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      04-14-2008, 07:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Call View Post
Here is the irony of Obama's candidacy including the Wright situation, his other ties with homegrown terroists, the bitter comment and really just about everything he has said to date...He is speaking the truth, Liberals are not used to speaking the truth; they never have believed they could win telling the truth; it's just not in their nature.
Telling the truth about what??? That people are voting purely because they are bitter, that it's acceptable to be racist as long as you are against whitey, that this is the only time to be proud of our country?

If you are referring to his political statements outside of his personal/character statements, then that is purely a matter of opinion and I would hardly agree that Obama is "speaking the truth". You need to have more than hope to speak the truth.
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      04-14-2008, 09:00 PM   #46
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I love the political threads, because I really feel like I get to know my fellow Addicts.
I know MPower would be a great guy to have a drink with, but by the fourth round, we'd be talking about each others moms. 0002s would sit there and laugh at us, but would probably agree with what MPower said about my mom. Onehots2k would defend moms everywhere and would politely disagree with MPower. Then 0002s would point and laugh at the both of us. And then I'd tell MPower and 0002s to get a room. 0002s would know a guy that could get a room at a discount.

Race, religion, politics; and some of the comments are beginning to take on personal undertones.
Seriously, don't take anything on this thread seriously.
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      04-14-2008, 09:17 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edge350 View Post
Seriously, don't take anything on this thread seriously.
Well, I would take it semi-seriously, just not personally. I'm not intending to offend anyone, just state an opinion.
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      04-14-2008, 09:23 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edge350 View Post
I love the political threads, because I really feel like I get to know my fellow Addicts.
I know MPower would be a great guy to have a drink with, but by the fourth round, we'd be talking about each others moms. 0002s would sit there and laugh at us, but would probably agree with what MPower said about my mom. Onehots2k would defend moms everywhere and would politely disagree with MPower. Then 0002s would point and laugh at the both of us. And then I'd tell MPower and 0002s to get a room. 0002s would know a guy that could get a room at a discount.

Race, religion, politics; and some of the comments are beginning to take on personal undertones.
Seriously, don't take anything on this thread seriously.
Haha...i love you Edge. I really do. MPower and I have been goin at it since the beginning of time, or 1addicts.com. I've taken the position of laying low on these forums. I already know who the next commander and chief will be. It has been prophesized...and i dont typically believe that stuff. This political roller coaster does make me queazy though. In the end, I will proudly tell my children, if I ever have any, what side of the line their father stood on. They'll read about this in textbooks and probably not understand the relevance. I'll pick them up from school in my electric Bimmer too.
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      04-14-2008, 09:32 PM   #49
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      04-14-2008, 09:41 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
Telling the truth about what??? That people are voting purely because they are bitter, that it's acceptable to be racist as long as you are against whitey, that this is the only time to be proud of our country?

If you are referring to his political statements outside of his personal/character statements, then that is purely a matter of opinion and I would hardly agree that Obama is "speaking the truth". You need to have more than hope to speak the truth.

I dunno, I think his comment was bang on, though I might have picked the words differently. People that can't advance themselves economically feel that they are disadvantaged by the system, and grow bitter. Thus, instead of voting on economic issues, because none of it effects them, they vote on the unimportant divisive things.

Also, on the racist point, I never really heard anything racist from Wright. Wacky yes, and anti-government, but I didn't hear any racism. At any rate, that's water under the bridge at this point.
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      04-14-2008, 10:24 PM   #51
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There is more "water" to flow...Wright is not done but Obama is. I think more than chickens have come home to roost and the barn door is wide open!

Call
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      04-14-2008, 10:42 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Call View Post
There is more "water" to flow...Wright is not done but Obama is. I think more than chickens have come home to roost and the barn door is wide open!

Call
What the flying fuck does this mean?

Seriously, I have no idea what you are implying with this metaphor.
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      04-14-2008, 11:28 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
Can somebody explain to me why this ''Great McCain'' decline to show up to the Compassion Forum last night? Really...im curious.
That's actually a good thing. It shows that he is not beholden to the Ultra Rightist Religious fanatics. This keeps him in the middle and appeals to moderates / independants... The type of people Obama is trying to win over.
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      04-14-2008, 11:30 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
Thats a very interesting opinion. Even if McCain wins against Obama, which I doubt, after 4 years Obama would have built an even stronger movement. I still dont see a lot of Democrats running over to John McCain. I dont see Republicans running to Obama either. They will just stay at home.
If Obama loses to McCain, he will become a pariah like John Kerry.
Nobody likes a loser. Democrats will blame him (and Hillary) for losing a sure thing.
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      04-14-2008, 11:31 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Call View Post
There is more "water" to flow...Wright is not done but Obama is. I think more than chickens have come home to roost and the barn door is wide open!

Call
There's a reason it isn't talked about much in the media anymore. One of the most prominant ministers in the country made perhaps 4 or 5 REALLY dumb statements in the history of his being recorded.

This guy ran the largest UCC congregation in the nation, nearly all of his sermons were reccorded, yet the best anyone can come up with is a handful of out of context video clips of him spewing anti-government nonesense.

I really don't think this little flap will come close to doing him in either. The media is going at him as hard as they can, but there really isn't much substance to any of it. He pointed out that poor people are bitter about being poor, and are easily courted with divisive political tactics as a result. It was a simple statement of fact, and if it were Billary or McCain saying the same, I don't think the media would be making such a big deal out of it, or perhaps even disscussing it. Obama has just been too good, they want to find something to nail him on.

As for that compassion forum, I found the whole thing nauseating. When they started asking about wether or not God intervened in history, I turned it right off. Organized religion is far too powerful in this country, it should have absolutely no place in politics. Politics should really be about logical thought rather than dogmatic belief, but unfortunately that isn't really true even if you take the religion out of it.

If I was McCain, I wouldn't have shown up either. He's an "R" so he'll get the religious extremists by default, if he says nothing. By not showing up, he elevates himself above the fray, giving the appearance of wanting to seperate religion from politics. Also, he would have much more to lose than to gain by showing up. One minor mistatement could cost him big with the pro-theocratic politics wing of the party, which he would need to win in November, assuming he's running against Obama.
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      04-15-2008, 12:23 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82TT6 View Post
Politics should really be about logical thought rather than dogmatic belief, but unfortunately that isn't really true even if you take the religion out of it.
If you say that religion has no place in politics, than what you are really saying is that character should have no place in politics either. The reason religion comes up again and again in politics is because, generally speaking, religion is a good indicator of someone's character.

Also remember: we have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Our country was founded so that we could have these political debates as well as religious discussions when choosing a leader. While, sure, we shouldn't elect a leader based purely on their religious affiliations, it is all the more foolhardy to ignore them outright as well.
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      04-15-2008, 01:00 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptan55 View Post
If Obama loses to McCain, he will become a pariah like John Kerry.
Nobody likes a loser. Democrats will blame him (and Hillary) for losing a sure thing.
You really arent paying attention to what is going on. Obama is no John Kerry and vice-versa. That is a good thing.
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      04-15-2008, 01:13 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptan55 View Post
That's actually a good thing. It shows that he is not beholden to the Ultra Rightist Religious fanatics. This keeps him in the middle and appeals to moderates / independants... The type of people Obama is trying to win over.
That is the BIGGEST Crock. He IS running for President so he should have been there. E82TT nailed it when he said he gets the extremists by default. So instead of ''sealing the deal'' with the moderates/independents he decides not to show. It was smart and dumb on his part...we all know the reason.
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      04-15-2008, 04:03 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
If you say that religion has no place in politics, than what you are really saying is that character should have no place in politics either. The reason religion comes up again and again in politics is because, generally speaking, religion is a good indicator of someone's character.

Also remember: we have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Our country was founded so that we could have these political debates as well as religious discussions when choosing a leader. While, sure, we shouldn't elect a leader based purely on their religious affiliations, it is all the more foolhardy to ignore them outright as well.
Religion has no place in politics. Simply because someone professes to be "religious" does not give them good character, nor does it give them the moral highground to say that their decisions are any better than someone who is agnostic or an atheist.
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      04-15-2008, 04:21 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by rdkind62 View Post
Religion has no place in politics. Simply because someone professes to be "religious" does not give them good character, nor does it give them the moral highground to say that their decisions are any better than someone who is agnostic or an atheist.
+1.
Using religion as a cloak for political manuevering is the oldest trick in the book, "if we don't ____, the gods won't be happy" (sacrifice a virgin, go to war, find some way to kill this one guy). And those who do it WANT the public to believe that they are acting in good faith, by virtue of the fact that they are 'religious'.

And that religion/character rule is applied selectively: does Reverend Wright get a pass because he's religious?
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      04-15-2008, 06:56 AM   #61
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IMHO:

If Obama takes the nomination, he will win against McCain. If Clinton takes the nomination, McCain will win.
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      04-15-2008, 07:39 AM   #62
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I'll pick them up from school in my electric Bimmer too.
Hopefully, they'll be making an M1 by then. :smile:
If not, we'll be reading about electric 1er's vs. electric STI's vs, electric Evo's...
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      04-15-2008, 10:14 AM   #63
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I disagree STRONGLY in terms of religion being in any way assosciated with character. I've heard this argument before, and I think it's a complete crock. Politicians are universally scum-sucking bottom feeders, and I have YET to hear of a politician that will proffess being an agnostic, athesist, dietist, or pandietist. I think when an politician, or anyone else, waves their religion around in an attempt to gain the moral "high ground", it's a reflection of a lack of genuine positive personality characteristics. When the best thing a person can say to express their fundamental moral values is "Well, I go to church ALL the time!" it's a pretty sad statement about their ability to express themselves, as well of their knowledge of themselves as a person, not to mention the actual strength of their morals(if any). Quite frankly, moral people generally don't get into politics, because it's nigh impossible to succeed if you don't cut some corners, and step on some toes.

I don't want to go too in depth into the religion=morality thing, because that's an arguement that tends to offend people, even if it's conducted at an intellectual level. I'll put it this way: There's a reason the only reference to religion in the Constitution is a negative "There shall be no religious test to hold public office.", but we're getting to that point in this country. I don't care WHAT religion any of the canidates are, how devout they are, or what their ministers have to say. My only concern about a politician's religion is that they keep it out of the law. If I wanted to live in a theocracy, I'd move to Iran.

I don't think we should IGNORE a canidate's religious beliefs, particularly if they plan on turning them into laws (ala Huckster). However, I think it's inapropriate to get into a theological discussion with them. Their personal opinion on matter of theology, mythology, and the validity of religious literalism is just not an appropriate one to be having in the public sphere. It has no bearing on a canidate's ability to do anything, other talk theology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
If you say that religion has no place in politics, than what you are really saying is that character should have no place in politics either. The reason religion comes up again and again in politics is because, generally speaking, religion is a good indicator of someone's character.

Also remember: we have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Our country was founded so that we could have these political debates as well as religious discussions when choosing a leader. While, sure, we shouldn't elect a leader based purely on their religious affiliations, it is all the more foolhardy to ignore them outright as well.
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      04-15-2008, 10:25 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by E82TT6 View Post
"There shall be no religious test to hold public office."
Article and Section or Amendment for the above quote, please.
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      04-15-2008, 10:27 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by chriskurn View Post
IMHO:

If Obama takes the nomination, he will win against McCain. If Clinton takes the nomination, McCain will win.
I agree.

I hate Hillary with a fiery, burning passion. I wouldn't vote for her if she were running against Lucifer. Infact, I think he'd probably hold the moral high ground!


As for Obama vs McCain, I've ALWAYS really liked McCain. He's been a favorite of mine for a long time now. I don't always agree with him on everything, but he says what the thinks, means what he says, and honestly wants to do what's best for the country. However, over the past couple years he's done a lot of pandering to W, which makes me question him a bit. I don't see how he could be even REMOTELY friendly to the guy after what he did to him in primary.

I've always liked a lot of what Obama has said in terms of depolarizing politics. He runs WAY too far to left on economics for me, but he has relatively sane positions on most of the issues. I don't know if he can back up the talk, I don't know if he's a straight-forward as he seems. Everyone I know that's met him personally was impressed, but I never have.

In other words, I'd have to think about it in a McCain/Obama race, and I'd want to hear a lot more about both of their on Iraq and government run economic/social programs to make a decision.


Coming back into the USA from Europe, I felt like I was entering a third world police state! The Customs/Immigration BS is worthless. Spending hours yelling at tourists in a language they barely understand, and rifling through their personal belongings isn't the best way to welcome them into the "land of the free", and it isn't going to stop ANYONE who really wants to cause harm from doing so. There was an immigration employee YELLING at a couple of asian kids at passport control, telling them that if they couldn't answer his questions, they could go home. They obviously spoke almost no english.

Then you get out of the airport and onto the roads... They are in a horrible state of disrepair, everything is filthy, people drive like complete morons, and there are police EVERYWHERE but they seem to do nothing but collect revenue for their municipality. I think we need some big shakeups in terms of the way things are run, but Obama is too much of a socialist for me generally speaking.
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      04-15-2008, 10:30 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colonel1961 View Post
Article and Section or Amendment for the above quote, please.
Article 6.

Here's the whole thing article, with the quote bolded. It's one of the short ones, no sub-sections :-):

"All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

This is the ONLY mention in the Constitution regarding religion, theology, or god/gods save Ammendment 1.
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