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      09-24-2008, 07:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
You're too far out there to even bother responding to any farther. Consider this my last one. I've got no time for extremists or people who lack respect for fellow citizens, even the ones who don't agree with their views.

The far left is as scary to me as the far right. You have to resort to extremes on even the smallest issues. I can't even take what you say seriously.

Please. Give me a break. If you don't have anything left to defend your position or that of your favored candidate, just say so instead of playing the drama queen.

So Presidential debates and the Bailout are "the smallest issues"? Wow. I have to completely disagree. All that is at stake is who will lead the world's only Super Power, and the fate of the world's largest financial exchange. What do you consider a big issue?

As for this whole idea that McCain thinks NOTHING should get in the way of his IMPORTANT work on the Bailout ---

By that he really means that he'll get to working on that Bailout TOMORROW NIGHT! Right after he gets done flying back from a political event that he's speaking at on Thursday:

"Mr. McCain said that after speaking at the Clinton Global Initiative in New York on Thursday, he would return to Washington to work on the bailout package."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/us...in.html?ref=us


So McCain doesn't have the time for a debate on Friday, but he has PLENTY of time to make a political appearance at the Clinton Global Initiative. And he isn't going to head back to Washington to work on the Bailout until after that is over.


How much clearer could it be that McCain is just trying to dodge the debate this Friday?
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      09-24-2008, 07:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
So Presidential debates and the Bailout are "the smallest issues"? Wow. I have to completely disagree. ?

No. Delaying the debate in the middle of a national crisis is "the smallest issue".

And with that I am honestly done with you. Feel free to rant until your heart's content. It only furthers your opponent's cause.
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      09-24-2008, 07:36 PM   #25
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This debate shows to me exactly what the two candidates are about.

Obama: 'lets issue a joint statement' he is about strong words

McCain: 'your right Obama, lets issue a statement, I would also like you to meet with me in Washington to discuss it' he is about strong action

McCain told Obama (this is from Obama's answer to a question on c-span) during their afternoon discussion that a joint statement should be made but he would also like to discuss the issue face to face in washington. Obama 'didn't realize' that McCain was so serious about going to Washington right away. When did he think was a good time to go? Next week?

The debate can happen later, and if the VP debate doesn't happen then the Dems will raise hell and have a right to.

McCain's presence says something to the Rep. that may have held this up and his presence actually matters. The Dems didn't have many opposers that Obama would have needed to convince anyway.
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      09-25-2008, 12:10 AM   #26
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I still don't really understand all of this. It might be my age, but wow. So let me get this straight.
1. McCain doesn't want to have the debate due to the economic bailout crisis. Even though it is at 9pm in the evening.
2. McCain doesn't want Palin to debate, due to lack of experience. And Biden will rip her apart.
This seems soo stupid to me. Never have I even heard of such shit going on. This is for OUR next PRESIDENT. This isn't a High school class election. This next man will be the commander and chief. This is important to us all.
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      09-25-2008, 12:57 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
This debate shows to me exactly what the two candidates are about.

Obama: 'lets issue a joint statement' he is about strong words

McCain: 'your right Obama, lets issue a statement, I would also like you to meet with me in Washington to discuss it' he is about strong action

McCain told Obama (this is from Obama's answer to a question on c-span) during their afternoon discussion that a joint statement should be made but he would also like to discuss the issue face to face in washington. Obama 'didn't realize' that McCain was so serious about going to Washington right away. When did he think was a good time to go? Next week?

The debate can happen later, and if the VP debate doesn't happen then the Dems will raise hell and have a right to.

McCain's presence says something to the Rep. that may have held this up and his presence actually matters. The Dems didn't have many opposers that Obama would have needed to convince anyway.
So when Obama talks on the phone, it is just "strong words".

But when McCain flys to Washington to talk, talking magically translates into "strong action"???

Really? So there is something magical about McCain flying through the air that makes all the difference between strong words and strong action?

--------------------------------------------------------

It's more about Obama making a responsible move to initiate a bipartisan joint statement at 8:30 AM this morning, and then having McCain twist it into a combination of parlor room trick and partisan attack on Obama six hours later.

This has NOTHING to do with McCain and Obama meeting in Washington. Here are the facts:

1) The joint statement has ALREADY been released. Neither met in Washington to do it. (They have these things called 'Phones' and 'Computers' so you don't have to go to Washington to meet these days - see 'Dilbert' for proof).

2) McCain is in no hurry to head off to Washington. Today he did an interview with Katie Couric in New York. He didn't rush off to Washington like he told people he was going to do. And he'll be right there in New York tomorrow so he can make a speech at the Clinton Global Initiative. ONLY then will he 'rush' off to Washington -- just in time to show up for Friday morning's work sessions to attempt to take all the credit for the last week's worth of work the House and Senate have done. With all this claim of crisis, starting at 8:30 in the morning with Obama's call, McCain has blown off Wednesday, and will blow off Thursday before heading to Washington. Just in time to be 'too busy' to attend the debate at 9 PM Friday night.


This is about McCain playing an election time stunt. That is it. While McCain says he is suspending his campaign, in reality this little stunt is nothing more than his campaign maneuver of the week.
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      09-25-2008, 07:27 AM   #28
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I also think it's all very silly.

Obama and McCain have almost zero powers right now. The best thing those two can do is continue to become the next leader.

It's obvious this is a tactic to help McCain. When you put McCain next to Obama, and they both speak... Who do you think "looks"/"sounds" better? I also think McCain is trying very hard... and is very smart... If I was that old, and my image was .... old... I would do the same... he just might pull it off...

Face it, most people have zero idea what is going on, and it's obvious most leaders have little solutions, even though they do know.

Today is another day... can't wait...

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      09-25-2008, 08:01 AM   #29
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Dave on John -- oh snap!

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      09-25-2008, 08:26 AM   #30
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I biggest flaw I can see in the comments through this thread is the insistent belief that we actually KNOW what goes on behind the face of the media. To even think that the debate is just a "few hours of his time" is simply ignorant. To assume we know what was discuss in those "phone calls" is only speculation, and that skewed by the station we each heard it from. I certainly don't agree with the move to cancel, but on the other hand, this is a MAJOR issue and we need a solution immediately to avoid a 2nd depression. Have faith that upon rescheduling, the vice-pres debates will go on. All hell would break loose if they were canceled all together.

I'm a defense contractor, so you can imagine in which direction I lean, but I have to second jeremyC74 in stating that both the far left and right are unnerving. This extreme bipartisan attitude is un-American, futile, and sometimes borderline childish. We are a country nearing an economic cliff and in the middle of a fragile war...just think, we have the UK to thank for foiling multiple terrorist attacks on our nation.

Obama is a terrific speaker, and I respect those who adimently support him, we are all entitled to our own opinions...but to assume that his wit and charm is enough to battle an experience, "weathered," POW in a debate it rather naive. I pray that the American public will see past Obama's words and stage presence, and beyond McCain's aged wisdom and actually listen and assess the issues. It will be a terrific battle, we will see soon enough. I can only hope someone will finally impress me.
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      09-25-2008, 09:43 AM   #31
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your right, spending years as a POW improved his "wisdom" on the issues going on today, and he actually had time to squeeze in a lesson on debating as well. naive my ass.

I hate this BS about candidates, I swear to you it wasnt even mccain who insisted on going to DC, probly some genius working for him told him to do it to make him look good. by the way he probly wasted some OIL on the flight!

damn debate is a dog and pony show for morons who cant do their own research about a candidate.....and their party. So, who cares when the debate happens??? Not I, go read a paper or article or god forbid get on the internet.

135i's kick ass by the way! and from what I hear mccain probably would know how to drive our beautiful cars to the max, so hes got that going for him!!!
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      09-25-2008, 12:32 PM   #32
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Extremism is unnerving. The only actual extremist I can see is Palin. Evangelical literalists are *very* scary. As for those leftists out there, what are they going to do? Do massive redistribution of wealth? Socialize wall street? Oh wait..

IMHO, the McCain's handlers action on the debate and the financial bailout/catastrophe/whatever it is, are a result of his recent drop in the polls. He's losing and hemorrhaging badly so they wanted to do something, anything to stop the downward slide.

I keep thinking, Wall street Meltdown Disaster, Weapons of Mass Destruction, WMD, WMD.. keeps repeating. Sure this isn't a Tarantino film?
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      09-25-2008, 02:40 PM   #33
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The thing I wish to address first is everyone saying McCain wants to cancel the debate that is an absolute untruth. He wants to postpone these debates, Obama wouldn't do any town hall meetings, but no one cries about that.

As for Palin vs. Biden, Biden just fumbled an interview where he talked about when the great depression happened FDR went on T.V. and addressed the people... I think part of Palin's problem is how she is treated by the people running the McCain's campain, they don't want her to contradict any of McCain's stances so they have her clammed up. I am not saying that Biden is an idiot or Palin is perfect, but I think she isn't used to this type of campain, she is used to grassroots and being out with the people.

My comment of Obama being a person of strong words and McCain of Strong action was referring to what the two candidates wanted to do about the situation. Obama wanted to issue a joint statement, McCain agreed that was a good idea. McCain then offered Obama the chance to suspend their campains and go to washington to be present which is more that just a statement to the public no matter how you slice it. Presence is part of being a leader, and it is impossible to convey over the phone.

This could be a PR stunt, but if it helps get done what needs to get done, then I am for it.
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      09-25-2008, 02:51 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
I biggest flaw I can see in the comments through this thread is the insistent belief that we actually KNOW what goes on behind the face of the media. To even think that the debate is just a "few hours of his time" is simply ignorant. To assume we know what was discuss in those "phone calls" is only speculation, and that skewed by the station we each heard it from. I certainly don't agree with the move to cancel, but on the other hand, this is a MAJOR issue and we need a solution immediately to avoid a 2nd depression. Have faith that upon rescheduling, the vice-pres debates will go on. All hell would break loose if they were canceled all together.

I'm a defense contractor, so you can imagine in which direction I lean, but I have to second jeremyC74 in stating that both the far left and right are unnerving. This extreme bipartisan attitude is un-American, futile, and sometimes borderline childish. We are a country nearing an economic cliff and in the middle of a fragile war...just think, we have the UK to thank for foiling multiple terrorist attacks on our nation.

Obama is a terrific speaker, and I respect those who adimently support him, we are all entitled to our own opinions...but to assume that his wit and charm is enough to battle an experience, "weathered," POW in a debate it rather naive. I pray that the American public will see past Obama's words and stage presence, and beyond McCain's aged wisdom and actually listen and assess the issues. It will be a terrific battle, we will see soon enough. I can only hope someone will finally impress me.
Even Fox news reported yesterday the same general report of the telephone calls. You are fabricating doubt about the phone calls.

Of course the debates require prep time. But the only prep time McCain will be losing to working on the Bailout in Washington would be the actual day of the debate.

Yesterday after announcing how critical the crisis was, and how important it was that he suspend his campaign and run off to Washington to save the bailout, McCain STAYED in New York and conducted a campaign interview with Katie Couric. Then in his rush to return to Washington and suspend his campaign, he STAYED in New York again today, and delivered a modified version of his campaign stump speech at the Clinton Global Initiative.

He could have used all of that time to prep for the debate, or to go to Washington to work on the bailout. He didn't.

Clearly this isn't a question about McCain's valuable time. That is a McCain campaign fabrication. We can see how he has used his time to NOT rush off to Washington. And if there really were an issue of McCain's valuable time, I would hope McCain would be flexible enough to miss a single day of debate prep the day of the debate, and still be able to make the debate.

If he can't, he doesn't deserve to be the President.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I have much less faith in the vice-presidential debates being re-scheduled than you do. Since nobody on the McCain side has proposed any dates, or any re-scheduling, you have nothing but faith to go on either.

But if you want to hear a debate on the issues, I'm in complete agreement with you there. Not "town hall" meetings complete with audience plants to ask the worst hack questions imaginable (like was seen in town hall meetings in the primaries), but substantive debates. And not just the Presidential candidates, but the VP's too.

It is only McCain standing in the way of that.

It will be a sad moment to see Obama appear alone on Friday night and be the only candidate willing to sit down and answer the questions put to him on behalf of the American people.
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      09-25-2008, 02:56 PM   #35
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McCain for me, he is the better financially sound decision.
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      09-25-2008, 03:00 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
This could be a PR stunt
How can you have any doubt at this point that it was a campaign PR stunt?
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      09-25-2008, 03:04 PM   #37
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Becuase I haven't seen the news and what he has/ will do in Washington. He may not have to do anything, but what would have been bad is if he could have helped if he was there but wasn't able to because he was to busy campaining to go do his job as the current leader of the Rep. party.

Honestly Nixon, did you give it a chance to be anything but a PR stunt?
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      09-25-2008, 03:27 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
Honestly Nixon, did you give it a chance to be anything but a PR stunt?
I suspect not, and THAT'S what I mean by suggesting that we cannot speculate the content of the "phone calls."

Each media station, from Fox to MSNBC has their own consistent spin, be it left or right.

I'm not supporting McCain's decision in the slightest, I'm only making a point that immediately pointing fingers an bashing approach is chock full of logical fallacies and speculation. To assume any of us know all the information is foolish. I don't trust a politician or media representative as far as I can through them. McCain may have made a terrible mistake, let's see, the VP debate may be canceled, let's see...then we can raise hell. but first, settle the issues at hand...a measly debate can wait.
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      09-25-2008, 03:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
Becuase I haven't seen the news and what he has/ will do in Washington. He may not have to do anything, but what would have been bad is if he could have helped if he was there but wasn't able to because he was to busy campaining to go do his job as the current leader of the Rep. party.

Honestly Nixon, did you give it a chance to be anything but a PR stunt?

McCain isn't the current leader of the Republican party. George Bush is.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The reason I've come out so hard against McCain yesterday and today is that I actually DID believe when I first heard McCain's suspension that FINALLY McCain was going to treat the economy like the crisis it really is.

That after spending all year repeatedly trying to minimize the problems with the economy (even up to earlier this week) that he had reached a moment of clarity. That he had finally awoken back to his pre-2006 self and returned to the pragmatic Conservative he once was. You have to remember that I've always said that I've admired McCain's pre-2006 stances on a number of issues. And that if we had the same McCain of 2005 running now, that this would be an entirely different election today.

I actually had a moment of giddy excitement to see his turn-around. That drove me to learn what he was going to do. Unfortunately that just disappointed me more than ever. I found he double-crossed Obama's attempt at a bipartisan joint statement, and instead took the opportunity to run this PR campaign stunt instead.

I found that McCain refused to agree in the "Joint Statement" they issued last night to ANY of Obama's 5 principles for a good bailout bill. Even though McCain has publicly agreed with many of them.

I found that McCain did not suspend his campaign as he claimed, he is still doing campaign interviews and speeches.

I found that McCain did not rush off to Washington to join the Bailout talks in the Senate, and if it were not for the Bush holding a meeting tonight, McCain wouldn't have worked on anything bailout related in Washington until Friday morning at the earliest.

So yes, I did first BELIEVE that this was a legitimate return of the McCain of old. Which is why once proven wrong, again and again, I've become more and more vocal against him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I've fully explained myself.

But you still don't explain how NOW that you have seen what McCain has done with his time -- how you could AT THIS POINT have any doubt that it was a campaign PR stunt?....

Just state that you now see it WAS a campaign PR stunt, and then finish your statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
but if it helps get done what needs to get done, then I am for it.
Be intellectually honest with yourself and with us, and just say it was a campaign PR stunt, but that is perfectly acceptable to you? What is so hard about that?
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      09-25-2008, 03:45 PM   #40
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It looks like the deal is done, earlier than expected.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g...efmRQD93DUKB80

This will make McCain's campaign suspension look even more misguided, no matter how good his intentions may have been.
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      09-25-2008, 03:49 PM   #41
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He is for all practical purposes the leader of the republican party today, just as Obama is the leader of the democratic party. Bush hasn't really been the leader of the Rep party for over a year, though he still hold the highest of any republican positions.

As for it being a PR stunt, it remains to be seen what he actually does in Washington. Admitidly, he isn't off to a great start with his actions thusfar. However, you will never know if that was his idea to continue to do interviews until he arrives in Washington or if the people running his campain held him back and told him there is no way you can blow off the Clinton thing.

As far as the double crossing Obama about the joint statement. Maybe McCain knows that to get somthing passed to solve this crisis, they won't be able to get all five of Obama's principles in the bill and he doesn't want to promise the public something he can't deliver.
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      09-25-2008, 03:50 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
I biggest flaw I can see in the comments through this thread is the insistent belief that we actually KNOW what goes on behind the face of the media. To even think that the debate is just a "few hours of his time" is simply ignorant. To assume we know what was discuss in those "phone calls" is only speculation, and that skewed by the station we each heard it from. I certainly don't agree with the move to cancel, but on the other hand, this is a MAJOR issue and we need a solution immediately to avoid a 2nd depression. Have faith that upon rescheduling, the vice-pres debates will go on. All hell would break loose if they were canceled all together.

I'm a defense contractor, so you can imagine in which direction I lean, but I have to second jeremyC74 in stating that both the far left and right are unnerving. This extreme bipartisan attitude is un-American, futile, and sometimes borderline childish. We are a country nearing an economic cliff and in the middle of a fragile war...just think, we have the UK to thank for foiling multiple terrorist attacks on our nation.

Obama is a terrific speaker, and I respect those who adimently support him, we are all entitled to our own opinions...but to assume that his wit and charm is enough to battle an experience, "weathered," POW in a debate it rather naive. I pray that the American public will see past Obama's words and stage presence, and beyond McCain's aged wisdom and actually listen and assess the issues. It will be a terrific battle, we will see soon enough. I can only hope someone will finally impress me.

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      09-25-2008, 03:55 PM   #43
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      09-25-2008, 05:07 PM   #44
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I appologize if I am being too right wing for people, or if I have been childish.
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