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      09-26-2008, 10:31 AM   #45
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Looks like there will be a debate tonight, so now everyone can be happy.
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      09-26-2008, 11:22 AM   #46
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There are some people that will never be happy.

I expect an old fashioned ass whoppin by McCain on (I cant think on my feet, stuttering) Obama tonight.

As for the VP debate next week, I would suggest Mr.Biden to brush up on recent American history to see when the Great Depression was, whom was President at the time and that Televsion did not exist then. hahaahha.. that's the Joe Biden I've come to know over the years. Open mouth, insert foot. Repeat.
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      09-26-2008, 01:56 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kja325ci View Post
There are some people that will never be happy.

I expect an old fashioned ass whoppin by McCain on (I cant think on my feet, stuttering) Obama tonight.

As for the VP debate next week, I would suggest Mr.Biden to brush up on recent American history to see when the Great Depression was, whom was President at the time and that Televsion did not exist then. hahaahha.. that's the Joe Biden I've come to know over the years. Open mouth, insert foot. Repeat.
That's the problem with McCain.. he *always* thinks from his feet.

We're going to discuss Biden's qualifications versus Palin? You must be joking. Moose burgers all around! Wait.. we have to pray for abstinence and the dis-proof of evolution first. Bush Doctrine? Whaddya mean? Barbies for War...
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      09-26-2008, 03:05 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Spook View Post
That's the problem with McCain.. he *always* thinks from his feet.
That's a very valid point.

Personally I couldn’t give a rat’s arse about any candidate’s ability to think on their feet. What’s much more important in a candidate for POTUS is the intellectual ability to give serious and considered thought to complex issues (yes more than one at a time), and the personal discipline and confidence to avoid the temptation of making reactionary judgement calls to every conflict or crisis, small or large, that comes along for short-term political gain.

This is where McCain has seriously lost the plot.

Every step he has taken over the past couple of months has been reactionary gimmickery. Choosing Palin as running mate—a gimmick to attract Hilary supporters that even those in his own party are now publicly acknowledging was a disastrous choice. Stating that “we are all Georgians now” in reaction to a complex dispute between Russia, Georgia and South Ossetia in which none of the countries were sufficiently blameless for such simplistic sloganeering. And the latest gimmick: calling for a dramatic suspension (so-called) of his campaign to assist in meetings (at which, it turns out, he was apparently almost mute), with the added twist of the on-off-on again debate debacle. What's even more troubling, and should be for all republicans too IMHO, is that he apparently does these things without any sense of the broader consequences.

Doesn't Bush pride himself on his ability to think on his feet and make snap judgments? Nuff said.
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      09-26-2008, 03:14 PM   #49
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      09-26-2008, 03:19 PM   #50
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bush < [any other] plant
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      09-26-2008, 05:40 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
As for it being a PR stunt, it remains to be seen what he actually does in Washington. Admittedly, he isn't off to a great start with his actions thusfar.

Alright, I've remained, and I've seen. I've given McCain the benefit of the doubt that he would accomplish any of his stated goals while in Washington.

You've also had a chance to see what he's done. So now explain to me based upon what we now know McCain has done in Washington -- how this was anything but a PR stunt?

Please tell me what McCain has now done that qualifies as the "Stong Action" that you touted in your earlier post. Which of his goals do he accomplish?
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      09-26-2008, 06:10 PM   #52
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This is what Gail Collins (NY Times Columnist) had to say on this:

" I’m not sure what it says about Barack Obama. Which in itself says something about Barack Obama.

However, it’s crystal clear to me that John McCain did everything wrong. He showboated. He parachuted into Washington at a time when he could offer no practical assistance whatsoever, dragged all the parties in the negotiations off to the White House, and then basically just sat there while things fell apart. "
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      09-26-2008, 06:11 PM   #53
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Aparently he did very little Nixon. I wasn't impressed with his action either, I still believe he is a man of strong action while Obama is just strong words. It did show me how much all the politicians really just want to get their elected candidate to sound like they were right. Rep. were saying the candidates presence focused everyone and reaffirmed the urgency, while Dems said it ruined the 'deal the supposedly had' on Thursday. It seemed to me the Dems were rushing a deal and trying to stuff it down the Rep. throats before McCain got there so he couldn't play a role. Then when McCain got there, he seemed to just stay out of the way and not rattle any cages or do anything significant. Maybe McCain didn't want to overplay anything because it would look even more like a pr stunt if he were to try to play hero when that wasn't what they needed. I am sure Obama will ask him tonight what he accomplished by suspending his campain and he will do a better job than anyone to make McCain look like he was just pulling a stunt, so you will get a chance to see McCain respond.

The more I hear about the plan, the less I really want it to be rushed into action. I really hope the plan comes to be a true last resort for companies and works in stages as they are needed with larger oversight for each one.
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      09-26-2008, 06:46 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
That's the problem with McCain.. he *always* thinks from his feet.

As opposed to someone who thinks with his little head like Clinton?

We're going to discuss Biden's qualifications versus Palin? You must be joking. Moose burgers all around! Wait.. we have to pray for abstinence and the dis-proof of evolution first. Bush Doctrine? Whaddya mean? Barbies for War...

When you practice abstinence you don't have to pray. Don't you have your thoughts a little backwards?

And as for the Bush Doctrine...pretty hard to describe something someone else just thought up. My friend that's something the MSM made up. If you will check your sources again maybe you will find no such thing exists...except in their own minds. As opposed to the Monroe Docrine which did exist. Give me a break! Come back when you have something real to debate.

Oh, and just to let you know you don't have to right to have an opinion but you do when you want to allude it to fact.
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      09-26-2008, 07:11 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
Apparently he did very little Nixon. I wasn't impressed with his action either, I still believe he is a man of strong action while Obama is just strong words. It did show me how much all the politicians really just want to get their elected candidate to sound like they were right. Rep. were saying the candidates presence focused everyone and reaffirmed the urgency, while Dems said it ruined the 'deal the supposedly had' on Thursday. It seemed to me the Dems were rushing a deal and trying to stuff it down the Rep. throats before McCain got there so he couldn't play a role. Then when McCain got there, he seemed to just stay out of the way and not rattle any cages or do anything significant. Maybe McCain didn't want to overplay anything because it would look even more like a pr stunt if he were to try to play hero when that wasn't what they needed. I am sure Obama will ask him tonight what he accomplished by suspending his campain and he will do a better job than anyone to make McCain look like he was just pulling a stunt, so you will get a chance to see McCain respond.

The more I hear about the plan, the less I really want it to be rushed into action. I really hope the plan comes to be a true last resort for companies and works in stages as they are needed with larger oversight for each one.
I agree, McCain did less than little to help. Whether he made it worse or ruined anything? I doubt it. It's FUBAR with or without McCain in Washington.

All that I learned from the latest press coverage about McCain's Washington trip was that the carts they call a 'train' between the Senate office buildings and Senate still look the same as they did back in the late 80's. McCain never even made it on to the Senate floor, or into any committee rooms, or any work rooms. The furthest he got from his office was to get off those carts, turn left at the Line and Staff sign, and down the hall a few dozen yards to the basement Line and Staff cafeteria. Then right back to his office he went.

McCain didn't make any attempts at bipartisanship, and aside from the meeting that Bush sponsored, he never even talked to any Democrats while he was there. He didn't attend the Thursday night congressional work session, or today's congressional work session.

As far as McCain being a "Man of Action", this is a true statement only in the worst of connotations. As in the blundering hot-head who is quick to act, but without a clear well-thought out plan behind his actions. One who's knee-jerk responses dump him into holes he cannot dig himself out of. I would agree that McCain has sadly become that kind of "Man of Action".

--------------------------------------------------------------------

As for exactly who was rushing things into passing a bad bill, I guess you've already forgotten about George Bush LAST WEEKEND demanding that the Congress pass a "clean bill" without any amendments. Bush hammered on this point over and over. I know, I know, you don't even really consider George Bush to even be the leader of the Republican Party anymore. But there he was, the official leader of the Republican Party being the one pushing for a bad bill to be pushed through quickly. It was the Democrats that shut that down, not the Republicans. The Republicans didn't even come up with their nearly worthless and doomed to fail counter-plan until the calls from voters started coming in, long after the Democrats had already stood up to Bush and said NO! to passing a quicky clean bill.

If Bush would have submitted this bill back when the Rubber-Stamp Republican majority ruled back in 2005, this bill most likely would already be law. There wouldn't have been time to build grass-roots objections, it would be already be in the can. So I'm right now thanking the heck out of the Democrats, not blaming them for working in good faith to make something not so bad out of the horrible bill the Republicans were trying to push down their throats.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I could care less about Obama challenging McCain to explain his stunt. Even you and I both say McCain accomplished very little with his stunt. there is little for McCain to explain.

What I want Obama to corner McCain on is what he actually backs and supports regarding the bailout.

1) Does McCain support Bush's "clean bill"?

2) Does McCain support the Republican counter plan for tax cuts and insurance?

3) Does McCain support Obama's 5-point plan to make Bush's bill somewhat workable?

4) Does McCain have a zero-hour plan of his own he wants to introduce?


I was expecting McCain to at least go to Washington to rally his party behind his own position. But instead he failed to even take a position and stand behind ANY plan. How did McCain expect to rally BIPARTISAN support from both parties behind a single course of Action, when he hasn't publicly stated any position to rally towards -- and he didn't even participate in any of the work sessions to negotiate a course of action?
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      09-26-2008, 07:38 PM   #56
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You must be a fast typer.

I hope this debate goes well and McCain makes his position known to the voters, otherwise Obama will come out well ahead.

As far as the who rushed what plan, what I was referring to was discussed by the rep. who felt like as soon as McCain said he was coming to Washington the Dems acted like they just wanted to get something done before he got there, so they all of a sudden had a 'deal' made.

It isn't really a big deal though because any plan they make is likely going to suck because it is b.s. that we have to bail these people out of their own mess. I wish it was as simple as let the companies die, but unfortunately too much of the U.S. is tied into needing to borrow money. Hopefully it won't cost us too much to salvage this debacle.
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      09-26-2008, 08:04 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
You must be a fast typer.

I hope this debate goes well and McCain makes his position known to the voters, otherwise Obama will come out well ahead.

As far as the who rushed what plan, what I was referring to was discussed by the rep. who felt like as soon as McCain said he was coming to Washington the Dems acted like they just wanted to get something done before he got there, so they all of a sudden had a 'deal' made.

It isn't really a big deal though because any plan they make is likely going to suck because it is b.s. that we have to bail these people out of their own mess. I wish it was as simple as let the companies die, but unfortunately too much of the U.S. is tied into needing to borrow money. Hopefully it won't cost us too much to salvage this debacle.
I now get your point on the rush. That's all part of the negative effect of McCain bringing campaign politics PR stunts into the process. The stunt, and it's side effects were poorly thought out from the beginning.


Right now the plan is to buy up the derivatives that contain the bad loans, not to buy up the loans directly. The difference between the two is the effect of Market Speculators screwing up the market.

When you buy 1 loan as a bank, you know how much it is worth based upon simple math on the terms of the loan, and the value of the collateral. When you buy a derivative product containing thousands of loans, you can't do that math. You have to Speculate what it is worth. This was great for the speculators who bid up the value of these derivatives to the point that the price of the derivative was much MORE than the sum of all values of all the loans inside. Speculators made millions.

Now the (smart) Speculators have taken their profits and run (to go and screw up the oil and food markets).

And now the banks are stuck servicing all these loans that are part of derivatives that have crashed in value from the Speculators, and now trade for much LESS than the sum of the loans inside.

The Paulson plan is to buy up the derivatives and take the loans from the bank in one big move. If Paulson buys the derivatives for much LESS than the sum of the loans inside, then the US tax payers have actually gotten a great deal. They have bought mortgages at below their market value. But if Paulson buys the derivatives for MORE than the market value of the loans inside, the US tax payers get screwed.

So you see how this bailout could easily go either way. It could be either very good for taxpayers, but not so good for banks because they don't get paid as much. Or it could be very bad for taxpayers, and it would be a goldmine for banks who dump crap for mega-cash.

Unfortunately, there is no mention in the current bill about how Paulson would determine what price to pay. And Paulson could not answer questions about that when he appeared in front of the Congress. That is the fatal flaw of this bill. So the current bill MUST be amended to make sure this isn't turned into a jackpot for banks. Unfortunately, nobody has come up with an amendment, or a plan to do that. So this may end up being a dead bill because of this one fatal flaw.

But either way, the bailout would mean nothing unless there is new Regulations to keep the Speculators from jacking the loan derivative market up a month after the bailout is complete.


[Edit: A quick definition for loan derivatives: Take a bag, fill it full of loans. Then offer the bag for sale without letting folks see exactly what is in the bag. If speculators believe the bag is full of good stuff, the price the bag gets traded at goes up (regardless of what is really in the bag). If speculators believe the bag is full of junk, or if they just don't see huge profits in trading overpriced bags of loans anymore, the price of the bag goes down.]
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      09-26-2008, 09:41 PM   #58
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I am happy with how that went. Hope everyone else enjoyed it.
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      09-26-2008, 09:58 PM   #59
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I think the debate went well, but I see no real knockouts during it. If you like McCain then you will think he did well. If you like Obama the same will apply. On to the Biden / Palin faceoff.
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      09-26-2008, 10:02 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by kja325ci View Post
I think the debate went well, but I see no real knockouts during it. If you like McCain then you will think he did well. If you like Obama the same will apply. On to the Biden / Palin faceoff.
Agreed. Each side will see what they liked in the debate.
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      09-26-2008, 10:07 PM   #61
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Nixon, would you rather both sides negotiate in public? Roll the tape from yesterday and today and you will see the Liberal Democrat leadership step out in the public and make all kinds of accusations against McCain. You would have thought this whole thing was about McCain. If you think that way then maybe you just don't understand anything.

What do you mean by bipartisanship? It sure isn't limited to a Republican getting a Democrat to do what he wants. McCain came to town to talk with his side of the isle...to get them included in the elements at hand...a negotiated bill that everyone can live with. I think he accomplished the initiative to do just that.

You don't have to be in the same room with someone to negotiate a deal but you do have to bring reason to the table. If you think the Liberal Democrat Leadership brought reason to the table you understand what went on behind closed doors.

I'll let you in on something they brought to the table that had nothing to do with the crisis at hand but thought they could just tack this on and noone would know it until it was too late...$500 Million for ACORN...are you kidding me. That one thing alone would have been enough for me to go ballistic. Yep, got the Country on their minds alright I'd called ACORN a special interest group but then don't depend on me, go read about them yourself.

And the debate...I thought both did a great job as debates go. It was incumbent upon Obama to make the case he was truly Presidential...more so than McCain. He did not achieve that. Round One to McCain by the slimmest of margins.

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      09-26-2008, 10:14 PM   #62
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I think the debate was a draw, but i came away impressed with Obama. He stuck to his guns and kept up reasonably on FP. The real clincher will be the VP debates where Biden better destroy Palin.
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      09-26-2008, 11:04 PM   #63
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Nixon, would you rather both sides negotiate in public? Roll the tape from yesterday and today and you will see the Liberal Democrat leadership step out in the public and make all kinds of accusations against McCain. You would have thought this whole thing was about McCain. If you think that way then maybe you just don't understand anything.

What do you mean by bipartisanship? It sure isn't limited to a Republican getting a Democrat to do what he wants. McCain came to town to talk with his side of the isle...to get them included in the elements at hand...a negotiated bill that everyone can live with. I think he accomplished the initiative to do just that.

You don't have to be in the same room with someone to negotiate a deal but you do have to bring reason to the table. If you think the Liberal Democrat Leadership brought reason to the table you understand what went on behind closed doors.
Working from bottom to top. McCain hasn't shown up "at the table". In fact, the Congressional Republicans have failed to send ANYONE at all to two of the negotiation sessions in the last few days. It was just House and Senate Democrats and the members of the Bush administration present. During a third meeting, the sole Congressional Republican present was asked if he had been given negotiation authority from his republican peers. Upon asking, he told them that no, he was only there representing himself, and did not have authority to negotiate.

So the first thing you have to do before you can bring reason to the table is to first show up and negotiate.

If you want to talk bipartisanship, McCain is totally mocking bipartisanship with an ad he just launched after the debate. McCain is actually MOCKING Obama for agreeing with him!! This is yet again another example of McCain stomping the idea of bipartisanship ideals into the dirt. Please explain how mocking the guy across the isle for agreeing with you promotes bipartisanship, and then we can talk about the issue.

I'm not sure where you are going with the "debate in public" thing. I think I've made it abundantly clear that inserting election politics in the middle of the negotiations and making it into a public spectacle was a mistake on McCain's behalf. It was McCain with his PR stunt about suspending HIS campaign while he ran off to Washington who inserted himself in the middle and put the focus on him. Do you think the Democrats wouldn't notice McCain's little stunt?

/end call
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      09-26-2008, 11:24 PM   #64
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A couple points:

(1) If McCain wins this election, write this down: Secretary of State will be offered to Rudy Giuliani. He owes him big time. Romney will be offered a position too, but most likely will take a job which allows him enough time to comb his hair.

(2) Joe Biden appeared on NBC to give his impression of the debate. Who appeared for McCain? Rudy. Why did Palin turn it down? As someone who was aroused (read: well, aroused works.) by her inclusion on the ticket, she has given two so-so interviews and stayed out of the war zone. The pressure is squarely on her shoulders for the VP debate. McCain was dead in the water before and she saved him – let’s see if she can help him again. Still, Biden has to make sure to take an extra dose of his crazy pills. There’s no way around it; he’s one drink away from taking a swing at McCain or Palin, either one will do.

(3) No one won this debate. No side can claim victory. Both made great points but nothing to damage the other in the minds of others. The polls numbers will stay constant.
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      09-27-2008, 10:17 AM   #65
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I think the debate was a draw, but i came away impressed with Obama. He stuck to his guns and kept up reasonably on FP. The real clincher will be the VP debates where Biden better destroy Palin.
I think the VP debates will be very telling. But I don't expect a destuction.

We'll just see quite a bit of Palin parroting pre-manufactured responses to questions, and having her steadfastly repeat those answers no matter how hard she is pushed. Her responses will be safe, and uninteresting. All we will find out is that even when pushed, Palin will refuse to say anything more than what is in her Talking Points. Be prepared to hear over and over that Obama/Biden "don't understand" or "just don't get it".

Biden is actually the one who has the better chance of getting wordy and making a gaff. He has a history of his mouth getting him in trouble when he just keeps talking and talking. There is no way to predict what that man will say.

The big variable is in the untangibles. How much will the moderators and Biden be able to push Palin to say something other than her talking points, before they start coming off as bullying her? How aggressive can Palin be with her Talking Point attacks on Barack Obama durring the debate before she starts coming off as shrill?


Success for Palin: Managing to stay on her Talking Points and her attacks on Obama, while making everyone else the bad guys for trying to get her to say something else besides her talking points. The format for the debate works in her favor, because she will filibuster the questions with wordy responses before they can press her too much on any single question.

Success for Biden: Managing not to run his mouth off too much, and getting Palin to do the talking by pushing her to look silly for repeating her Talking Points over and over.
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      09-27-2008, 10:24 AM   #66
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Well part of a debate is how you adapt to your opponents responses right. We saw that with McCain and Obama responding to each others comments, Palin better be able to do that.

If she repeats the same stuff then thats the nail in the coffin. So she has to talk and adapt.

Its really sad its come down to this. I was leaning towards McCain for a long time but i just can't believe he picked Palin!
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