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      10-20-2007, 05:50 PM   #1
imported_NoelSmart
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Diesel engine offerings

Turbo diesels have proven themselves again and again in Europe. They have excellent efficiency without completely sacrificing performance. I still don't understand the mentality here in America that keeps companies like BMW from offering their diesel lineups. I've read several articles saying that it is possible in the future for BMW to try a diesel model in the US within their 3 series line. Can anyone confirm this or know when this could potentially happen? Also, is there any hope of that engine reaching the 1 as well? Perhaps in the (2011?) refresh?

On a side note, I'm a graphic designer and did an editorial illustration on the topic of American fuel consumption. I thought you all might find it entertaining.
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      10-20-2007, 06:17 PM   #2
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so true. someone is making decisions that are keeping us from having options so that oil companies can keep making tons of money.
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      10-20-2007, 07:02 PM   #3
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from last we heard, BMW NA said they will offer those turbo diesel engine in early 2008. i think a 335d with 35mpg vs a 335 with 21mpg is a no brainer for those who own the car for the longer run (not sure if short term leases are good in that case with the price differential). i am crossing my fingers for a 135d at some point but a 335d, 535d and 635d would be a great start for BMW NA! (I believe the only thing holding BMW NA back from unfolding the diesel program is the great state of california and it's retarded emission laws)
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      01-16-2008, 11:11 AM   #4
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335d

Did anyone see that BMW introduced (wo prices) the 335d at the Detroit Auto Show? Performance similar to the 335i. What about a 135d? I heard that the holdup for BMW diesals was the high sulfur content of US fuel. This year the standards changed and low sulfur fuel is available everywhere.
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      01-16-2008, 11:45 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chessie1629 View Post
Did anyone see that BMW introduced (wo prices) the 335d at the Detroit Auto Show? Performance similar to the 335i. What about a 135d? I heard that the holdup for BMW diesals was the high sulfur content of US fuel. This year the standards changed and low sulfur fuel is available everywhere.
BMW, VW/Audi, Mercedes, and even Honda will probably all be ramping up diesel models in the next few years. If they take off then American car companies will have to follow.

The only thing i dont like about the new Diesels is the urea injection that needs to be refilled as a part of normal maintenance. Honda's small diesel doesnt need it, but that solution isnt viable for larger diesels.
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      01-16-2008, 11:54 AM   #6
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The SAE magazine (Automotive Engineering) has writeups on the new Audi diesel as well as the Honda diesel. Honda seems to be doing without the urea injection process which I think is good, one less complication. (The whole separate tank for the 'blue' compound reminds me of remembering to get oil into the tank for a two-stroke ; -).

Nixon is really up to date on the diesel scene - he needs to chime in here.
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      01-16-2008, 12:09 PM   #7
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Speaking of performance, the 535d really impressed me on Top Gear (the 335d too when they took it to the 24hr race at Silverstone(?)). They also said it made the most fuel effiecient run yet on the track. Most fuel inefficient was the Evo FQ400. Who knows what a lighter 335d or 135d could do.

1:31.8 – BMW M3
1:31.8 – BMW 535d
1:31.8 – Nissan 350Z
1:31.8 – Mazda RX-8
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      01-16-2008, 12:11 PM   #8
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Just take a pee in the tank everytime you fill it and you'll be adding urea. :biggrin:

But seriously, I think the fear of selling deisels in NA stems back to the "old" one from the 70/80's where they knocked loud, puffed black smoke, and weren't overly loved.

In Europe instead of abandoning the idea for smaller vehicles, they improved technogoly...now, thanks in part to VW's continuing to sell the TDI's here, and things like the Smart car, it seems other manufacturers are getting the point that deisels can/will sell in NA.

Should be interesting to see what happens.
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      01-16-2008, 04:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chemhalo View Post
BMW, VW/Audi, Mercedes, and even Honda will probably all be ramping up diesel models in the next few years. If they take off then American car companies will have to follow.

The only thing i dont like about the new Diesels is the urea injection that needs to be refilled as a part of normal maintenance. Honda's small diesel doesnt need it, but that solution isnt viable for larger diesels.
Something on that new Honda Diesel.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/14/d...-clean-diesel/
Quote:
We've been hearing about Honda's upcoming clean diesel for quite some time now, and the automaker was kind enough to show a cutaway of the i-DTEC clean diesel for us at the 2008 Detroit Auto Show. Expect to see the engine appear first in an upcoming and unnamed Acura product around 2009 - but while you may have to wait over a year for the engine, you can see some cutaways of it right now in our photo gallery below. Click past the jump for some brief commentary on what we learned about Honda's i-DTEC clean diesel in Detroit.
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/honda...ngine-cutaway/


I am all for automakers that bring these new diesels to the US market.
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      11-27-2008, 05:34 AM   #10
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heres to TDI's....

I just had a 2006 VW Jetta TDI and I loved it, the power wasnt much but trq was nice! Not to mention i still have yet to see a car get more mpg then my TDI and Honda still cant match up nor can the Prius... My TDI would get 45-55 mpg and I loved it would fill up mabe once a month or twice maybe more if i drove fast.. but the car was amazing and the TDI engine was real quiet.. and the turbo spool was loud. And yes the 335d and X5 are available in dieel(already in the US i belive) heres the Diesel BMW USA Official Site:

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...sel.aspx#intro
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      11-27-2008, 08:30 AM   #11
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Will the savings be worth it? With diesel being roughly a dollar higher than gas if gas is $2 and diesel is $3 than it would have to be roughly 33% more efficient than gas to make it worth it. Are They typically 33% more efficient? I am not sure that BMW's engines are except for maybe the 23d. I would really like to consider this in the next couple of years for the wife's upcoming small-midsize suv. Especially if I could fill with biodiesel (like to support ag industry).
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      11-27-2008, 12:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARES45 View Post
Will the savings be worth it? With diesel being roughly a dollar higher than gas if gas is $2 and diesel is $3 than it would have to be roughly 33% more efficient than gas to make it worth it. Are They typically 33% more efficient? I am not sure that BMW's engines are except for maybe the 23d. I would really like to consider this in the next couple of years for the wife's upcoming small-midsize suv. Especially if I could fill with biodiesel (like to support ag industry).
I dont know how the BMW's will do but I can speak for my VW, it was def. worth it, i never ran out of gas, if u travel alot its def. worth it, i could travel 3 hrs on a full tank and only use less then qtr of the tank, if u dont drive fast or much you wont be visiting the gas station much.. so the 3buks a gallon for diesel wont hurt ur pocket. if I could have kept the VW TDI and got the 135i I would have def. done so.
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      11-27-2008, 01:53 PM   #13
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Thanks 135, maybe vw would put one in the tiguan for the wifo.
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      11-28-2008, 10:24 PM   #14
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build your own 335d

Quote:
Originally Posted by chessie1629 View Post
Did anyone see that BMW introduced (wo prices) the 335d at the Detroit Auto Show? Performance similar to the 335i. What about a 135d? I heard that the holdup for BMW diesals was the high sulfur content of US fuel. This year the standards changed and low sulfur fuel is available everywhere.
bmwusa site has the new 335d sedan on build-your-own. $43,900 base price, 36mpg. How long before a 135d?

I had an '81 diesel VW Rabbit for about 12 years. 52 mpg highway. Great engine, but everything else was really cheap and fell apart. I had to replace door handles multiple times.
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      11-28-2008, 11:51 PM   #15
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Ignoring the price of diesel, if you want to be more efficient to help with CO2 emissions, then diesel is good (with more particulate emissions).

One main reason why few diesels make it over here is the very tight restrictions in California and maybe New York and Massachusetts. If a car can't pass emission regulations in all 50 states, they often times won't bring it over (I think the 2010 Legacy turbo diesel is an example; it would pass in 48 states). The market in the US is probably a bit less receptive of diesels and it may take a few years to get over it... but bringing in some high quality ones like the new Jetta TDI and the BMW offering will likely help the general image. One they get a better following here, companies will be willing to spend the research dollar getting emissions down to acceptable levels for all states (I hope). I would definitely comsider a nice turbo diesel.
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      11-29-2008, 12:51 AM   #16
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I've been getting the vibe from BMW that if you want a highly fuel efficient small BMW product in the US, you will need to buy a Mini. BMW is supposed to be introducing both diesel and all-electric Mini's to the US sooner than later.


http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/11...an-we-thought/


http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/11...of-the-mini-e/
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      11-29-2008, 01:15 AM   #17
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Electric Mini's? I havent heard that ever..
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      12-04-2008, 11:52 AM   #18
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Take a look at BMWUSA's web site. The 335D commands a ~$3600 premium price over the standard 335i.

Assuming a 10mpg gain from the diesel
Assuming a current Gas price of $1.80 per gallon
Assuming a current Diesel price of $2.62 per gallon

335i After 50,000 highway miles you would have consumed 2000 gallons of gas = $3600 in fuel cost.

335d After 50,000 highway miles you would have consumed 1429 gallons of diesel = $3744 in diesel costs.

Based on this quick analysis, U.S. diesel fuel prices are still too high to make owning a diesel car economically viable. As always, the volitility in fuel prices will skew this analysis.
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      12-04-2008, 12:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
Take a look at BMWUSA's web site. The 335D commands a ~$3600 premium price over the standard 335i.

Assuming a 10mpg gain from the diesel
Assuming a current Gas price of $1.80 per gallon
Assuming a current Diesel price of $2.62 per gallon

335i After 50,000 highway miles you would have consumed 2000 gallons of gas = $3600 in fuel cost.

335d After 50,000 highway miles you would have consumed 1429 gallons of diesel = $3744 in diesel costs.

Based on this quick analysis, U.S. diesel fuel prices are still too high to make owning a diesel car economically viable. As always, the volitility in fuel prices will skew this analysis.
The cruising range could still be an incentive. I read somewhere that the 335d can go more than 560 miles without a fill-up.

With less than 5% difference in total fuel cost over 50,000 miles, a small change in the price of diesel could easily flip the analysis past the break-even point.

Diesel was once cheaper than gas. With a new energy policy that could happen again.
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      12-04-2008, 01:12 PM   #20
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Mark,

You're right about the 335d. That's why I keep saying BMW is importing the wrong diesels to the US. It's almost like they WANT the 335d to fail.

Using your same analysis, look at what happens when you compare the 135i and 128i with a 123d and 120d:

Assuming a current Gas price of $1.80 per gallon.
Assuming a current Diesel price of $2.62 per gallon.
Calculating a US highway MPG rating of 44 for the 123d and 48 for the 120d based upon UK figures.

135i After 50,000 highway miles=2000 gallons of gas = $3600.
128i After 50,000 highway miles=1786 gallons of gas = $3214.
123d After 50,000 highway miles=1136 gallons of diesel = $2977.
120d After 50,000 highway miles=1041 gallons of diesel = $2729.

Even with the completely stupid gap we currently have between gas and diesel prices, the 1-series diesels still make some sense where the 335d doesn't. Which begs the question, why did they choose to federalize and import the 335d instead of the 123d and/or 120d? I don't understand what BMW is thinking.

Put diesel back just to being on par with gas and it looks like this:
123d After 50,000 highway miles=1136 gallons of diesel = $2044.
120d After 50,000 highway miles=1041 gallons of diesel = $1874.
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      12-04-2008, 01:32 PM   #21
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I agree with nixon, i would also like to see the x1 with the 2.3d.
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      12-04-2008, 02:10 PM   #22
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While I agree, the 335d does not seem to offer the most efficient diesel mileage offerings, I believe bmw is worried about being perceived as low-end if they offer 4 cylinder diesels. Thus they are offering the 335d to keep with their high end image here in the US. Catch is, if ya do the math like I just did, it does not pay off.

Also worth noting Nixon, The US gallon is = 3.78 liters, the British or Imperial gallon is = 4.55 liters, a 20% disparity. So using U.K. mileage figures is skewing the results making the cars appear more efficient.
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