrid, its been proven many times. .


Please post a source for that. As I said earlier, I've got extensive experience with both, and there's no way you're going to save any more with a TDI over a hybrid with the fact that the average mileage is lower, and the fuel is more expensive. It just doesn't add up.
jeremyc74 is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2009, 05:47 PM   #46
jkp1187
17
Unindicted co-conspirator
 
Drives: to work, mostly.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Posts: 1,736
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Please post a source for that. As I said earlier, I've got extensive experience with both, and there's no way you're going to save any more with a TDI over a hybrid with the fact that the average mileage is lower, and the fuel is more expensive. It just doesn't add up.
x2. I'm not saying I wouldn't prefer a TDI for the reasons I said above, as I believe it is a good balance between driving fun and fuel economy (far more so than a soft-suspension hybrid -- hybrids may have promise in the future for driving fun, but if you want it here and now, diesel is the way to go,) but the ability to get insane mileage with those hybrids is quite true -- and numbers can be seen on cleanmpg.com. If you're single-minded enough to drive to squeeze every last drop of gas out of the car by turning off A/C and the like, that is.
jkp1187 is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2009, 06:25 PM   #47
135i_TT
14
1Addict, and proud
 
135i_TT's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 AW 135i M-Sport
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 1,436
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Send a message via AIM to 135i_TT Send a message via Yahoo to 135i_TT
Video Proof that the TDI gets better MPG than the Hybrid and is more fun and nicer all around
Jetta TDI vs Hybrid Challenge (In order from 1-6)










VW Jetta TDI gets 49.9mpg into the 50mpg rage as the Prius gets 42mpg
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...7021/1008/FREE

VWvortex "TDI better tan Hybrid" (Even the flaws and costs of batteries and such on a hybrid):
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2573373&page=1

VW Golf TDI avg mpg 69mpg and also how TDI's are always worth more and last longer than regular gas cars and hybrids and how hybrids do worst than both:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/06/auto...brid/index.htm

Theres so much more proof but I think this is good for now =)
__________________

BMW AW 135i ZMP:6mt,Coral Red Leather,Silver Matte Trim,Heated Front Seats,I-Drive,HD Radio,Ipod/Usb,Comf.Acces
www.wix.com/TT135i/Moi
135i_TT is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2009, 06:26 PM   #48
BForbes
42
Moderator
 
BForbes's Avatar
 
Drives: BSM 135i/AW E90 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 4,243
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135i_TT View Post
Just for the record everyone.. Markoni is a Japanese car lover... Hes a type of guy that says "stop trying to compare cars that arent even in the same league pricewise" but will argue all day saying an S2k is better than a 135i.. I think im done arguing in this thread bc threads usually get closed where Markoni is but its obvious Markoni hasnt done his research on TDI's compared to Hybrids as this topic is argued A LOT in todays market... theres MANY videos and sites and threads comparing the 2 and TDI's have been on top of Hybrids.. you pay more upfront for a TDI but you DO SAVE more money on fuel in a TDI in the long run than in a Hybrid, its been proven many times. Japanese car makers do make good cars as I love Nissan/Infinity and Toyota/Lexus but these Hybrids have yet to impress me when a TDI is better in every which way.. Im very open minded but Ive had proof that a TDI is a better investment than a Hybrid as many others have proof of it. The End.
Break down the math for me please. If the TDI's were close in efficiency to the Prius and the like, they're much further now.

I'm a bit confused. I was very interested at one point in a Golf TDI. The new Jetta TDI is rated at 30/40. No magazine has even gotten 40mpg out of the car. NONE. I looked! Why are there a lot of people on the TDI forum complaining that the cars keep getting lower mpg after each generation?

Please explain for us how you save more money on fuel.

I love Japanese cars and German cars for very different reasons. I have no problems admitting when I'm wrong.
__________________
- 04 Honda S2000(gone)
BForbes is offline   Bahamas
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2009, 06:33 PM   #49
135i_TT
14
1Addict, and proud
 
135i_TT's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 AW 135i M-Sport
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 1,436
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Send a message via AIM to 135i_TT Send a message via Yahoo to 135i_TT
Read the above post I think you missd
__________________

BMW AW 135i ZMP:6mt,Coral Red Leather,Silver Matte Trim,Heated Front Seats,I-Drive,HD Radio,Ipod/Usb,Comf.Acces
www.wix.com/TT135i/Moi
135i_TT is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2009, 06:36 PM   #50
ptack
42
Brigadier General
 
ptack's Avatar
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NJ

Posts: 4,254
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 135i  [3.00]
Let's be specific and note that the cost advantage for hybrids is US specific because of the low gas taxes. In Europe diesel is cheaper than gas so the cost advantage is for TDIs.
__________________
135i, SGM, Coral, Sport Package, Auto, Premium Hifi, USB/ipod, Apex EC-7s, PPK Stage II
ptack is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2009, 06:59 PM   #51
BForbes
42
Moderator
 
BForbes's Avatar
 
Drives: BSM 135i/AW E90 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 4,243
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135i_TT View Post
Video Proof that the TDI gets better MPG than the Hybrid and is more fun and nicer all around
Jetta TDI vs Hybrid Challenge (In order from 1-6)










VW Jetta TDI gets 49.9mpg into the 50mpg rage as the Prius gets 42mpg
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...7021/1008/FREE

VWvortex "TDI better tan Hybrid":
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2573373&page=1

VW Golf TDI avg mpg 69mpg and also how TDI's are always worth more and last longer than regular gas cars and hybrids and how hybrids do worst than both:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/06/auto...brid/index.htm

Theres so much more proof but I think this is good for now =)
1.)Lets start with you 69mpg link. That is on the European cycle! The '10 Insight freakishly can get that high on regular. The Prius will definitely do better on cycle of gas we measure in the U.S. Also, you are quoting the mileage on a VW "Concept Vehicle." In the same article is states the combined mileage for the 06 Jetta TDI is at a horrid 33mpg. Do you have any idea how mucha a TDI hybrid would cost? I'd wager an easy $30,000.

2.) Lets move on to the 49.9mpg TDI vs 42mpg Prius link.
Once again, did you read what they said?
Quote:
" Part of the shortfall was due to the pace we maintained"
Despite the 8mpg difference, the Prius was cheaper to fuel. The TDI was running on the hard to find and slightly more expensive B20 biodiesel as well.


http://kec.kansas.gov/chart_book/Cha...eselPrices.pdf

3.) I enjoyed a few of the YouTube Challenges. Here is an Insight Challenge posted yesterday. I post it because the Prius WILL no doubt do better.





Everycar has its mpg Freaks but come on!! Take note this was NOT the European Cycle. Everyone gets caught up reading diesel info and its not measured the same. I know b/c I made the same mistake with the MINI Cooper D. Most of those cars across the pond cant meet strict certificiations anyway. I would have no point if they did.

Lets take a stroll over to TDIClub.com forums:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...214055&page=41

There are a lot of PO'ed people getting in the low 30's. Those that arent complaining have to drive 60-63mph on the highway to get in the mid 40's. Or they have to locate ''special diesels." Its too much of a pain in the neck. My first car was a VW. I have a soft spot for them but I wont be buying a TDI until they become more efficient out the box. I wont buy a hybrid until its sportier enough for me either. :wink:


My point yet again: If the car does not get considerably better fuel economy, if any, and costs more $$, how does it cost less to fuel over the long run?
__________________
- 04 Honda S2000(gone)
BForbes is offline   Bahamas
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2009, 07:51 PM   #52
135i_TT
14
1Addict, and proud
 
135i_TT's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 AW 135i M-Sport
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 1,436
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Send a message via AIM to 135i_TT Send a message via Yahoo to 135i_TT
Seriously Markoni, your name calling me? Im not a child. Um my friend had a prius and we both put them to the test and same outcomes, VW always got further and quality was so much nicer just like in the video.. If the test were real? Wooow watever you say.. I guess that must have been toy people with voices over it that looked pretty realistic.. If it were just for advertising purposes than they must have some reallllllly bad feeback if theyre getn such low mpg's as yall say..Did you even see that even if its in euro cycle the hybrid still did worst on that cycle which means it would still do worst in the USA. Not to mention the rediculous cost to maintain the Hybrid and it has bad resale value and doesnt even last near as long as a TDI.. and I mean seriously $3k+ for a new battery? No thanks! I can imagine all the flaws in the Hybrids as my VW had no issues out of the ordinary ever.. I guess you also missed how the 09 TDI running on diesel was getn 49mpg and the Prius getn only 42 and how much even them disliked the Hybrid.. and why would you have to find a "special deisel" location ? I mean either way believe me or not but id get more then 50mpg in my TDI. And I truly doubt a TDI Hybrid would be $30k as my TDI was $33k.. $35k seems more reasonable for a TDI Hybrid if you ask me.. Where are you geting these insight numbers from and how does that post have anything to do with the Prius if its based on the insight? Are you refering to the 3rd Gen Prius?? I will admitt yes the Prius probably does better in the city but dont most people drive on the highway anyway? Im still not a single bit impressed with this Insight in anyway though.. even if those numbers are real.. I hope the Prius is improved however Id buy a TDI Jetta or 123d in a heartbeat again, Im willing to spend $5k or so more on a car that is better in build Quality, MPG (2008- Prius and maybe the new ones unless they do better), Sportier,A car that will always have better resale value, A car that will last longer.. Maybe the Insight will do real good but it would have to be reallly impressive especially with how everyone is these days bc we all know people dont buy a car just for MPG.. however Honda and Toyota are always good at selling new so im pretty sure theyll do just fine. Thats just my opinion.
__________________

BMW AW 135i ZMP:6mt,Coral Red Leather,Silver Matte Trim,Heated Front Seats,I-Drive,HD Radio,Ipod/Usb,Comf.Acces
www.wix.com/TT135i/Moi
135i_TT is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2009, 09:55 PM   #53
BForbes
42
Moderator
 
BForbes's Avatar
 
Drives: BSM 135i/AW E90 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 4,243
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135i_TT View Post
Did you even see that even if its in euro cycle the hybrid still did worst on that cycle which means it would still do worst in the USA. Not to mention the rediculous cost to maintain the Hybrid and it has bad resale value and doesnt even last near as long as a TDI.. and I mean seriously $3k+ for a new battery? No thanks! I can imagine all the flaws in the Hybrids as my VW had no issues out of the ordinary ever.. I guess you also missed how the 09 TDI running on diesel was getn 49mpg and the Prius getn only 42 and how much even them disliked the Hybrid.. and why would you have to find a "special deisel" location ? I mean either way believe me or not but id get more then 50mpg in my TDI. And I truly doubt a TDI Hybrid would be $30k as my TDI was $33k.. $35k seems more reasonable for a TDI Hybrid if you ask me.. Where are you geting these insight numbers from and how does that post have anything to do with the Prius if its based on the insight? Are you refering to the 3rd Gen Prius?? I will admitt yes the Prius probably does better in the city but dont most people drive on the highway anyway? Im still not a single bit impressed with this Insight in anyway though.. even if those numbers are real.. I hope the Prius is improved however Id buy a TDI Jetta or 123d in a heartbeat again, Im willing to spend $5k or so more on a car that is better in build Quality, MPG (2008- Prius and maybe the new ones unless they do better), Sportier,A car that will always have better resale value, A car that will last longer.. Maybe the Insight will do real good but it would have to be reallly impressive especially with how everyone is these days bc we all know people dont buy a car just for MPG.. however Honda and Toyota are always good at selling new so im pretty sure theyll do just fine. Thats just my opinion.
I posted the mileage of the Insight as a point of reference. All the auto journalists and civilians from different publications tried to achieve the highest possible mileage via "Eco-Assist." If the Insight does very well, the Prius should and probably will do better. I'm talking about the generation that debuts today.

A Honda Insight's battery will not cost $3,000. It is a fact that Honda's Insight Battery will not cost $3,000. They have shrunk the technology from the Civic Hybrid and implemented it on the Insight. They publicly stated that its significantly cheaper now. In fact, Honda has stated they will implement this on the worlds first "Hybrid sports-bike." It will debut in 2010.

I had a VW too and it was a horrible experience. VW still isnt up to par in quality and reliability of the Japanese. They do however have nicer looking and feeling interiors. They should given the premium in most cases.

The earlier TDI's got incredible mileage. The newer ones simply dont. I've inquired intensely over the past few months. My new business requires me to drive a lot.

You act as if these cars wont last long? I dont think you understand the nature of the Japanese Culture. Both of these car companies are predicting these cars to sell in ridiculous numbers when gas goes back up...and it will be soon.

Toyota is slipping and they are giving their CEO the ax. Everyone is slipping. The company does not reward or put up with any kind of incompetence. They were buying back rusted pick up trucks at BlueBook value. Who the hell does that?? A comrade has stated it much better than I:

*As an editorial side point, they want no part of what the Toyota Company had to do 3 years back. Remember that this a Japanese based company. That culture paved the way for one of the most humiliating events in the history of the automotive industry. Toyota was so eager to become the largest automaker in the world, they found themselves encompassed with this desire, they quickly found out bigger is not better. Their Consumer Service and Quality benchmarks hit levels of "serious concern". They lost control of the focus that made their products worth buying, quality first, quantity second. Then they found themselves having to conduct public formal apologies to the Prime Minister of Japan. While we here do not think that this would be a big deal, it is in the world of their culture. I can promise you that Honda took that event seriously and internally swore that they would never allow this to happen to them. Hence, business decisions will be applied with maturity and "concessions" that reflect the goals of its stock holders first, emotional owners second. "

QUALITY AND LONGETIVITY WILL NEVER TAKE A BACK SEAT.
__________________
- 04 Honda S2000(gone)
BForbes is offline   Bahamas
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2009, 02:39 AM   #54
BimmerKid87
1
Private First Class
 
BimmerKid87's Avatar
 
Drives:
Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 199
iTrader: (0)

I like the 2010 Prius better....


__________________
Kyle
Black/Black '09 Mercedes-Benz C300 Sport 6MT
BimmerKid87 is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-13-2009, 11:04 PM   #55
BForbes
42
Moderator
 
BForbes's Avatar
 
Drives: BSM 135i/AW E90 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 4,243
iTrader: (0)

"In California and the four other states that follow its strict emissions regimens, hybrid batteries are warranted for 10 years or 150,000 miles, which is presumed to be the life of the vehicle. The other 45 states have an 8-year, 100,000-mile warranty."

Prius taxis seem to be getting somewhere in the range of 200,000-300,000 miles before the batteries need to be replaced.
__________________
- 04 Honda S2000(gone)
BForbes is offline   Bahamas
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-14-2009, 02:34 PM   #56
QJS
4
St8rin' Thru My Rear View
 
Drives:
Join Date: Sep 2007

Posts: 444
iTrader: (0)

lucky you!

Until the oil runs out, we'll never have this in our region.
__________________
1M - FG E92 M3 - Spec Mi GTR - Q5
QJS is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-15-2009, 01:15 PM   #57
jkp1187
17
Unindicted co-conspirator
 
Drives: to work, mostly.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Posts: 1,736
iTrader: (0)

Rumors of bad news....

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7...TheCarTechblog

Report: Honda scraps sporty models

.....
At Honda, horsepower and pizzazz are on the chopping block, according to the British magazine Autocar. Plans for the successor to the S2000 sports car, a lineup of rear-drive Acuras, a proposed V-8 engine and a drop-top built off the CR-Z hybrid are all dead, according to the magazine. The reason: Honda is rethinking its product plans as it grapples with the global downturn in sales and economic conditions. In the United States, American Honda's sales fell 7.9 percent last year and 34.7 percent in December.


Tough times already had killed the planned 2010 Acura NSX, which would have had a front-mounted V-10. Now Honda also has decided to shelve a rear-drive V-8 Acura that was meant to take on BMW in 2015, according to Autocar. The V-8 -- long a thorny issue, given Honda's green image -- was seen as the wrong powerplant because of the uncertain future of fuel prices.
jkp1187 is offline   United_States
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      01-15-2009, 01:35 PM   #58
BForbes
42
Moderator
 
BForbes's Avatar
 
Drives: BSM 135i/AW E90 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 4,243
iTrader: (0)

ACURA BOSS: Addresses the rumors and says "Tier 1" program still moving forward. Take it as you wish. I'm pretty sure the NSX is scrapped. The S2000 replacement is very possible. The CR-Z? HELL NO. Honda isnt rolling over and dying. They are doing what they're famous for.

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=808157
__________________
- 04 Honda S2000(gone)
BForbes is offline   Bahamas
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:55 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST