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      01-20-2009, 04:35 PM   #1
AlpenWhite25
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Why are all M3s rated at 414 Bhp ,when they actually produce 320 Whp at the Dyno...?

After my last post...when i have discovered that my M3 is making 326 whp i started a little research and found out that the average car is actually producing...that much.I would expect a 414 bhp car to make around 350-370 at the wheel on order to justify BMWs claim.After that i had a talk with my service store wich happens to have a lot of Dyno knowhow in the country,and they told me that they have had the same thing with E46 M3...There was a huge gap between the Factory claims and the actuall power they have measured with different type of Dynos..That got me ending up with the following 2 scenarios..either..


1)BMW MCars cannot be measured correctly in Dynos(for a number of reason i am not awared of...)

2)The M3 actually is Underpowered and does not produce 414 bhp we all payed for...(Wich is something much more serious for me).


I guess one way to find out is to have a Car of Similar Power-Torque-Weight on a Drag Race so we can come down to some kind of conclusion...It might be old-fashioned but it is the method to show the truth...

I really wanted to share my thoughts with you guys...and since we can have a post for that matter now,i would really like to hear what you think of this...?
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      01-20-2009, 04:49 PM   #2
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yea that is weird

i think the engine is most probrably underpowered

imagine how sick it would be if it was rated at 414 horsies at the wheels

Damn, but in any case, however disappointing and frusterated i am with this claim

the m3 is still sick
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      01-20-2009, 05:06 PM   #3
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Roughly a 27% loss, seems a bit excessive. What type of dyno was this?

Edit: So, on the ESS supercharger thread, their reported baseline on a dynojet was 353.52 whp (17%). Their results seem more on par.
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      01-20-2009, 05:11 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
420hp and only 270 ft.torque is pretty pathetic if you ask me. You have to rev the heck out of the engine to even get to that 420hp for a brief second between 7500-8500 rpm.
it's actually not. given the size of the engine this is very impressive. Remember Ferrari Modena? it was producing 420 hp and 275 lb/ft of torque out of 3.9 liter V8 too that revved to 8500! BMW is pretty fucking close for $200,000 less, and few years later
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      01-20-2009, 05:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpenWhite25 View Post
After my last post...when i have discovered that my M3 is making 326 whp i started a little research and found out that the average car is actually producing...that much.I would expect a 414 bhp car to make around 350-370 at the wheel on order to justify BMWs claim.After that i had a talk with my service store wich happens to have a lot of Dyno knowhow in the country,and they told me that they have had the same thing with E46 M3...There was a huge gap between the Factory claims and the actuall power they have measured with different type of Dynos..That got me ending up with the following 2 scenarios..either..


1)BMW MCars cannot be measured correctly in Dynos(for a number of reason i am not awared of...)

2)The M3 actually is Underpowered and does not produce 414 bhp we all payed for...(Wich is something much more serious for me).


I guess one way to find out is to have a Car of Similar Power-Torque-Weight on a Drag Race so we can come down to some kind of conclusion...It might be old-fashioned but it is the method to show the truth...

I really wanted to share my thoughts with you guys...and since we can have a post for that matter now,i would really like to hear what you think of this...?
You can't really use dynos as an absolute measure - there are so many variables that using them as an absolute measure is silly. The only way to get some certainty around what you are asking is to take the engine out and put it on an engine dyno.

Use a dyno as a relative measure - i.e. get a baseline of your car and then if you make modifications or want to compare performance at a later date, go back to the SAME dyno and have another go.

The other thing to note is that some engines take a while to develop their full power - the B7 RS4 4.2L engine is a classic example - needs a good 10,000 miles or so...

I'd recommend where possible using a chassis dyno - it will give you a higher reading but generally the results are more consistent as you are eliminating the highly variable losses that can be caused by tires and wheels...on a chassis dyno, you are pretty much only getting drivetrain losses...

RRI has published two separate M3 dynos on their chassis dyno - both made just over 370HP at the hubs (only 10-11% loss), they also tested a C63 which made 401HP at the hubs (again, only a 11% loss)...

M3 Coupe - http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=768
M3 Sedan - http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=793
C63 - http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=795
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      01-20-2009, 07:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
Don't compare a 3 series to a Ferrari.....it's not even close. The M3 power is at the bottom of all it's competitor. Yeah yeah sure it's meant to shine on the track not at a straight line. But your average joe don't take it to the track, his race track is the freeway and stop light to stop light. Which put the M3 at a big disadvantage. The M3 dominance over competition ended with the E46.
Your right the accolades this car got are crap. Man why did I buy this car again? It is only faster than 95% of the cars out there, just not good enough...
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      01-20-2009, 08:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
Don't compare a 3 series to a Ferrari.....it's not even close. The M3 power is at the bottom of all it's competitor. Yeah yeah sure it's meant to shine on the track not at a straight line. But your average joe don't take it to the track, his race track is the freeway and stop light to stop light. Which put the M3 at a big disadvantage. The M3 dominance over competition ended with the E46.
LOL. Why are you on an M3forum then?
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      01-20-2009, 08:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
Don't compare a 3 series to a Ferrari.....it's not even close. The M3 power is at the bottom of all it's competitor. Yeah yeah sure it's meant to shine on the track not at a straight line. But your average joe don't take it to the track, his race track is the freeway and stop light to stop light. Which put the M3 at a big disadvantage. The M3 dominance over competition ended with the E46.
Then leave, fagbag.
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      01-20-2009, 08:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
420hp and only 270 ft.torque is pretty pathetic if you ask me. You have to rev the heck out of the engine to even get to that 420hp for a brief second between 7500-8500 rpm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
Don't compare a 3 series to a Ferrari.....it's not even close. The M3 power is at the bottom of all it's competitor. Yeah yeah sure it's meant to shine on the track not at a straight line. But your average joe don't take it to the track, his race track is the freeway and stop light to stop light. Which put the M3 at a big disadvantage. The M3 dominance over competition ended with the E46.


if you would know a little bit about race cars, you would be thinking how stupid that post is.

He is not comparing Ferrari to M3 ... You are missing the point dude ... The philosophy of the way they are building their engines is the same ... not the cars
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      01-20-2009, 09:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
420hp and only 270 ft.torque is pretty pathetic if you ask me. You have to rev the heck out of the engine to even get to that 420hp for a brief second between 7500-8500 rpm.
If you owned or had ever driven the m3 you would shut your mouth man. the m3 makes this torque N/A...your 335 makes about the same torque with 2 turbo's?...thats pretty pathetic if you ask me
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      01-20-2009, 10:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChitownM3 View Post
LOL. Why are you on an M3forum then?
lol dont feed the troll.
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      01-20-2009, 10:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
Don't compare a 3 series to a Ferrari.....it's not even close. The M3 power is at the bottom of all it's competitor. Yeah yeah sure it's meant to shine on the track not at a straight line. But your average joe don't take it to the track, his race track is the freeway and stop light to stop light. Which put the M3 at a big disadvantage. The M3 dominance over competition ended with the E46.
You have obviously never driven an E92 M3. The engine is very comparable to a 360. I would even say the M3 tranny is better than that of the 360.
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      01-20-2009, 11:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
Don't compare a 3 series to a Ferrari.....it's not even close. The M3 power is at the bottom of all it's competitor. Yeah yeah sure it's meant to shine on the track not at a straight line. But your average joe don't take it to the track, his race track is the freeway and stop light to stop light. Which put the M3 at a big disadvantage. The M3 dominance over competition ended with the E46.
Guys like you are the ones destroying it for the rest of us, because for some reason BMW is listening to guys like you and ruining //M with FI. You don't understand anything about these cars, the passion behind them or what a truly balanced sports car should feel like. Seriously, go away.....

Cheers,
e46e92
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      01-20-2009, 11:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
The M3 dominance over competition ended with the E46.
Really, is that why it wins every comparo and revered by almost all car analysts as one the best all-around cars.

The E46 M3 didn't over power cars either.

Last edited by JetBlack5OC; 01-21-2009 at 12:34 AM.
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      01-20-2009, 11:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
Don't compare a 3 series to a Ferrari.....it's not even close. The M3 power is at the bottom of all it's competitor. Yeah yeah sure it's meant to shine on the track not at a straight line. But your average joe don't take it to the track, his race track is the freeway and stop light to stop light. Which put the M3 at a big disadvantage. The M3 dominance over competition ended with the E46.
damn..i think something is up your ass...
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      01-21-2009, 12:01 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Guys like you are the ones destroying it for the rest of us, because for some reason BMW is listening to guys like you and ruining //M with FI. You don't understand anything about these cars, the passion behind them or what a truly balanced sports car should feel like. Seriously, go away.....

Cheers,
e46e92
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      01-21-2009, 12:26 AM   #17
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my car made 358 at the wheels SAE.... and its pretty much stock.... so im happy with the power....
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      01-21-2009, 12:49 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbp335 View Post
Don't compare a 3 series to a Ferrari.....it's not even close. The M3 power is at the bottom of all it's competitor. Yeah yeah sure it's meant to shine on the track not at a straight line. But your average joe don't take it to the track, his race track is the freeway and stop light to stop light. Which put the M3 at a big disadvantage. The M3 dominance over competition ended with the E46.
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      01-21-2009, 12:57 AM   #19
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Ummm, the last I checked, the M3 made 295lb ft of tourque not 270lbs
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      01-21-2009, 02:24 AM   #20
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Thank you for all your comments guys...it was really helpfull...


Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
There's another possibility that you didn't consider: roller dynos are crap.

The motor dynos that measured 414hp work completely different than roller dynos that most often guess horsepower based on the physics of power=mass*acceleration. The roller dynos are basically guessing horsepower based on how fast the car accelerates. Once you go down this road, you'll find out that different gears have different mechanical efficiencies, your wheels can slip on the rollers, your car can be over or under tentioned on the rollers. Throw it all together, and you end up with garbage-in = garbage out.

The gas you use also makes a huge difference. The differences I measured in my own dyno tests showed a 28hp difference between 91 octane and 100 octane fuel.

Short of taking the motor out of the car and placing it on a motor dyno, the most reliable dyno method is one that attaches directly to the hubs (wheels off of the car) and applies a hydraulic load to lower the motor speed to specified RPM for measurements. This is exactly how a motor dyno works. Two such dynos exist: Rotopower, and Dynapack. All of my tests are done with Dynapack.

Click on the "Dyno runs" link in my signature below to see many dyno results and comparisons between different performance configurations.

PencilGeek i havent put in consideration that possibility....and i really hope that this is true...So based to your experiance,what did Dynapack showed for your Stock M3???

I also think that we should use the same Dyno as a tool to measure upgrades as Mixja recomended...Due to the relative measurment they can provide....
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      01-21-2009, 05:37 AM   #21
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I dyno'd at 333whp stock on a dyno dynamics. I heard they read a bit low but are the most accurate. I wonder what 335's and tuned 335's get on a dyno dynamics?

Also I remember browsing some MB forum and saw a stock C63 dyno on a dyno dynamics and it was at 335whp and 335wtq.
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      01-21-2009, 11:10 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Guys like you are the ones destroying it for the rest of us, because for some reason BMW is listening to guys like you and ruining //M with FI. You don't understand anything about these cars, the passion behind them or what a truly balanced sports car should feel like. Seriously, go away.....

Cheers,
e46e92


Damn straight man... I couldn't have said it any better.
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