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View Poll Results: Who will hold the highest office in the land??
Hilary Clinton 18 11.32%
Barack Obama 84 52.83%
John McCain 51 32.08%
Mitt Romney 6 3.77%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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      02-10-2008, 04:24 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SR08NOVA View Post
No one has been 'herded into a pen’.
Really? You attempted to herd the entire forum into the liberal pen right here (including me):

Quote:
Originally Posted by SR08NOVA View Post
XXXXXX didn't say the forum was full of Democrats, he said it was full of liberals, a comment with which I tend to agree.
The person who made the original comment was clearly being light-hearted about it, and joking. You don't show any signs of joking or being light-hearted. You are putting people in the liberal pen.

And then there is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SR08NOVA View Post
Even better is their fondness for being deemed as 'open-minded'. Hmmm….so I guess that would make conservatives what....close-minded? The arrogance and elitist mentality are astounding.
Oh please. I was clearly being inclusive of Republicans, Democrats, AND independents on this board when I used the term 'open-minded'. This stuff about conservatives and close-minded has nothing to do with anything anybody has said on this board. But you are very clear at calling people (including myself) who use the term 'open-minded' to be have an "arrogance and elitist mentality". That's bull. Here is my full statement that was fully inclusive, and clearly NOT an attempt at an implied attack on conservatives:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
XXXXX, even our strongly Pro (Republican) Mitt Romney supporter, XXXXX, shows his independent mindedness with his comments about (Democrat) (Independent?) Joe Lieberman

I think a better word than "Liberal" to describe most of us on this board, would be "open-minded". :iono:

PS- sorry mikeo, I respect the need to keep this from becoming personal, but I just can't let this guy's games go unanswered.
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      02-10-2008, 04:32 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by SR08NOVA View Post
Any reasonable and learned person would draw a clear distinction between how the liberally-biased mainstream media has relentously painted Republicans as gun-toting, Bible-thumping, racist, biggots, homophobes, and war-mongers versus my assessment of the left's social policy failures.

Sorry, but unfair characterizations and personal attacks hardly equate to evaluating historical courses of action and outcomes.
vilification is vilification. All you did with this post was to add more vilification.
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      02-10-2008, 11:39 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SR08NOVA View Post
Any reasonable and learned person would draw a clear distinction between how the liberally-biased mainstream media has relentously painted Republicans as gun-toting, Bible-thumping, racist, biggots, homophobes, and war-mongers versus my assessment of the left's social policy failures.

Sorry, but unfair characterizations and personal attacks hardly equate to evaluating historical courses of action and outcomes.
SR08NOVA, you're invoking the stereotype of the mainstream media, conveniently, to draw the conversation away from a reasonable discussion of ideas. None of the 'reasonable and learned' readers of this webpage referred to your party that way. But time and time again, those on the right fall back on this when the going gets tough.
Fine. Lets look at the criteria you outlined. Here's what you wrote:

"Okay, so perhaps ‘socially liberal’ refers to abortion, gay-rights, gun control, and the man-made global warming hoax, but in my mind, these are selfish pet concerns that pale in comparison with far more critical federal issues such as the economy, energy, immigration, and terrorism."

Using these "critical federal issues":
(1) We have the largest, most expensive, debt-amassing government in our history; (2) we have contributed nothing to the conversation on energy policy on the national or (even more troubling) the international level; (3) we have no semblance of solution for immigration and (3) we have FAILED to complete our mission in Afghanistan, the launching pad for the attacks of 9/11 and Osama Bin Laden remains at large. We've opted instead to run a fool's errand in Iraq, despite the warning years earlier about that country: "you break it, you buy it". All this WITH your party in control, essentially unchallenged, for most of the past seven years.

"Social policy failures" of the Democrats and the faults of the "mainstream media" are the two rocks that "reasonable and learned" Republicans cower behind rather than admit that their leadership has utterly and completely FAILED. And come November, the AMERICAN PEOPLE, not the liberals, is going to drive that message home. That's the reason a candidate from a racial minority with limited experience is going to wipe the floor with the Republican nominee. Obama has no virtue other that the fact that he speaks well and
has his finger on the pulse of the nation. I like McCain, and these aren't problems that he created, but his party has it coming. Come November, McCain is going to take one last beating for what he believes in.
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      02-10-2008, 11:43 PM   #92
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Looks like Clinton basically gave up on the February states. Obama cleaned up shop this entire weekend. Won all 4 states if I'm not mistaken. Ohio and Texas should be interesting.
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      02-11-2008, 12:55 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edge350
Using these "critical federal issues":
(1) We have the largest, most expensive, debt-amassing government in our history;
The same thing was true during the FDR administrations but that certainly did not destroy the country.

Listen, I will stand by anyone in the fight to control government spending for a number of reasons. There are many improvements that we could accomplish if we reigned in ridiculous spending. This, in part, is why, though I have numerous disagreements with John McCain, I can at least take solace in the fact that he has been the most consistent candidate (on either party) when it comes to reigning in government spending.

But let's not start changing history and making this imbalanced budget out to be something new and completely unique to the Republican party. Debt has been something that has been apart of the American government for centuries and there is no way that you can claim that Democrats are immune to this purely by point to a couple of years of Clinton administration (while under the balance of a Republican Congress, mind you).

Quote:
Originally Posted by edge350
(2) we have contributed nothing to the conversation on energy policy on the national or (even more troubling) the international level;
I'll agree with you here but don't know how Democrats are the ones to point us in that direction. If you are discussing purely environmental issues, the Democrats might be stronger on that particular issue (regardless of its potential effect on the economy). However, if you discussing energy independence, there is no question that Republicans, in general, will be the stronger party for that particular issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edge350
(3) we have no semblance of solution for immigration
Again, this is nothing that is immune to Democrats (unless, of course, amnesty is your idea of a "solution").

Quote:
Originally Posted by edge350
(3) we have FAILED to complete our mission in Afghanistan, the launching pad for the attacks of 9/11 and Osama Bin Laden remains at large.
I can not necessarily disagree with you here, I simply have not studied Afghanistan enough on my own to make an educated argument either way.

HOWEVER...

Quote:
Originally Posted by edge350[
We've opted instead to run a fool's errand in Iraq, despite the warning years earlier about that country: "you break it, you buy it".
So, according your recommendation, we should always honor the "break it, you buy it" rule but ignore the security intelligence reports from multiple sources and countries that state the significance of the threat...

Iraq is what Iraq is and it is a pickle that no one wants to be in. But we are and things are finally taking the turn for the better. The question then becomes if you are intensely opposed to the war, then the list of candidates for you has fallen to none. Barack can claim how smart he was to vote against the war but he is still the person who, when pushed, will not commit to leaving Iraq. The same applies for Hillary.

I am by no means claiming that the Bush Presidency is perfect and that all of his decisions are immune from criticism. But it is extremely important to remember that Bush is not a carbon copy of every other Republican in the world, just as it is important to remember that not every Democrat is a carbon copy of Carter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edge350
That's the reason a candidate from a racial minority with limited experience is going to wipe the floor with the Republican nominee.
Makes you wonder then how McCain leads in all the national polls against Hillary and is well within the margin of error against Obama. I'm not saying that Obama would not win, but I am definitely not buying this "wipe the floor" argument. Not only is it inaccurate but it also lacks a reasonably rational stance.
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      02-11-2008, 02:10 AM   #94
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SR08NOVA proposed "critical federal issues". I accepted and applied them to the administration in place for the past several years. The administration, and the party that it represents, has failed the nation, horribly. Utterly and completely. Simply ceding on some points and then weakly claiming that the Democrats may not offer an alternative ignores my main argument: Republicans, by their own definitions of "good government", have failed. They do not deserve to continue directing the nation further into the abyss. The Democrats, no matter how divisive and detestable (Clinton) or inexperienced (Obama) will benefit from the nation's discontent.

"But let's not start changing history and making this imbalanced budget out to be something new and completely unique to the Republican party."
Fiscal responsbility is a central tenet of the Republican party. You can't fuck that up and then walk away claiming it's hard work. That's the reason a lot of people voted for you in the first place. You HAVE to get that right.

"However, if you discussing energy independence, there is no question that Republicans, in general, will be the stronger party for that particular issue."
How close have we gotten to energy independence under this administration? What brilliant strategy is the right proposing to correct this problem? If the Republicans are the stronger party, there must be some evidence to that end. Where? Lying untapped under ANWAR? You're making an assertion, not an argument. That's just silly.

"So, according your recommendation, we should always honor the "break it, you buy it" rule but ignore the security intelligence reports from multiple sources and countries that state the significance of the threat..."
The "you break it, you buy it" rule regarding Iraq was established under the FIRST Bush presidency. There was a reason Schwartkopf wasn't rolling down the streets of Baghdad after the first Iraq war. They had the manpower, the support of the Iraqi people in the form of an uprising, the coalition of nations, the momentum of victory, and they got right up to the Iraqi border...and passed. There was a reason why. You can't re-write or simply ignore the lessons of that experience. The first Bush was a good and reasonable man. There's a very good reason he passed on this "significant threat".

"But we are and things are finally taking the turn for the better."
WILL THE REAL IRAQI GOVERNMENT PLEASE STAND UP? Because until there is a governing body and the rule of law without American tanks and guns and soldiers, things aren't getting better, things are just quiet. And I don't think we invaded Iraq with the intention of establishing quiet. We invaded to establish a government.
People have lost their jobs for much smaller indiscretions. Why should the Republicans keep theirs?

"But it is extremely important to remember that Bush is not a carbon copy of every other Republican in the world, just as it is important to remember that not every Democrat is a carbon copy of Carter."
I agree. And that pluralism is the only hope for the recovery of the Republican Party (something that is certainly in the nation's interest). But that argument isn't going to win you anything in November.

Reasonable rational stance for the "wipe the floor" stance: voter turn-out.
The only outlet in the media that I've heard actively talking about it is Fox News, because they're worried. Tom DeLay was on television Sunday morning admitting that the Democrats network on the ground is far advanced of ANYTHING HE'S EVER SEEN (those are his words, not mine). Take as much solace in national polls as you can, while you can. In every caucus and primary thus far, Democratic turnout has dwarfed Republican turn-out. You can ignore that for only so long...

I apologize for the length. I don't mean to hijack the thread.
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      02-11-2008, 03:22 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SR08NOVA View Post
Any reasonable and learned person would draw a clear distinction between how the liberally-biased mainstream media has relentously painted Republicans as gun-toting, Bible-thumping, racist, biggots, homophobes, and war-mongers versus my assessment of the left's social policy failures.

Sorry, but unfair characterizations and personal attacks hardly equate to evaluating historical courses of action and outcomes.
-I'm not directly addressing you, or the quote above, I am just making a comment (or two, or three) about a certain part of it because it struck something in me. I'm typing this up for my own reasons, not to counter any point you've made. I actually quite agree with you regarding the media's stereotype of Republicans and their party.

I've lived with and among republicans (and unaffiliated right wing'ers) my whole life. Though not every one of them was a gun carrier, or bigoted, war mongering, or even religious, many of them indeed fit the liberal-biased media's stereotype. I'm not making any statement for/against them, in fact I believe sometimes a little faith, belligerence, or a steadfast grip to old fashioned values can be a good thing, deserving it's place in modern society. It's just when those more positive points (or ANY of the negative ones) interfere with the lives of people who do not share the same view, including people outside this country, that those very stereotypes cease to remain innocuous, and become rather counter productive and, I personally believe, hinder social and -sometimes- economic progression (explanation: for another time).


Most conservative (Republican or otherwise) people I've encountered were reasonably kind, well mannered and thoughtful, even to those who did not share their skin color. However, when shown any thing they did not fully accept or understand, like say, some kids with nappy hair and baggy pants sulking at a street corner, more often than not, an unending stream of racial remarks, slander, and choruses of "They aught to draw and quarter people who dress like that" tend to permeate the air. Of course, sometimes a simple "they look like that because they need Jesus in their lives" or "Sure we have the freedom of free speech, but that doesn't give people the right to say whatever they want" pops up in more suburban environments. Comments like that do nothing to rid them of such negative stereotypes, despite their good intentions.:biggrin:



-not to say that i haven't met plenty of liberal democrats who fulfill their own stereotypes. I knew a guy from Sacramento who nearly pissed himself when my dad showed him his Glock 20 semi-auto. He was soooo amazingly irrational about that thing, it was hilarious.

Random thoughts and notes:
Just to mess with the stereotype labeling, I own a Glock 20 as well. I am not ashamed of it. Great gun, plenty of fun. (six inch diameter fire ball at night) Go ahead and read-into the remarks I made about some (by no means all) Conservative people any way you want. I honestly did not try to color my statements any particular hue. I just called it as I saw it. Most of those were quotes from my mother and step father, the last one came from my mother during a recent phone call. Don't think I'm trying to talk above anybody by using a somewhat diverse vocabulary, I'm a high school grad who picks this stuff up off of Star Trek.)



------
on topic:

Things are looking better for Obama all the time. I guess the all the hype about "Obama Mania" and such has more substance than some early posters perhaps thought, honestly, myself included. This has of course further fueled my belief of a '08 candidacy and eventually office. My hope of an Obama election remains steadfast regardless of this recent news.
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      02-11-2008, 04:20 AM   #96
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Timothy McVeigh was a conservative. People who plant bombs at abortion clinic and murder doctors? Conservatives. People who run up more debt in six years than the country did in its first 200? That'd be Ronald Reagan and his conservatives. People who believe the government can and should torture people? Conservatives. People who think the government can and should imprison people without trial and without judicial oversight of any kind -- forever, if they want to? Conservatives. People who lose 18 billion dollars of Iraq reconstruction money, much of it shipped in cash on pallets? Conservatives. People who don't care what kind of planet we leave to future generations? Conservatives. people who have the worst record on every single measure of economic prosperity throughout the country's history? Conservatives.

The failure of conservatism is comprehensive.
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      02-11-2008, 08:10 AM   #97
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This thread is really not just about the candidates, it's a political thread so don't be concerned about being off topic when stating political viewpoints. And these past few posts, regardless of party preference, are thoughtful and passionately stated. And above all done without name calling or casting aspersions on others.

This is great stuff people--we have our own American political debate happening right here on 1Addicts. And I am learning by moderating this thread, so keep it coming.
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      02-11-2008, 08:12 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethchan View Post
Timothy McVeigh was a conservative. People who plant bombs at abortion clinic and murder doctors? Conservatives. People who run up more debt in six years than the country did in its first 200? That'd be Ronald Reagan and his conservatives. People who believe the government can and should torture people? Conservatives. People who think the government can and should imprison people without trial and without judicial oversight of any kind -- forever, if they want to? Conservatives. People who lose 18 billion dollars of Iraq reconstruction money, much of it shipped in cash on pallets? Conservatives. People who don't care what kind of planet we leave to future generations? Conservatives. people who have the worst record on every single measure of economic prosperity throughout the country's history? Conservatives.

The failure of conservatism is comprehensive.
I don't consider that consevatism. By the conventional definition of the word, the Republican "Party Line" positions are actually further to the LEFT than anything out of the Democratic party.

Go back in time, and tell a REAL Conservative like Teddy Rosevelt that you want to REWRITE the constituion to TAKE AWAY people's rights for religious reasons, and I'm sure you'd get an earful.

How about the effective suspension of the 4th ammendments?

Our foolish nation-building excercise in Iraq? How we got there, I don't really understand. If I could see before we went in that in would end up in the kind of situation we're facing now, how could a politician surrounded by PHD advisors not draw the same conclusion that I, and every intelligent independant minded person I know came to? What's going on there is an inexcusable failure, and it has nothing to do with conservative or liberal.

Torture. Not EVEN going to elaborate.

MAJOR Gov't size increases. And I'd like to politely ask that we not try to draw WW2 comparisons, they simply aren't valid. We aren't in WW2.

Immigration. Deport them all? Can we be pragmatists rather than idealogues? Whatever happened to give us your tired, sick, and poor? I agree that we need SERIOUS border security upgrades, but that is just the TIP of the iceburg. We also need to know and document EVERYONE who has managed to sneak in, and quite frankly, unless they have some incentive to cooperate, that won't happen.
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      02-11-2008, 09:59 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethchan View Post
Timothy McVeigh was a conservative. People who plant bombs at abortion clinic and murder doctors? Conservatives. People who run up more debt in six years than the country did in its first 200? That'd be Ronald Reagan and his conservatives. People who believe the government can and should torture people? Conservatives. People who think the government can and should imprison people without trial and without judicial oversight of any kind -- forever, if they want to? Conservatives. People who lose 18 billion dollars of Iraq reconstruction money, much of it shipped in cash on pallets? Conservatives. People who don't care what kind of planet we leave to future generations? Conservatives. people who have the worst record on every single measure of economic prosperity throughout the country's history? Conservatives.

The failure of conservatism is comprehensive.
Probably the most ill-conceived post I have ever read. It seems like ever since Nixon praised the open-mindedness of this thread that nearly every following post has ranted on and on without a whim of balanced thought.
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      02-11-2008, 10:02 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
This thread is really not just about the candidates, it's a political thread so don't be concerned about being off topic when stating political viewpoints. And these past few posts, regardless of party preference, are thoughtful and passionately stated. And above all done without name calling or casting aspersions on others.

This is great stuff people--we have our own American political debate happening right here on 1Addicts. And I am learning by moderating this thread, so keep it coming.
I learned a lot too!! Especially when to keep my big fat mouth SHUT.
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      02-11-2008, 01:43 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watchesfromshadows View Post
Random thoughts and notes:
Just to mess with the stereotype labeling, I own a Glock 20 as well. I am not ashamed of it. Great gun, plenty of fun. (six inch diameter fire ball at night)
I'm with you there. I've been labeled a liberal by some folks here, but with one gun per each person living in my household, I definitely don't fit into their stereotype they would like me to fit into.

I don't think there is any problem with anyone owning guns where I live, as long as they don't have a criminal record. That's why it was such a good thing when Pres. Ford pardoned me. No criminal record.
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      02-11-2008, 01:47 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by MPower View Post
Probably the most ill-conceived post I have ever read. It seems like ever since Nixon praised the open-mindedness of this thread that nearly every following post has ranted on and on without a whim of balanced thought.
We had a good conversation while it lasted MPower. Everything has to end sometime. Thanks for the debate.
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      02-11-2008, 01:59 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethchan View Post
Timothy McVeigh was a conservative. People who plant bombs at abortion clinic and murder doctors? Conservatives....
There is an inherent problem with your approach. You can't just select certain members in a group, and then make broad conclusions about the entire group. In every group there will always be fringe elements that don't represent the whole, like Timothy McVeigh, or clinic bombers.

Timothy McVeigh no more represents the right, than Earth First! represents the left.

It is a logical fallacy to say individual members of a group proves characteristics of an entire group. Here is a simple example of the logical fallacy you presented:

Some BMW's are 135i's.
Some BMW's are coupes.
Therefore, all BMW's are 135i coupes.

It just doesn't work.

I think you've gone too far.
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      02-11-2008, 02:09 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
Looks like Clinton basically gave up on the February states. Obama cleaned up shop this entire weekend. Won all 4 states if I'm not mistaken. Ohio and Texas should be interesting.
don't forget the Virgin Islands. Obama took all 3 delegates there too. It's sort of funny that it matters, but interestingly enough, they may be the 3 that take him over the top....

If Obama takes either Ohio or Texas, the whole super-delegate thing may become a non-issue because Obama may end up leading both the elected delegate count, and the total delegate count. Then the only thing left would be figuring out what to do with the delegates for Florida and Minnesota. [EDIT: Strike Minnesota. I meant the other cold state that starts with an M that is up there near Canada. Michigan. DOH!!]
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      02-11-2008, 02:24 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
don't forget the Virgin Islands. Obama took all 3 delegates there too. It's sort of funny that it matters, but interestingly enough, they may be the 3 that take him over the top....

If Obama takes either Ohio or Texas, the whole super-delegate thing may become a non-issue because Obama may end up leading both the elected delegate count, and the total delegate count. Then the only thing left would be figuring out what to do with the delegates for Florida and Minnesota.
I dont think the Democratic Party is going to budge on Minnesota and FL. I'm ashamed to say I live here now. Obama needs to win either 1 of Ohio or Minnesota. It has got to be a no-brainer that he would be the best at going against McCain. I'm of the believe that the super-delegates can change their mind at the very last minute if they wanted. I really hope they're thinking.
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      02-11-2008, 02:30 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
Probably the most ill-conceived post I have ever read. It seems like ever since Nixon praised the open-mindedness of this thread that nearly every following post has ranted on and on without a whim of balanced thought.
Once again, the wounded Republican routine. Some sunny day, maybe the rest of us will find this "balance" that only the right possesses...in the mean time, it seems you've grown too weary to continue.
What a cop-out!

Don't feel too bad: the Clintons' wrote the book on feigning personal injury to duck an argument. Even there, you're finishing second.
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      02-11-2008, 05:28 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edge350 View Post
Once again, the wounded Republican routine. Some sunny day, maybe the rest of us will find this "balance" that only the right possesses...in the mean time, it seems you've grown too weary to continue.
What a cop-out!

Don't feel too bad: the Clintons' wrote the book on feigning personal injury to duck an argument. Even there, you're finishing second.
What ever you say mate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nixon
We had a good conversation while it lasted MPower. Everything has to end sometime. Thanks for the debate.
It was a pleasure. :smile:

On a side note, I will be eagerly watching McCain to see what he does. I have a feeling he won't make "uniting the base" a huge priority and may just continue on his given course.
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      02-11-2008, 08:55 PM   #108
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"What ever you say mate..."

Perfect. I think we'll be hearing that a lot from Republicans come November.
Well, I respect your loyalty and you have excellent taste in cars.
No hard feelings. At the end of the day, we all wave the same flag.
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      02-11-2008, 09:02 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edge350 View Post
"What ever you say mate..."

Perfect. I think we'll be hearing that a lot from Republicans come November.
Well, I respect your loyalty and you have excellent taste in cars.
No hard feelings. At the end of the day, we all wave the same flag.
I honestly cannot wait until November. Some people just wont know what to do with themselves....they just wont be a able to stomach it if ''you know who'' wins. Too bad for them. I have a strong feeling this country will never be the same come November.
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      02-12-2008, 02:38 AM   #110
watchesfromshadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehots2k View Post
I honestly cannot wait until November. Some people just wont know what to do with themselves....they just wont be a able to stomach it if ''you know who'' wins. Too bad for them. I have a strong feeling this country will never be the same come November.

They'll be even more surprised come 2012. 4 years after a democratic "Muslim" was elected president, pulled us out of Iraq and negotiated with Iran instead of blowing it up and America is still standing. No nuclear holocaust, no major economic crash, no Jihadi's parading down main street USA, gays, tree huggers and immigrants haven't toppled society, no four horsemen of the Apocalypse, nothing.
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