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      05-01-2008, 03:45 PM   #67
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Do you really think that wasn't a factor? Why was he talking about Iraq before 9/11 happened? He had been focused on invading Iraq ever since he took office and he capitalized on the first opportunity he could manufacture to justify it.
I know Saddam had WMDs, how do I know that you ask? Because he used them to kill his own people. Now we didn't find it, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. It is like any super weapon that gives those who wield it power, you aren't going to give it up unless you have to.

Maybe the reason Bush talked about Iraq was because Clinton was letting Saddam get away with anything he wanted to with regards to the treaties signed after the first Gulf War, and Bush felt it was important to enforce those sanctions. I am sure Clinton was too busy getting sucked off to care about the future of the middle east, or to care that his non-action just emboldened Saddam much the same as the world did with Hitler prior to WWII.

In any case, we are there now and whether or not it was a 'Just War' is essentially unimportant because we have tough decisions about where to go from here that should be the focus of the powers that be.
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      05-01-2008, 04:18 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
I know Saddam had WMDs, how do I know that you ask? Because he used them to kill his own people. Now we didn't find it, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. It is like any super weapon that gives those who wield it power, you aren't going to give it up unless you have to.

Maybe the reason Bush talked about Iraq was because Clinton was letting Saddam get away with anything he wanted to with regards to the treaties signed after the first Gulf War, and Bush felt it was important to enforce those sanctions. I am sure Clinton was too busy getting sucked off to care about the future of the middle east, or to care that his non-action just emboldened Saddam much the same as the world did with Hitler prior to WWII.

In any case, we are there now and whether or not it was a 'Just War' is essentially unimportant because we have tough decisions about where to go from here that should be the focus of the powers that be.
Well you're right, jumping right in, without support, to an unjustified war that we have no business being in has never, ever, in the history of America ever worked against us. Ever heard of Vietnam? We did the same thing there that we did in Iraq and as I recall that ended well, didn't it?

Also, wasn't it Clinton who brokered the deal between Arafat and Rabin? Pretty sure it was, so I guess he didn't care about the middle east. If you really think that Bush's foreign policy is better than Clinton's you must be high. I dont recall the entire world hating us, I also dont recall and unjustified war being fought, certainly not on the scale that it is right now. How many American boys died in Serbia? Not nearly as many as in Iraq. And if Saddam had WMD's where are they? If they aren't in Iraq then he must have either used them all up when he, sanctioned by us, attempted Genocide on the Iranians in the early 80's or he used them all on his people like you claim, however I haven't read anything about that in the past 7 years so I dont see how that could be possible, you would think the administration would want to offer proof to the public that he did indeed have WMD's which it is commonly accepted as fact that he did not.
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      05-01-2008, 07:19 PM   #69
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Honest, simple questions:

Do you really believe 'the whole world hates us?'

If so, do you really care and why?
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      05-01-2008, 09:03 PM   #70
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People say we jumped into Iraq, but did we? From 92' on we were trying to get Saddam to comply with the sanction imposed upon him using diplomatic measures, but he never would. When a police officer asks to search a drug dealer and he refuses, why do you think that is? Possibly, because he is a drug dealer? I would have made the same decision Bush did with the information he had. Diplomacy hadn't really worked for nearly a decade so he made a move to protect American interests with a coalition of other nations who have since fallen out.

You and people like you lose the wars my brothers in arms fight. The American military wins battle after battle, but the people at home lose wars, or to be more politically correct 'cause us to pull out of unfinished conflicts.'

Vietnam was a show of force and a product of the Cold War. The current situation is comparable to how the North Vietnamese learned how to fight us, but it wasn't always like that in the beginning of the conflict. The reasons behind the two wars are not nearly the same, so it can't really be used to compare whether either was justified.

The lesson to be learned, and our enemies have learned it better than the American public, is that The U.S. military is nearly impossible to defeat in open conflict. However, the will of the U.S. people is considered to be very weak and fickle. Our enemies have spent generations in conflict and do not fear it like the average american who at the most has got in one or two drunken brawls. They know who they are fighting against, and it isn't the 18 year old pointing a M4 at them. No they understand that with every IED that makes the 24hr news network, they are that much closer to winning.

We do what we can as soldiers, but we all know eventually we will go home because that is what the media is telling the sheep that are the general public we should do. And I gladly do it because it is my calling but just like any other job it has its frustrations and two faced promises. I just hope one day America will let us finish a war so that the stigma of the weak willed American can be erased.

Been a long day, and I don't care to proof read so I apologize for any errors.
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      05-02-2008, 03:58 AM   #71
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Just thought I would throw in my two cents. I have been in Iraq since the beginning of this whole thing. Attached is a pic of the actual capture of Saddam by my unit. DIVARTY 4ID. I thought we should have been here based on the info we had about supposed weapons of mass destruction. Turns out he had in fact destroyed them as he was suppose to, but was hiding that fact from the UN, not because he wanted to destroy the U.S. but because he thought his biggest enemy was Iran at the time and he did not want to look weak to them. Now that we are here we have a huge mess on our hands and it was of our own doing and even though I wish we could just pack up and leave it would be a very bad mistake to leave this problem we have created.
Hope the Saddam pic doesn't get me in trouble.
Now, as far as the school problem goes. I think the schools could use more money only if they changed the way they use it. There are a lot of changes that could be made in textbooks, teachers salaries, actual buildings people work in, etc. But there is also a lot of waste, and some of the teachers we have teaching our kids can be included in that. If salaries were comparable to other jobs for college grads. then possibly we would get better teachers who would in turn do a better job of teaching our children.
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      05-02-2008, 08:27 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by rdkind62 View Post
Just thought I would throw in my two cents. I have been in Iraq since the beginning of this whole thing. Attached is a pic of the actual capture of Saddam by my unit. DIVARTY 4ID. I thought we should have been here based on the info we had about supposed weapons of mass destruction. Turns out he had in fact destroyed them as he was suppose to, but was hiding that fact from the UN, not because he wanted to destroy the U.S. but because he thought his biggest enemy was Iran at the time and he did not want to look weak to them. Now that we are here we have a huge mess on our hands and it was of our own doing and even though I wish we could just pack up and leave it would be a very bad mistake to leave this problem we have created.
Hope the Saddam pic doesn't get me in trouble.
Now, as far as the school problem goes. I think the schools could use more money only if they changed the way they use it. There are a lot of changes that could be made in textbooks, teachers salaries, actual buildings people work in, etc. But there is also a lot of waste, and some of the teachers we have teaching our kids can be included in that. If salaries were comparable to other jobs for college grads. then possibly we would get better teachers who would in turn do a better job of teaching our children.
Bravo on all points. Thanks, too, for serving our country!

Love the photo of Saddam! Fine work!

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      05-03-2008, 09:27 PM   #73
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      05-03-2008, 09:29 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by rdkind62 View Post
Just thought I would throw in my two cents. I have been in Iraq since the beginning of this whole thing. Attached is a pic of the actual capture of Saddam by my unit. DIVARTY 4ID. I thought we should have been here based on the info we had about supposed weapons of mass destruction. Turns out he had in fact destroyed them as he was suppose to, but was hiding that fact from the UN, not because he wanted to destroy the U.S. but because he thought his biggest enemy was Iran at the time and he did not want to look weak to them. Now that we are here we have a huge mess on our hands and it was of our own doing and even though I wish we could just pack up and leave it would be a very bad mistake to leave this problem we have created.
Hope the Saddam pic doesn't get me in trouble.
Now, as far as the school problem goes. I think the schools could use more money only if they changed the way they use it. There are a lot of changes that could be made in textbooks, teachers salaries, actual buildings people work in, etc. But there is also a lot of waste, and some of the teachers we have teaching our kids can be included in that. If salaries were comparable to other jobs for college grads. then possibly we would get better teachers who would in turn do a better job of teaching our children.

Agree 100%

That's a picture to show to the grandkids! :thumbup:
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      05-03-2008, 09:38 PM   #75
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Looking forward to seeing a similar photo with Bush being hauled off to face justice.
All war criminals should be made to pay for the deaths, pain, and misery they caused to innocent civilians.
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      05-03-2008, 11:31 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by colonel1961 View Post
Honest, simple questions:

Do you really believe 'the whole world hates us?'

If so, do you really care and why?
I care because we are part of the world!
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      05-03-2008, 11:54 PM   #77
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Looking forward to seeing a similar photo with Bush being hauled off to face justice.
All war criminals should be made to pay for the deaths, pain, and misery they caused to innocent civilians.
your a bitter dude man.
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      05-04-2008, 12:32 AM   #78
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without giving too much or starting a flaming war...

remember...we all bleed the same, and breathe the same air...

*and we all drive or will be driving bmw 1 series cars!!!!

with that being said....

"when the rich declare war, it is the poor that suffer"

I believe every man and woman who has ever and will ever don the uniform should be honored and offered every benefit possible....(sorry I just read about the 21st century GI bill cluster**** going on)

We are all entitled to our opinions and regardless of what everyone believes or wants to believe....

we have been bamboozled and our country has gone to sleep....

We get a change to make our voices heard and hopefully we do not flush it down the toilet...

If you are against the war...vote for someone who will end it....
If you are for the war...vote for the presumptive Republican candidate.


Either way, it is YOUR choice.....

btw...I am currently serving and separating in a few months and I can tell you 90% of those serving disagree with the war( from whom I spoken to)

Even John McCain admitted inadvertantly that we went to Iraq for oil...

google it...
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      05-05-2008, 09:48 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by europlane View Post
I care because we are part of the world!
I am a citizen of the United States of America. After that, everything else is secondary...I am not a citizen of the world, nor do I care to be.

Also, the majority of the 'hate' people talk about is based in jealousy - a worthless emotion and not part of any rational argument.
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      05-05-2008, 10:03 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Litflynt912 View Post
we have been bamboozled and our country has gone to sleep....
Appreciate that you are serving our country - very much!

Briefly: were we bamboozled by WWII? Vietnam? Korea? Gulf War I? WWI?

Arguments can be made for and against every single war. I'm against all wars from a purely academic standpoint. I really wish we'd all hold hands and sing kumbaya. But from a pragmatic standpoint, I realize that wars will always be fought, whether against tyranny, despots, fascism - whatever the reason(s).
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      05-19-2008, 12:56 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by colonel1961 View Post
I am a citizen of the United States of America. After that, everything else is secondary...I am not a citizen of the world, nor do I care to be.

Also, the majority of the 'hate' people talk about is based in jealousy - a worthless emotion and not part of any rational argument.
Off topic I know but really come on....

Pull your head out of the clouds, it is not jealousy but your country's foreign policies, particularly those relating to oil/energy that pisses off the rest of the world. In conjunction with the sanctimonious, self righteous, arrogant attitude that your half-wit President assumes, (not to mention the fact that he thinks he is on some kind of divine mission), when lecturing the rest of the world, that makes those of us outside the US believe that your government is the greatest risk to peace on this planet.

This is not directed to the American people however, just your Government. We in the rest of the world are not anti-American, just anti wars waged for BS reasons when it is obvious that control of energy supplies is what it is all about.

I know that the Government here in Australia supported Bush's war of aggression and sent troops to Iraq, but we finally saw sense and kicked them out of power.

Unfortunately your Government squandered the the support and sympathy from the rest of the world after 9/11 with your Governments response and lack of depth in trying to answer why you were attacked. Again it is not jealousy, it is your foreign policy thats has put the world offside.
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      05-19-2008, 09:38 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Moving Chicane View Post
Off topic I know but really come on....

Pull your head out of the clouds, it is not jealousy but your country's foreign policies, particularly those relating to oil/energy that pisses off the rest of the world. In conjunction with the sanctimonious, self righteous, arrogant attitude that your half-wit President assumes, (not to mention the fact that he thinks he is on some kind of divine mission), when lecturing the rest of the world, that makes those of us outside the US believe that your government is the greatest risk to peace on this planet.

This is not directed to the American people however, just your Government. We in the rest of the world are not anti-American, just anti wars waged for BS reasons when it is obvious that control of energy supplies is what it is all about.

I know that the Government here in Australia supported Bush's war of aggression and sent troops to Iraq, but we finally saw sense and kicked them out of power.

Unfortunately your Government squandered the the support and sympathy from the rest of the world after 9/11 with your Governments response and lack of depth in trying to answer why you were attacked. Again it is not jealousy, it is your foreign policy thats has put the world offside.
I doubt anyone on this forum knows the casus belli. The clearances and need-to-know just aren't there - and if they were, they couldn't talk about it anyway. Said another way, we may never know the real reason the war started in Iraq. To call it 'Bush's war of aggression' or a war for oil/energy is puerile and your ad hominem attacks, e.g., 'half-wit', do nothing to advance a reasoned argument.

If you don't like Bush, so be it. If you don't like our foreign policy so be it. It's not arrogance, it's our prerogative. I have no opinion re: your country's administration or foreign policy, nor will I ever - it's a sovereign nation and may do as it pleases.

Have a nice day...
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      05-19-2008, 11:23 AM   #83
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You are right I do not know the reasons for the invasion of Iraq, I am however willing to speculate there would not have been a war there if Iraq didn't have a large supply of cheap & easy to tap oil. That aside, surely in a nation with such a great & rich democratic history as yours the people deserve to know the reason your troops are sacrificing their lives, I would think it your duty as a citizen to hold your Government to account.

You may not like it but by many definitions* the US attacks on Iraq do qualify as aggression, which is a crime (whether a crime against peace or a war crime is debatable). Perhaps Bush's war is not the best term but he has been your Commander in Chief throughout this war, & he will forever have ownership of the policy & it's outcomes.

By saying you have no opinion on other countries' foreign policy, does that include Iran, North Korea & other States which can be perceived as hostile or only those of allies? Does this observance of state sovereignty have an escape clause when it suits? Or is it simply your way of shutting down a conversation by saying I have no right to an opinion on the way your nation acts in the world? The opinions of people in other nations do have an effect on the US, otherwise you would not have been the targets of the terrorists. Again jealousy is not the motivation behind these despicable acts, it is the perception of people (rightly or wrongly) that your Government is willing to do whatever it wants & the rest of the world be damned.

Is it your prerogative to invade and occupy sovereign nations? What gives your Government that right that applies to no other? If "might is right" is the doctrine to which international relations has returned then a stormy future will be in store for all.

I have had a nice day & I hope you do too.

*http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljust...1/0716cicc.htm, http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...k/lawindex.htm, http://www.un.org/icc/crimes.htm, http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/Resour...t/DocJac14.htm
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      05-19-2008, 12:09 PM   #84
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      05-19-2008, 01:45 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Moving Chicane View Post
You are right I do not know the reasons for the invasion of Iraq, I am however willing to speculate there would not have been a war there if Iraq didn't have a large supply of cheap & easy to tap oil. That aside, surely in a nation with such a great & rich democratic history as yours the people deserve to know the reason your troops are sacrificing their lives, I would think it your duty as a citizen to hold your Government to account.

You may not like it but by many definitions* the US attacks on Iraq do qualify as aggression, which is a crime (whether a crime against peace or a war crime is debatable). Perhaps Bush's war is not the best term but he has been your Commander in Chief throughout this war, & he will forever have ownership of the policy & it's outcomes.

By saying you have no opinion on other countries' foreign policy, does that include Iran, North Korea & other States which can be perceived as hostile or only those of allies? Does this observance of state sovereignty have an escape clause when it suits? Or is it simply your way of shutting down a conversation by saying I have no right to an opinion on the way your nation acts in the world? The opinions of people in other nations do have an effect on the US, otherwise you would not have been the targets of the terrorists. Again jealousy is not the motivation behind these despicable acts, it is the perception of people (rightly or wrongly) that your Government is willing to do whatever it wants & the rest of the world be damned.

Is it your prerogative to invade and occupy sovereign nations? What gives your Government that right that applies to no other? If "might is right" is the doctrine to which international relations has returned then a stormy future will be in store for all.

I have had a nice day & I hope you do too.
That's quite an array of strawmen arguments you've made. All of them fallacies of logic, of course. I am not my government, nor are we a democracy. We are a Republic. If you are unsure of the difference, you may so investigate. Our citizens simply do not have the right to know everything - the Manhattan Project is just one excellent example.

And, for the very last time, do those who accuse the US of these 'crimes', know the facts, too? Just curious as to their complete access to the data. My family, and to a lesser extent myself, is well-tied to the power grid, i.e., on a first-name basis with members of the power elite, but I would never be so arrogant as to say that I/we know the whole truth or the real reasons for this terrible war. There are probably less than 1,000 people who know 'the deal'.

If, as you suggest, the US does what it wants and the rest of the world be damned, then gas here would be $1.00 per gallon as we would have simply taken Iraq's oil. We would have also nuked Iran and North Korea. But we haven't because the US Government does care, to a decent degree, about world opinion.

As to our invasion of other sovereign nations, you ponder what gives our nation that right which no others enjoy - may I ask about China, Russia, et al.? (That's rhetorical, by the way.) We also have the right to defend ourselves in response to actions or preemptively to possibilities. WWII would be a fine example of the latter.

Lastly, and this may really make your head spin (!), might does, to some degree, make right. We are a superpower because our system of government, our economic model, our work ethic, etc., is far superior to most others. Yikes!



And, thanks, I've had a fine day already, as well. Let's agree to disagree (it doesn't appear that either of us is going to change the other's mind, nor find much common ground) and just talk about cars...
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      05-19-2008, 03:23 PM   #86
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I recieved my $600 (probably in the minority) however my fiance has yet to recieve her check.
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      05-19-2008, 03:36 PM   #87
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My whole view on all this bullsh*t can be summed up here:






btw -$0
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      06-02-2008, 12:39 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colonel1961 View Post
That's quite an array of strawmen arguments you've made. All of them fallacies of logic, of course. I am not my government, nor are we a democracy. We are a Republic. If you are unsure of the difference, you may so investigate. Our citizens simply do not have the right to know everything - the Manhattan Project is just one excellent example.

And, for the very last time, do those who accuse the US of these 'crimes', know the facts, too? Just curious as to their complete access to the data. My family, and to a lesser extent myself, is well-tied to the power grid, i.e., on a first-name basis with members of the power elite, but I would never be so arrogant as to say that I/we know the whole truth or the real reasons for this terrible war. There are probably less than 1,000 people who know 'the deal'.

If, as you suggest, the US does what it wants and the rest of the world be damned, then gas here would be $1.00 per gallon as we would have simply taken Iraq's oil. We would have also nuked Iran and North Korea. But we haven't because the US Government does care, to a decent degree, about world opinion.

As to our invasion of other sovereign nations, you ponder what gives our nation that right which no others enjoy - may I ask about China, Russia, et al.? (That's rhetorical, by the way.) We also have the right to defend ourselves in response to actions or preemptively to possibilities. WWII would be a fine example of the latter.

Lastly, and this may really make your head spin (!), might does, to some degree, make right. We are a superpower because our system of government, our economic model, our work ethic, etc., is far superior to most others. Yikes!



And, thanks, I've had a fine day already, as well. Let's agree to disagree (it doesn't appear that either of us is going to change the other's mind, nor find much common ground) and just talk about cars...
So nice to hear my opinions voiced w/o me doing anything....Our citizens simply do not have the right to know everything....this is one of the largest points....you nor the media need to know everything if you did know we surely would not be the great nation we are today because our enemies would know everything also....Wars are lost by lack of support (mainly hippies hahahaha ) vietnam for instance was lost why? because americans were to busy smoking weed crying about shit they dont even know about..... a vietnamese general wrote that if americans would have bombed for 1-2 more days they were going to surrender....isnt that just a kick in the pants.... thank you hippies for lack of support....hippies piss me off!!! hahaha

when people are told part of the story they try and fill the gaps they dont know with crap and some of that crap gets in there head next thing you know there a democrat that has shit for brains :biggrin:
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