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      06-27-2008, 11:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Spook View Post
Not sure where the idea that there were not spills during Katrina came from:

Aug.-Sept., New Orleans, Louisiana: The Coast Guard estimated that more than 7 million gallons of oil were spilled during Hurricane Katrina from various sources, including pipelines, storage tanks and industrial plants.

This is from: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001451.html

Offshore drillling is far from it's peak so you would expect fewer incidents. I don't believe it when the oil industry tells me they have technology that has mitigated the risk. I lived in Houston for 25 yrs up until 4 yrs ago and spent a lot of time on the water. There are still lots of oil dollops floating about and on the beach. I had to keep cleaners in the truck to do my waders and the boat hull after the trip. Hardly pristine.

When it comes to taking care of us, are we really going to believe Exxon and W?
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      06-28-2008, 12:05 AM   #24
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He should have traded it in on a new diesel 1-series.
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      06-28-2008, 12:09 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Jackdaws View Post
As for high American gas prices, that's what you get when you elect an oilman as President who starts an unnecessary war resulting in more instability in the Middle East. Mission Accomplished!
Let me guess you are young, under 30.

Please educate yourself more on the situation. Sounds rude, but if everyone did it would really pay off.


Oil is a worldwide commodity, with worldwide influences.
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      06-28-2008, 12:56 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Jackdaws View Post
As for high American gas prices, that's what you get when you elect an oilman as President who starts an unnecessary war resulting in more instability in the Middle East. Mission Accomplished!
Come on now. If we started this war to get their oil then why aren't we paying LOWER prices? Oilman or not, I can't believe these higher prices are by design.
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      06-28-2008, 07:02 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
Not sure where the idea that there were not spills during Katrina came from:

Aug.-Sept., New Orleans, Louisiana: The Coast Guard estimated that more than 7 million gallons of oil were spilled during Hurricane Katrina from various sources, including pipelines, storage tanks and industrial plants.

This is from: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001451.html

Offshore drillling is far from it's peak so you would expect fewer incidents. I don't believe it when the oil industry tells me they have technology that has mitigated the risk. I lived in Houston for 25 yrs up until 4 yrs ago and spent a lot of time on the water. There are still lots of oil dollops floating about and on the beach. I had to keep cleaners in the truck to do my waders and the boat hull after the trip. Hardly pristine.

When it comes to taking care of us, are we really going to believe Exxon and W?
The link says
2005Aug.-Sept., New Orleans, Louisiana: The Coast Guard estimated that more than 7 million gallons of oil were spilled during Hurricane Katrina from various sources, including pipelines, storage tanks and industrial plants “.

I specifically said “The environmentalist will come out and complain about spills but off the Gulf coast there was no oil spilled when Katrina came through. I think we are better able to manage the oil wells these days”.

Your reference mentions oil spills including pipelines, storage tanks and industrial plants”. These spills are not from drilling off the coast they are from moving and storing the oil. That can happen from oil we bring in from the middle east of oil we drill off shore so it is not directly related to drilling off the Gulf Coast.
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      06-28-2008, 09:47 AM   #28
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The price of oil has quadrupled in only five years. Oil was $22/bbl at Bush Sr.'s Gulf War in 1991. Oil was $22 at Bush Jr.'s election in 2000; $23 on 9/11/01; and $32 an Bush Jr.'s Mission Accomplished speech in 2003. Oil is $140/bbl and rising today, and many expect gas to be $7/gal this Summer. That's not only "world market conditions." Many believe Bush Jr. occupied Iraq for Big Oil. The oil companies and Cheney's Haliburton have made record profits. Coincidentally, the former Western partners of Hussein's Iraq Petroleum Company-- Exxon, Shell, Total, and BP--are this month finalizing contracts to resume Iraqi oil production. Others believe Bush Jr. invaded Iraq to prevent higher oil prices in that Hussein's Iraq Petroleum was pumping too much oil and exceeding Saudi quotas. Still others think that Bush Jr. stupidly and arrogantly invaded Iraq in 2003 for a quick political and PR victory to offset few targets and success in the war on terror. Unfortunately, Bush Jr.'s dirty little war against Iraq (which had no WMDs or terrorists) needlessly squandered American military lives and materiel; failed to fight terrorists on the Afghanistan front where they actually were; laid waste to Iraq and it's people; removed Iran's natural enemy Hussein; and destabilized the Middle East. Hopefully, a new American President with a sounder foreign and military policy will fight the terrorists where they are; disentangle us from an unnecessary political war in Iraq; and pursue an alternative energy policy to reduce reliance on foreign oil...Oh, and no more Texas oilmen for President, please.
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      06-28-2008, 10:16 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 60Driver View Post
I was in Germany in April and gas was about $9.40 a gallon. It doesn't seem like prices have moved at all in two months compared to our prices here. Um, I don't know where I'm going with that.
Its kinda funny because once the dollar stabalized vs. the euro our prices kept jumping .20-.40 per gallon and here in germany it changed .01-.03 even after conversion that seems a bit steep for us.

In the last 4 months german gas has gone up .08 per liter or .30 per gallon....and that jump was in the last 2 days and will go right back down by later today or tomorrow
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      06-28-2008, 11:02 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by IDBMW View Post

Your reference mentions oil spills including pipelines, storage tanks and industrial plants”. These spills are not from drilling off the coast they are from moving and storing the oil. That can happen from oil we bring in from the middle east of oil we drill off shore so it is not directly related to drilling off the Gulf Coast.

Note: While it may be an interesting topic, drilling offshore is moot for now. There are no deep sea drilling ships available and there won't be for a very long time (over 5 yrs). The ones that are being built are going to places like Brazil where there are huge offshore reserves. So, if we don't mind some environmental risk to our coasts we can have more US oil in like what, 8 years? Great plan. That being said....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure the oil industry and the republicans would have us believe we're just talking the rig itself. Unfortunately that is deceptive. (for simplicity let's skip the fact that offshore drilling generates 100's of tons of rock/mud pumped into the local environment)

Onshore pipelines , storage tanks, and other facilities go with the offshore rigs. If you get the rigs, you get the other facilities. To transfer oil from the rigs there are different methods: pipelines to shore, tankers, and some use offshore storage with transfer to tanker. All of them have shore facilities. Other states would likely have nowhere as extensive an infrastructure as that area which has a lot of offshore rigs, but wait until a Florida hurricane hits their facilities when they set them up in some pretty harbor.

The facilities that generated 7 million gallons of oil spill were associated with local offshore oil tanks and pipelines which there is a lot of in that area. Currently, the tankers coming in from the middle east are 'lightered' (transferred to smaller tankers) and delivered primarily in Houston. Some may go to Louisiana, I don't know, but this is one of the reasons why the Port of Houston is so huge.

The original Bush, not an environmentalist by any stretch, banned offshore production for all these reasons. The goal was to protect our coastlines not from just the rig itself, but the production system. W is giving the oil industry what they want by asking for the ban to be lifted leveraging the current crisis, which he played a large part in creating (see next post) with classic 'make em scared and get what you want' politics.

I really don't think relying on reassurances and technology claims from those who stand to profit is a good strategy for protecting ourselves.
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      06-28-2008, 11:15 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by slickone View Post
Let me guess you are young, under 30.

Please educate yourself more on the situation. Sounds rude, but if everyone did it would really pay off.


Oil is a worldwide commodity, with worldwide influences.
So.. China and India demand caused the price to suddenly skyrocket? Wouldn't this change be gradual? Wouldn't the price of all energy types go up? Has Chinese coal production gone down suddenly? Did the number of cars in the world go up enough to account for this? Why did the analysts not see something so predictable coming? Note that the price of propane, while rising, has not seen anywhere near the increase in oil. The price of coal has not gone up so much. The price of other things like wood pellets for heating has stayed the same. So.. we're not talking the energy market in general, we're talking oil.

Instability in Iraq has been a significant contributor to the meteoric rise we're seeing in oil. That would be the incredible stupidity of W. Bush making one of the biggest blunders in the last 100 years in play. I hope the Christian right is happy with their president because he sure screwed the rest of us. I suppose we could also expect our country to improve relationships with supplier states like Venezuela, Iran, and doing our part to stabilize Nigeria, but that is light years ahead of this bunch.

Yes.. educating ourselves is good. So is sorting fact from opinion and the way some wish for it to be versus the way it is. If we're smart enough to pick a 1 series, we're smart enough to not believe the sound bites and BS that this government tells us because the real reasons remind us of what losers they are.
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      06-28-2008, 01:11 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slickone View Post
Let me guess you are young, under 30.

Please educate yourself more on the situation. Sounds rude, but if everyone did it would really pay off.


Oil is a worldwide commodity, with worldwide influences.
I'm over 60. Have a little bit of education.... Hmmmm, I think I can accept Jackdaws statement until someone shows me the error of his ways.

Maybe it all goes back to the old adage, "Where you stand depends on where you sit."
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      06-28-2008, 02:14 PM   #33
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Off to politics this goes.
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      06-29-2008, 09:24 AM   #34
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Smiles.. thanks Art.. somehow I don't see us injecting much car specific data here.
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      08-17-2008, 12:56 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Omega Man View Post
One more observation and then I'll leave it alone. I remember back in the 60's going to the beach in Galveston and Gulfport on several road trips. It was really shitty down there back then. Lots of oily globs washing up and regular spills. Now I live near the gulf coast and it's never been cleaner. They are still drilling in the Gulf. I believe processes and quality has gotten a lot better since the bad experiences of the 60's. But it's totally understandable why people in CA and FLA don't want their beaches trashed. that's a big part of the economy, clean beaches. It's a tough deal. But we all gotta eat, as they say.
1. If that hippie generation wasn't doing so many drugs in the 60s they would have been coherent to not be sloppy with the environment. Oil is not the enemy. We have more oil resources in all its different forms in North America than we could use in 200 years. And thats the oil we know about.

2. The American Petroleum Extortion Cartel (APEC), aka Congress, won't even allow for the mapping of oil fields with modern technology. We have only 2-D imaging from the 70s. That is roughly the equivalent of using X-Ray for imaging and completely disregarding CAT scans or MRIs in the medical field. SO.... In addition to the 200+ years of oil resources we know about -- oil shale (Colorado, Utah), Bakken oil field (North Dakota, Montana), oil sands (Alberta), Alaskan deposits, Gulf Coast -- there is probably years more in areas that APEC has blocked simply the search for with modern tools. Those discoveries which will provide petroleum resources for an additional 50-100, bringing our total to possibly 300 years.

3. The idea that carbon dioxide from the use of petroleum causes global warming is the biggest hoax ever played, and our enthusiastic love of the automobile is paying the price. Let's get this straight, in an ideal environmentalist world with no additional CO2 in the atmosphere the suns rays travel to the earth, enter the atmosphere, bounce off the surface of the earth and heating the planet, but escaping back into space, thus keeping the planet is just the right temperature. But these little, and highly intelligent might I add, CO2 molecules have thrown in the atmosphere by evil man. While there the highly advanced, dastardly CO2 molecules let in the sunlight to heat the earth, but prevent the sunlight and all its heat from escaping back into space to balance it out. I find it truly amazing that they can tell the difference between an incoming ray of sunlight from an outgoing ray of sunlight. They must be engineered CO2 molecules created by Cheney while at Haliburton.

I don't mean to make such a mockery of this, but it is hysterical to claim that it is man's burning of fossil fuels that is cooking the earth. If that were the case, the enormous use of piston engines in planes and tanks in WWII and subsequent economic expansion of the 50s would have sent temperatures skyrocketing, when in fact the feared global cooling in the mid-70s, because the 1940-70 temperature trends were falling like the October 1929 stock market. Any increase or decrease in temperature is part of the natural cycle and not man made. In fact, volcanoes put more CO2 in the atmosphere in 1 year than all of the burning of fossil fuels have in all of man's history combined. Simply put, the socialists/communists used classism to implement their ideology during the 20th century. History has shown that lack of freedom and laziness are the only obstacles to success. Now the new generation of socialists/communists are using environmentalism instead of classism to push their totalitarian ideology. The keeping of cheap energy available to our economy is one of the greatest impediments to economically liberating millions of people around the world as our planet becomes even more economically integrated. Only by using the environment can the neo-commies and neo-socialists ever hope to take control. OK, I will get off my soapbox now.
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