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View Poll Results: Who will hold the highest office in the land??
Hilary Clinton 18 11.32%
Barack Obama 84 52.83%
John McCain 51 32.08%
Mitt Romney 6 3.77%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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      02-03-2008, 01:14 PM   #23
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I recommend that you read this MPower:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200712/obama

Keep in mind that this was written before the Iowa caucuses. It really gets down to ALL the reasons including race why people are flocking to him.

One of my favorite parts was,


"Consider this hypothetical. It’s November 2008. A young Pakistani Muslim is watching television and sees that this man—Barack Hussein Obama—is the new face of America. In one simple image, America’s soft power has been ratcheted up not a notch, but a logarithm. A brown-skinned man whose father was an African, who grew up in Indonesia and Hawaii, who attended a majority-Muslim school as a boy, is now the alleged enemy. If you wanted the crudest but most effective weapon against the demonization of America that fuels Islamist ideology, Obama’s face gets close. It proves them wrong about what America is in ways no words can."


"The paradox is that Hillary makes far more sense if you believe that times are actually pretty good. If you believe that America’s current crisis is not a deep one, if you think that pragmatism alone will be enough to navigate a world on the verge of even more religious warfare, if you believe that today’s ideological polarization is not dangerous, and that what appears dark today is an illusion fostered by the lingering trauma of the Bush presidency, then the argument for Obama is not that strong. Clinton will do. And a Clinton-Giuliani race could be as invigorating as it is utterly predictable.
But if you sense, as I do, that greater danger lies ahead, and that our divisions and recent history have combined to make the American polity and constitutional order increasingly vulnerable, then the calculus of risk changes. Sometimes, when the world is changing rapidly, the greater risk is caution. Close-up in this election campaign, Obama is unlikely. From a distance, he is necessary......"
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      02-04-2008, 11:45 AM   #24
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What an interesting split in Democratic families:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22986410/page/2/
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      02-05-2008, 08:58 PM   #25
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In case you're still undecided on who gets your vote, take this quiz:

http://www.electoralcompass.com/

Though I know who I'm voting for, it was still spot on.
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      02-05-2008, 10:57 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehots2k
A young Pakistani Muslim is watching television and sees that this man—Barack Hussein Obama—is the new face of America. In one simple image, America’s soft power has been ratcheted up not a notch, but a logarithm.
So, we should decide who our President is because we are afraid of what other citizens may think? We should never elect a President to appease the rest of the world.
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      02-05-2008, 11:09 PM   #27
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Imagine a leader of a Muslim nation watching and sees that this man- Obama - is the new face of America... Then he decides that maybe these next four years would be a good time to develop his nuclear weapons and obliterate Israel like he told his citizens that he would. Hey i guess since he thought the holocaust never happened maybe he should have one of his own.

I don't think any President should ever be elected because of a religion they are a part of. It scares the hell out of me and I dodge bullets for a living.

Not saying that this would be the case, just food for thought against the Muslim nations will love us arguement.
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      02-05-2008, 11:30 PM   #28
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Wow, you guys look waaay too much into that. Lets have this chat back in November...k? Thanks.
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      02-06-2008, 12:11 AM   #29
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Well, onehots2k, I will give you this:

While I am very opposed to a multitude of Obama's policies, McCain has lost nearly all of my trust. He has easily become my least favorite candidate (and that is putting it lightly). Therefore, if McCain does become the Republican nominee, he would have to select a fabulous VP candidate to get my vote. And if not, I sincerely hope that Obama wins the Democrat primary. I could not tolerate either McCain or Clinton in the White House.

This is really a very strange year and I am really disappointed with the way the Republican party is operating right now. And this may translate into a Democrat vote if us Republicans allow our party to be hijacked by McCain.
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      02-06-2008, 01:08 AM   #30
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Today:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
While I am very opposed to a multitude of Obama's policies
Earlier in this thread:

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Originally Posted by MPower View Post
I can't say anything Obama because he doesn't seem to stand for anything except get out of Iraq.
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Originally Posted by MPower View Post
And, again, the problem Obama is that on critical issues (like immigration and healthcare) he says he has ideas and generally supports a certain position. But he does not state specifics. I have no idea what his healthcare plan actually is.
Huh? You didn't know anything about Obama's policies, now you are opposed to a multitude of his policies.

Did you read up on him or something? What specifically didn't you like?
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      02-06-2008, 01:17 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
Well, onehots2k, I will give you this:

While I am very opposed to a multitude of Obama's policies, McCain has lost nearly all of my trust. He has easily become my least favorite candidate (and that is putting it lightly). Therefore, if McCain does become the Republican nominee, he would have to select a fabulous VP candidate to get my vote. And if not, I sincerely hope that Obama wins the Democrat primary. I could not tolerate either McCain or Clinton in the White House.

This is really a very strange year and I am really disappointed with the way the Republican party is operating right now. And this may translate into a Democrat vote if us Republicans allow our party to be hijacked by McCain.
After tonight, I'm throwing all my chips on McCain. I think Huck might be positioning himself for VP. At the very least, I think he'll come up as #2.

It looks like Obama will come up ahead in delegate count for tonight, current projections are by 5-10, which I think is a clear victory, given where he was expected be handily defeated.

My guess on the Democratic side is that it will come down to Super Delegates... we'll see...
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      02-06-2008, 01:37 AM   #32
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Imagine a leader of a Muslim nation watching and sees that this man- Obama - is the new face of America... Then he decides that maybe these next four years would be a good time to develop his nuclear weapons and obliterate Israel like he told his citizens that he would. Hey i guess since he thought the holocaust never happened maybe he should have one of his own.

I don't think any President should ever be elected because of a religion they are a part of. It scares the hell out of me and I dodge bullets for a living.

Not saying that this would be the case, just food for thought against the Muslim nations will love us arguement.
You are aware that Obama is a born-again Christian, right? You aren't getting suckered in by the internet hack jobs saying otherwise, are you? But to the real point---->

Mike McConnell, head of the entire US intel community, testified in front of Congress today and said this about stopping Iranian nukes:

"the only plausible way to prevent Iran from producing such weapons was “an Iranian political decision to abandon a nuclear weapons objective.”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/wa...1e1&ei=5087%0A

So even the top dog under the Bush administration realizes that the Iranian nuke issue will not be resolved through military means. It has to be solved with a "political decision". Dreams of "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb -- Bomb, Bomb Iran" and using military power, will not achieve this strategic goal.

The benefit of Obama is that he is the only candidate that has dedicated himself to actively advancing political talks to achieve the exact sort of "political decision" that Bush's head of National Intelligence talks about. None of the other candidates have a plan to open talks to achieve this political solution that will stop Iran from building nukes. We talked to Russia, we can talk to Iran.

Far from lying down and letting Iran build nukes as you suggest, Obama has a plan to actively and agressively stop the Iranians from building nukes through direct and immediate talks. He isn't going to sit in office launching threats that do nothing to achieve the strategic political victories that the US desperately needs to attain our goal of keeping Iran from building nukes.

Obama is going to actively go out and win the political battles with Iran.


The added benefit of Obama, is that Iran has a better chance of listening to HIM, and coming to a political resolution with him compared to any of the other candidates who have repeatedly threatened Iran with attacks.

Iran isn't going to bow to the will of a US President that issues military threats all the time, any more than Iran has bowed to the will of George Bush over the last 7 years. More of the same isn't going to get us anywhere with Iran.

How do you see any of the other candidates resolving the Iranian nuke problem better than Obama? What will they do to achieve “an Iranian political decision to abandon a nuclear weapons objective” that McConnell testified about?
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      02-06-2008, 01:50 AM   #33
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I'd additionally add that the latest national intelligence estimate states that the Iranian Nuke program was dissassembled.

This isn't to say we should ignore them. They're clearly a huge threat.
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      02-06-2008, 10:00 AM   #34
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Huh? You didn't know anything about Obama's policies, now you are opposed to a multitude of his policies.

Did you read up on him or something? What specifically didn't you like?
As Romney has looked less and less likely, I have been trying to invest a little more time in finding out what Obama is all about (my dad happens to love him, so I am hearing a lot of the same stuff from him as well). Anyway, last night I listened to his speech and a couple of things really struck me:

1. He is eerily similar to John F. Kennedy in his mannerisms and the way he talks. My dad says that the reason he really likes Obama is because he doesn't smile every damn second like Hillary does. Nevertheless, he is a brilliant speaker and that is probably why most people eat the grass when they see him.

2. He is never very concrete on an issue but the stances he does make, I am not pleased with:
  • He keeps pounding the "I voted against the war" card and I am fearful he would accept defeat in Iraq.
  • He is opposed to tax cuts on businesses and, to a certain extent, individuals.
  • He claims a support for a better foreign policy (need more detail on what that means).
  • He certainly would not be as strong on terrorism as Clinton or McCain would be.
  • His health care plan is hugely vague and I don't think he has a prayer of implementing it without raising taxes.
  • Pro-choice. Enough said.
It's not a lot that he mentioned and, this morning, I am failing to remember more of what he said, but I still will try and research more about him.
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      02-06-2008, 10:28 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
You are aware that Obama is a born-again Christian, right? You aren't getting suckered in by the internet hack jobs saying otherwise, are you? But to the real point---->

Mike McConnell, head of the entire US intel community, testified in front of Congress today and said this about stopping Iranian nukes:

"the only plausible way to prevent Iran from producing such weapons was “an Iranian political decision to abandon a nuclear weapons objective.”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/wa...1e1&ei=5087%0A

So even the top dog under the Bush administration realizes that the Iranian nuke issue will not be resolved through military means. It has to be solved with a "political decision". Dreams of "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb -- Bomb, Bomb Iran" and using military power, will not achieve this strategic goal.

The benefit of Obama is that he is the only candidate that has dedicated himself to actively advancing political talks to achieve the exact sort of "political decision" that Bush's head of National Intelligence talks about. None of the other candidates have a plan to open talks to achieve this political solution that will stop Iran from building nukes. We talked to Russia, we can talk to Iran.

Far from lying down and letting Iran build nukes as you suggest, Obama has a plan to actively and agressively stop the Iranians from building nukes through direct and immediate talks. He isn't going to sit in office launching threats that do nothing to achieve the strategic political victories that the US desperately needs to attain our goal of keeping Iran from building nukes.

Obama is going to actively go out and win the political battles with Iran.


The added benefit of Obama, is that Iran has a better chance of listening to HIM, and coming to a political resolution with him compared to any of the other candidates who have repeatedly threatened Iran with attacks.

Iran isn't going to bow to the will of a US President that issues military threats all the time, any more than Iran has bowed to the will of George Bush over the last 7 years. More of the same isn't going to get us anywhere with Iran.

How do you see any of the other candidates resolving the Iranian nuke problem better than Obama? What will they do to achieve “an Iranian political decision to abandon a nuclear weapons objective” that McConnell testified about?
Never in any post that I have made did I suggest the solution was to be a military one, quite the contrary actually. As I stated about a month or so ago in the old thread; the intelligence indicates that a military action wouldn't be needed as a victory/real pressure would come through halting all trade with Iran as they aren't really a self-sustaining nation.

The point I made was more to counteract the muslims will love us for our president's name arguement made in an earlier post. Of course he is a born-again Christian, he wouldn't be an electable candidate otherwise.
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      02-06-2008, 11:05 AM   #36
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Never in any post that I have made did I suggest the solution was to be a military one, quite the contrary actually. As I stated about a month or so ago in the old thread; the intelligence indicates that a military action wouldn't be needed as a victory/real pressure would come through halting all trade with Iran as they aren't really a self-sustaining nation.

The point I made was more to counteract the muslims will love us for our president's name arguement made in an earlier post. Of course he is a born-again Christian, he wouldn't be an electable candidate otherwise.
I never said Muslims will love us because of that. I posted that quote to put things into perspective. You apparently did not read the link I posted.
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      02-06-2008, 11:33 AM   #37
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Never in any post that I have made did I suggest the solution was to be a military one, quite the contrary actually. As I stated about a month or so ago in the old thread; the intelligence indicates that a military action wouldn't be needed as a victory/real pressure would come through halting all trade with Iran as they aren't really a self-sustaining nation.

The point I made was more to counteract the muslims will love us for our president's name arguement made in an earlier post. Of course he is a born-again Christian, he wouldn't be an electable candidate otherwise.
Ah. My bad. I read more into your post than you had said. Sorry 'bout that.

So we're both on the same page regarding the need for a political solution with Iran. That's good to hear. So we can concentrate on who has the best plan to resolve this issue.

You brought up "halting all trade with Iran as they aren't really a self-sustaining nation".

First let me point out that the United States isn't exactly a self-sustaining nation either. We rely upon other nations to import much of our energy supply too, just like Iran. (I'm guessing you already know that Iran is a net gasoline importer.) And OPEC is in a much better position to embargo us than the United States can embargo Iran. The United States doesn't import much into Iran at all, so we would have to rely upon countries like Russia, China, and the EU to halt their trade with Iran on our behalf. All of these countries have openly called for the United States to participate in talks with Iran. So the best US President for getting cooperation of these other nations to halt trade with Iran would be the President who is willing to open talks with Iran.

That is Obama.
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      02-06-2008, 03:27 PM   #38
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I agree with you Nixon, the U.S. alone wouldn't be able to accomplish much at all. As for Obama being the best, I am still undecided on my vote but it isn't my decision for a Dem.

Onehots2k, I didn't read the link, but I don't want you to think I was taking a shot at your opinion. I wasn't really stating it was your opinion, just one that is out there.

peace to all
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      02-06-2008, 04:01 PM   #39
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I agree with you Nixon, the U.S. alone wouldn't be able to accomplish much at all. As for Obama being the best, I am still undecided on my vote but it isn't my decision for a Dem.

Onehots2k, I didn't read the link, but I don't want you to think I was taking a shot at your opinion. I wasn't really stating it was your opinion, just one that is out there.

peace to all
Thanks for clearing it up man. :respekt:
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      02-06-2008, 04:08 PM   #40
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  • He keeps pounding the "I voted against the war" card and I am fearful he would accept defeat in Iraq.
I'm glad you are giving Obama a second look. Of course, just like with every candidate, it isn't possible for him to get into all the tedious details of every issue in every speech he makes. People would pass out with boredom.

His Issues section of his website helps:
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

With regard to Iraq, his detailed plan is here:
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/pdf/IraqFactSheet.pdf

directly to your question, Obama says this:

"Residual Force to Remain: Under the Obama plan, American troops may remain in Iraq or the region. These American troops will protect American diplomatic and military personnel in Iraq, and continue striking at al Qaeda in Iraq. If Iraq makes political progress and their security forces are not sectarian, we would also continue training the Iraqi Security Forces. In the event of an outbreak of genocide, we would reserve the right to intervene, with the international community, if that intervention was needed to provide civilians with a safehaven"

And Obama was quoted saying this too:

SEP 2006: Obama Said US Must Leave Iraq Responsibly. In West Virginia, Obama said, “We must exit Iraq, but not in a way that leaves behind a security vacuum filled with terrorism, chaos, ethnic cleansing and genocide that could engulf large swaths of the Middle East and endanger America…We have both moral and national security reasons to manage our exit in a responsible way.” [Charleston Gazette, 9/26/06]"

That doesn't sound like like defeat to me. It sounds like a realistic and responsible exit plan to remove US combat troops from being in the middle of an Iraqi civil war that they aren't supposed to be fighting, while continuing to target the terrorists that the military is supposed to be fighting. There are more details on the web page I posted.

I'll try to hit some of the other issues you brought up when I get a chance.
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      02-06-2008, 08:09 PM   #41
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No one's healthcare plan will be implemented without tax hikes. Infact, if you crunch the numbers, all the canidates except for Ron Paul are a for a net spending hike/tax hike.

Of course, that's not something the Republican canidates care to disscuss openly.

I'm not sure how his stance on terrorism is weaker than ANY of the other canidates. All I've heard him say is that we should leave Iraq as soon as is responsibly possible ("We should be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in."), and that we should dramatically increase troop presence in Afghanistan, crack down on the lawless no-mans lan of the Afghan/Pakistan border, and focus our diplomatics efforts were military ones aren't possible (the biggest failure of the Bush Admin, IMO).

I don't see how his policies are dramatically different from any of the Republicans. The sole difference is that the Republicans use more bellacose retorical language, such as "winning" in Iraq.

I have yet to hear any of them really define what "Victory" is. Is it establishing a Democratic and self-reliant Iraq? If so, we need to see MAJOR policy changes that put a lot more pressure on the fledgling Iraqi government to do something. Is it eliminating all of Al Quaeda in Iraq? This too, I think will require a major strategy shift, seeing as Al Quaeda in Iraq didn't exist until we created a power vacuum, and presented ourselves there as an easily reachable target for extremists.

The only real difference I see in matters of foreign policy between the Repubs and the Dems is a matter of the language used.
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      02-06-2008, 10:53 PM   #42
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Infact, if you crunch the numbers, all the canidates except for Ron Paul are a for a net spending hike/tax hike.
Uhh... please explain. I fail to see how any Republicans are for a tax hike.
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      02-07-2008, 04:07 AM   #43
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Uhh... please explain. I fail to see how any Republicans are for a tax hike.
If you look at the numbers, all of their plans call for large spending increases. As they have all said that the Bush failures have shown that upping spending while cutting taxes is a bad idea... I would assume that means they plan on raising taxes somewhere to compensate.

*Source: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...46a6e072ff3222
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      02-07-2008, 10:19 AM   #44
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If you look at the numbers, all of their plans call for large spending increases. As they have all said that the Bush failures have shown that upping spending while cutting taxes is a bad idea... I would assume that means they plan on raising taxes somewhere to compensate.

*Source: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...46a6e072ff3222
I see... I thought you were saying that every candidate was generally for tax increases.

However, I struggle to understand why an increase in health care spending requires an increase in taxes. You do not need to raise taxes to pay for big programs like this. The fact of the matter is that out-of-control spending is an issue that is much more related to an excess of redundant government operations (like worthless earmarks and continuations of outdated programs like farm subsidies).

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As they have all said that the Bush failures have shown that upping spending while cutting taxes is a bad idea
Tell that to FDR.
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