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      01-17-2009, 09:24 PM   #67
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Urbo,

I appreciate your posts on this thread. It makes for a fun dialogue all the way around. Debates on these forums, like everywhere else in life, are never really about the subject matter debated. Don't worry about the whole "troll" thing with people. I find that "trollers" contribute to the veracity of the discussion and inject a much needed adrenaline into a debate. Back slapping and preaching to a choir, tires quickly and hardly ever fosters growth. The competitive spirit of going toe to toe with a hated cross town rivalry is what invigorates the sleeping giant in all of us.

Keep up the good work mate.
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      01-17-2009, 11:05 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Urbo,

I tell ya, I honest to goodness appreciate your posts on this thread. It makes for a fun dialogue all the way around. Debates on these forums, like everywhere else in life, are never really about the subject matter debated. Don't worry about the whole "troll" thing with people. I find that "trollers" contribute to the veracity of the discussion and inject a much needed adrenaline into a debate. Back slapping and preaching to a choir, tires quickly and hardly ever fosters growth. The competitive spirit of going toe to toe with a hated cross town rivalry is what invigorates the sleeping giant in all of us.

Keep up the good work mate.
Where's the debate, ruff?
If someone disagrees about the "pureness" of the M3 vs. the Cayman they are automatically a troll?
Does posting 1100+ posts make you THE authority?

urbo73... since you and ruff seem to own this site, how many reading assignments do you hand out that we have to complete before we aren't insulted?

There seems to be a lot of really well informed people on this site. Too bad that some people with 1/2 a clue have to be so condescending and insulting when they can't support their point of view with facts.

O.K...... the M3 is not as "pure" as the Cayman. In another thread the M3 seems to be turning a whole different class of lap times at VIR. I could only imagine what kind of "pure" sports car it would be if it were sparsely equipped, without power steering, adjustable seats, air conditioning, ABS, EDC, DCT, rear seats, etc. It might be a decent car then, no?

Out of curiosity, there is a version of the Smart car that is convertible, seats 2, and is very sparse. I know it's more "pure" than the M3, because you can feel every bump in the road. And overall performance doesn't seem to count for much, because the M3 trounces the Cayman on a typical road course and it's not as pure a sports car.

Now I know the Cayman would probablybeat the Smart car, but since speed and outright performance don't count, how does the Smart car compare with the Cayman for "pureness"?
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      01-18-2009, 01:17 AM   #69
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Where's the debate, ruff?
If someone disagrees about the "pureness" of the M3 vs. the Cayman they are automatically a troll?
Does posting 1100+ posts make you THE authority?

urbo73... since you and ruff seem to own this site, how many reading assignments do you hand out that we have to complete before we aren't insulted?

There seems to be a lot of really well informed people on this site. Too bad that some people with 1/2 a clue have to be so condescending and insulting when they can't support their point of view with facts.

O.K...... the M3 is not as "pure" as the Cayman. In another thread the M3 seems to be turning a whole different class of lap times at VIR. I could only imagine what kind of "pure" sports car it would be if it were sparsely equipped, without power steering, adjustable seats, air conditioning, ABS, EDC, DCT, rear seats, etc. It might be a decent car then, no?

Out of curiosity, there is a version of the Smart car that is convertible, seats 2, and is very sparse. I know it's more "pure" than the M3, because you can feel every bump in the road. And overall performance doesn't seem to count for much, because the M3 trounces the Cayman on a typical road course and it's not as pure a sports car.

Now I know the Cayman would probablybeat the Smart car, but since speed and outright performance don't count, how does the Smart car compare with the Cayman for "pureness"?
Hey! Chill out man! First of all, I hardly "own" the site

I was sharing my opinion and experience on the Caymans S and the M3 - two cars I've owned and driven quite a lot, the the subject of this thread. I'm not at all uninformed. I think I'm quite informed on those cars and others I've owned, tracked, and even raced.

Second of all, I thought ruff was my "enemy" Thirdly, you I believe were the one throwing out an insult - saying "the BS meter skyrockets", etc. in response to my post and the use of your favorite word,"pure". My insults are really pleas for people to actually read the posts and reply more in-depth than just throwing out lines and missing the point. It just seems that reading comprehension is low, judging from the responses. Sorry, it's how I see it. So it seems rather childish and not productive. Do people read the whole thread and posts that follow? All it takes is for you to read my post 24, 27, & 32 to see I'm quite logical, not at all uninformed, or one that can't support my opinions with "facts". Or biased. Do I have my preferences? You bet I do. Who doesn't? Have I made claims that one car is "better" than the other? No I haven't. I've said both have their pluses and minuses, and both are just too different to compare (except in price maybe). And I said each person is allowed to choose whatever they like. You are the one that wants to argue in favor of the M3 for some reason. I stated in a reply that while the M3 has it's own pluses, so does the Cayman. I stated what they were. What kind of "proof" do you want? Go drive them and ask people who have driven both. I don't think you'll find too many disagreements.

I can care less about lap times and magazine specs. As I said, in yet another ignored post perhaps, most people never see 8/10ths driving ANY car. Most would drive the same in a base Cayman and a souped up M3. What I DO care about, is the fun factor. And what I said (that got you all excited - I guess adjectives can do that), is that for me the Cayman felt more pure - more connected. I stand by that and what I said.

Lastly, for some reason you seem stuck on this adjective, "pure". I've already explained in a prior post what I mean. I don't get what you are still trying to say or prove. Really I don't. I also don't know at times why I bother with lengthy replies, when the replies come back in vain...It makes me wonder the value of such forums sometimes.
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      01-18-2009, 02:31 PM   #70
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urbo73

When a car like the GTR comes out, all we hear about is outright performance, and what an amazing sports car it is.
It doesn't matter that it weights at least as much as the M3, it's performance is totally dependent on 4wd, advanced electronics, etc. It also doesn't matter that it practically drives itself. It's purity as a sports car is rarely questioned.

When Porsche introduces PDK, it's all the rave, and somehow more befitting a performance sports car than DCT. Give it direct injection and a few more HP and somehow the car is transformed. It doesn't matter that the Cayman is an old platform, and not exactly "state of the art" Porsche.
And with the Cayman, it doesn't matter that it can't turn a lap with any of Porsche's higher end sports car offerings (which the M3 can), because it is somehow a "true" (how's that instead of "pure") sports car.

When BMW introduced the E92 M3 we got to hear about it being overweight, lacking in road feel, bad DCT, too many electronics, etc. Forget that (unlike the Cayman) it showcases some of BMW's latest technology, and has an engine all it's own.
It didn't matter that other "higher end" cars offered the same things, weighed the same amount, and didn't perform as well, because if it's not a BMW M3, some people here will rave about it.
I wonder how many people here would order a Ferrari California without the exact same DCT that comes in the M3?

I would strongly disagree with your statements about the performance of the cars not mattering because most people won't see 8/10ths of the performance.
The better a car performs and handles, the easier for your average person to drive faster. I.E. A driver in a 1965 Mustang going 110% couldn't approach the same performance as he/she could in a GTR driving at 50% or even less.

As to the Cayman being more of a "pure" sports car and me calling B.S. on that, here goes.
In drugs, metallurgy, Chemistry, etc. the term "pure" is easily measurable.
With sports cars, it is a term that is over used by automotive journalists to describe sparsely equipped, and often under performing automobiles.
It is impossible to measure the pureness of one car vs. another, and is SUBJECTIVE at best.

If the Cayman appeals to your idea of what a true sports car is more than the M3, great. But a lot of people don't think that things like adjustable suspension, steering input, throttle response, shift engagement, etc. detract from the sporting nature of the M3. And a lot of people look at overall performance, comfort, and conveniences when evaluating a sports car.
That's one of the benefits of having different manufacturers trying to appeal to our personal perspectives.

My personal take is that the faster car around the track is the better sports car, if we are talking "pure" sporting use.
If you are going to use the car for anything but track use, things like ride quality, conveniences, comfort, luggage capacity, etc. all factor in to how we compromise.
If you can get a sports car that has all the features you want, and still be the faster one in a track environment, then that's the sports car to get.
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      01-18-2009, 09:34 PM   #71
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The FL Cayman S just ran Hockenheim in 1.13,9:

http://www.sportauto-online.de/test_...7705_14469.hbs

I believe a 997.2 C4S ran Hockenheim in the same 1.13,9 and a 997.2 C2S in 1.13,4. If I am not mistaken, the M3 ran it in 1.14,3.
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      01-21-2009, 08:11 PM   #72
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urbo73

It is impossible to measure the pureness of one car vs. another, and is SUBJECTIVE at best.

If the Cayman appeals to your idea of what a true sports car is more than the M3, great. But a lot of people don't think that things like adjustable suspension, steering input, throttle response, shift engagement, etc. detract from the sporting nature of the M3. And a lot of people look at overall performance, comfort, and conveniences when evaluating a sports car.
That's one of the benefits of having different manufacturers trying to appeal to our personal perspectives.

My personal take is that the faster car around the track is the better sports car, if we are talking "pure" sporting use.
If you are going to use the car for anything but track use, things like ride quality, conveniences, comfort, luggage capacity, etc. all factor in to how we compromise.
If you can get a sports car that has all the features you want, and still be the faster one in a track environment, then that's the sports car to get.
Then a CTS-V is clearly the better sports car over the M3. It's faster in a straight line, faster on the track, and to boot I think has more room.

Sure it may not be as precise as the M3, the throttle not as immediate, all the intangibles may be in the M3's favor, but hey we can't let that nonsense get in the way.

The Cayman S is a special car beyond it's performance figures. If that's not your cup of tea so be it, but trying to define the "best sports car" in such absolute terms leave so very much to be desired.
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      01-21-2009, 09:01 PM   #73
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Then a CTS-V is clearly the better sports car over the M3. It's faster in a straight line, faster on the track, and to boot I think has more room.

Sure it may not be as precise as the M3, the throttle not as immediate, all the intangibles may be in the M3's favor, but hey we can't let that nonsense get in the way.

The Cayman S is a special car beyond it's performance figures. If that's not your cup of tea so be it, but trying to define the "best sports car" in such absolute terms leave so very much to be desired.
You missed my point.
The discussion was on the purity of Cayman as a sports car. And in pure sports car context, I was saying it comes down to track speed (class dependant). From there I said it was a matter of how you want to compromise in regards to features when evaluating a street sports car.
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      01-22-2009, 06:40 PM   #74
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To make matters worse, our Brittish idol, the one with a shoddy singing voice, has the audacity to name the sad little love bug that could (without coronation but legitimate heir to the PAG throne, given the Kings blessing of a few more Lipizzaners strapped to the heirs mid engine carriage) the title of Prince "Gayman" of Zuffenhausen.

Less we forget the intrigue by older brother, Crown Prince Icon the 997th, who is burdened with a profusely large gluteus, only matched in proportion by his jealousy toward his younger brother for his grace and charisma with the Uusikaupunki Princess on the ballroom dance floor.

Dang, you even got Uusikaupunki right.

I think you've done enough research. You already sound like a disgruntled Boxster-Cayman owner, in fact, ready to sell your car and move on. The perrenial "Not enough HP," oldie but goodie "700 dollars for footwell lighting?" fun play on words "the finish on the Finnish cars is superior to the Stuttgart cars," and the final gasp before defecting to a "real" Porsche (whatever that is) "Porsche has lost its way." May I suggest a Z06, M coupe, or C63 as your next venture? Not that there is any logic in THAT
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      01-22-2009, 07:11 PM   #75
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The right attitude is to get the car you like and forget about image, car marketing, company tactics, etc...
Agree. It really is that simple, ruff. You really are your own man. So why are you trying to blend in with your small-town gossipy neighbors in your Accord DX? POSEUR!
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      01-23-2009, 12:02 PM   #76
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Holy thread proliferation batman LOL

Some interesting posts on this thread, I just wanted to throw in a couple more points.

Someone was discussing the subjective nature of a pure sports car. I agree that one's definition is highly subjective, and that no two people's heuristics have to be the same.

Let's talk semantics and heuristics.

For me, a pure sports car is not defined by laptimes and fastest around a track.

For me, a RACE car is defined by its fastest times around a track. A RACE car makes no compromises, is defined singularly for racing, function over form.

A sports car is made to provide a racy experience. It is not designed with fastest lap times in mind as a race car is, it is held by many restraints, not limited to 1) maintaining reasonable costs in order to sell effectively to consumers 2) some creature comforts and 3) an understanding of the geographical nature of which the consumers will buy. A sports car will seldom have all the nice features of which one can find in a luxury car, but is not necessarily designed as such. Pure is a construct that seldom will ever agree upon, so why try.

In recent years, all car companies have made the concession that most consumers prefer having many creature comforts and luxuries, hence the proliferation of GT car design and sales. It is at this juncture where therein lies the greatest variance, with cars like Lotus' and ZR-1s, who make no apologies for their shortcomings or mild discomforts, with Porsches and BMWs in between, and something like a SL at the other end.

The beauty in this is that there allows for greater variability for consumers to choose what is the best sports car for them. Any of the cars mentioned in this thread are compromised, M3 is compromised, Cayman is compromised, a ZR-1 is compromised, but in all different respects.

Track Times.

This starts to border on bench magazine racing, and this is why I don't like track times. Any person can find a credible track time where car A is faster than car B, and vice versa to counter it. Why? Because tracks are all different. Layouts of tracks will either have a skew towards straightlines or with tight twisty turns. So one can say well the Ring has the best of both worlds. I would agree. However, how often do any of us spend time on the ring? Our track consumption is varied. Some, actually most, will never even get to a track. And that's fine. Some goto parking lots autocrosses, some goto local tracks, hell some use their freeways as proving grounds, some use exit ramps to justify how awesome their cars are.

The cayman S is not the best sports car in the world. Neither is an M3. For all who would consider either car the best absolute driving experience needs to get out of their box and look a little higher than eye level.

So why did I type all this out? It annoys me to see on this board, just like every cayman fan board, just like every gt-r fan board, everywhere on the Internet, where people misinterpret the concept of subjectivity. It's perfectly fine to prefer one car over the other, and to even speak to those viewpoints, but it's just immature to act as if others should somehow fall in line. This is really the premise that undermines the 335 vs. m3 arguments. Subjectivity is defined by varying and often opposing constructs to make a judgment, and people can't seem to realize that being so diametrically opposed is a straight shot to discourse.

The second thing I hate is that some on the Internet are seldom consistent with their logic patterns. For example, if person A compares a c63 vs. m3, and chooses the m3, because "although it does not have as much power, it is more balanced, more fun to drive, and has that connection and feel," then turns around and, when comparing for example a m3 to a cayman s, says "the car is more powerful, and who cares about the weight difference or road feel," and continues to list the few pluses that the c63 have over an m3 and apply those constructs to a flipped argument is just inconsistent.

The last thing that disturbs me the most is this SES application based on what car you drive. Porsche owners and BMWs owners alike are guilty of this on a macro level. You bought an m3? well that means you couldn't afford a m5. You bought a 335? That means you can't afford a m3. You bought a cayman? Couldn't buy a 911. Bought a carrera S? Couldn't afford a gt3. Bought an evo? Couldn't afford a gt-r. etc etc. Is it true in some cases? Of course it is, but not in most. Most dedicated fans buy the car that they want, will wait and save up or varying means of aggregating money to do so. Some have too much money and like trying varying things.

Going back to the Cayman, I think that the car does a respectable job in presenting what it is. One full test drive will allow the owner to allow whether to love the car or to hate it. Those who love it love the fact that it is light, has an engine right behind its head that audibly and physically lets you know about it, among other things. It is relatively no frills, hell I specced mine with manual seats to save weight. Those who hate it, or a good percentage of those, quickly realize that what the cayman offers is not what they are looking for, and that there is no compromising with the car, it either is what makes you happy or it is very far away from it.

So everyone has a difference preference, but putting down another car to justify yours is childish.

What the hell was my point? Part of me was skewed by reading the m3 vs 335 thread, what a fight! LOL.

Oh, my point was that we should all be so happy that we have so many choices as consumers and so many aftermarket tuners to allow each of us to tailor our cars to suit our specific needs. Was my cayman perfect out of the box? Nope, but it was great. Sitting in the garage with a turbo kit, LSD, gt3 front, some carbon parts, coilovers, and gt3 buckets, the car is perfect. For me.
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      01-23-2009, 07:04 PM   #77
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^ best post of `09 so far.

boy.....that was long
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      02-25-2009, 09:34 PM   #78
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      02-27-2009, 09:18 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by curv etr View Post
Holy thread proliferation batman LOL

Some interesting posts on this thread, I just wanted to throw in a couple more points.

Someone was discussing the subjective nature of a pure sports car. I agree that one's definition is highly subjective, and that no two people's heuristics have to be the same.

Let's talk semantics and heuristics.

For me, a pure sports car is not defined by laptimes and fastest around a track.

For me, a RACE car is defined by its fastest times around a track. A RACE car makes no compromises, is defined singularly for racing, function over form.

A sports car is made to provide a racy experience. It is not designed with fastest lap times in mind as a race car is, it is held by many restraints, not limited to 1) maintaining reasonable costs in order to sell effectively to consumers 2) some creature comforts and 3) an understanding of the geographical nature of which the consumers will buy. A sports car will seldom have all the nice features of which one can find in a luxury car, but is not necessarily designed as such. Pure is a construct that seldom will ever agree upon, so why try.

In recent years, all car companies have made the concession that most consumers prefer having many creature comforts and luxuries, hence the proliferation of GT car design and sales. It is at this juncture where therein lies the greatest variance, with cars like Lotus' and ZR-1s, who make no apologies for their shortcomings or mild discomforts, with Porsches and BMWs in between, and something like a SL at the other end.

The beauty in this is that there allows for greater variability for consumers to choose what is the best sports car for them. Any of the cars mentioned in this thread are compromised, M3 is compromised, Cayman is compromised, a ZR-1 is compromised, but in all different respects.

Track Times.

This starts to border on bench magazine racing, and this is why I don't like track times. Any person can find a credible track time where car A is faster than car B, and vice versa to counter it. Why? Because tracks are all different. Layouts of tracks will either have a skew towards straightlines or with tight twisty turns. So one can say well the Ring has the best of both worlds. I would agree. However, how often do any of us spend time on the ring? Our track consumption is varied. Some, actually most, will never even get to a track. And that's fine. Some goto parking lots autocrosses, some goto local tracks, hell some use their freeways as proving grounds, some use exit ramps to justify how awesome their cars are.

The cayman S is not the best sports car in the world. Neither is an M3. For all who would consider either car the best absolute driving experience needs to get out of their box and look a little higher than eye level.

So why did I type all this out? It annoys me to see on this board, just like every cayman fan board, just like every gt-r fan board, everywhere on the Internet, where people misinterpret the concept of subjectivity. It's perfectly fine to prefer one car over the other, and to even speak to those viewpoints, but it's just immature to act as if others should somehow fall in line. This is really the premise that undermines the 335 vs. m3 arguments. Subjectivity is defined by varying and often opposing constructs to make a judgment, and people can't seem to realize that being so diametrically opposed is a straight shot to discourse.

The second thing I hate is that some on the Internet are seldom consistent with their logic patterns. For example, if person A compares a c63 vs. m3, and chooses the m3, because "although it does not have as much power, it is more balanced, more fun to drive, and has that connection and feel," then turns around and, when comparing for example a m3 to a cayman s, says "the car is more powerful, and who cares about the weight difference or road feel," and continues to list the few pluses that the c63 have over an m3 and apply those constructs to a flipped argument is just inconsistent.

The last thing that disturbs me the most is this SES application based on what car you drive. Porsche owners and BMWs owners alike are guilty of this on a macro level. You bought an m3? well that means you couldn't afford a m5. You bought a 335? That means you can't afford a m3. You bought a cayman? Couldn't buy a 911. Bought a carrera S? Couldn't afford a gt3. Bought an evo? Couldn't afford a gt-r. etc etc. Is it true in some cases? Of course it is, but not in most. Most dedicated fans buy the car that they want, will wait and save up or varying means of aggregating money to do so. Some have too much money and like trying varying things.

Going back to the Cayman, I think that the car does a respectable job in presenting what it is. One full test drive will allow the owner to allow whether to love the car or to hate it. Those who love it love the fact that it is light, has an engine right behind its head that audibly and physically lets you know about it, among other things. It is relatively no frills, hell I specced mine with manual seats to save weight. Those who hate it, or a good percentage of those, quickly realize that what the cayman offers is not what they are looking for, and that there is no compromising with the car, it either is what makes you happy or it is very far away from it.

So everyone has a difference preference, but putting down another car to justify yours is childish.

What the hell was my point? Part of me was skewed by reading the m3 vs 335 thread, what a fight! LOL.

Oh, my point was that we should all be so happy that we have so many choices as consumers and so many aftermarket tuners to allow each of us to tailor our cars to suit our specific needs. Was my cayman perfect out of the box? Nope, but it was great. Sitting in the garage with a turbo kit, LSD, gt3 front, some carbon parts, coilovers, and gt3 buckets, the car is perfect. For me.
good impartial post
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      02-28-2009, 12:22 PM   #80
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you got yourself 4.0 from this essay. A+

Next essay is about Ferrari F430 vs Lambo gallardo.
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      03-13-2009, 02:46 PM   #81
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PAG finally gives the Cayman S the legs it always deserved:

Ohhh yes and its a beautiful thing. You should see some of the Conversion projects they're doing over on 6 speed. MADNESS
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      03-13-2009, 06:55 PM   #82
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Ohhh yes and its a beautiful thing. You should see some of the Conversion projects they're doing over on 6 speed. MADNESS
Yes I have. Nice, and a rather large infusion of capital.
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      03-14-2009, 05:49 PM   #83
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I actually saw one in person with a gt3 engine swap bumped to 3.8 over at bbi autosport in Huntington Beach. I was in awe
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      03-18-2009, 11:16 PM   #84
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I just traded my '07 Cayman S that I owned since 1/07 for an '08 E90 M3 last week. No doubt, the CS handles and feels better. I'm just more confident in the twisties w/ it, and appreciated the lower cg and better weight dist.

I traded to the M3 to be able to cart my family around in a fun car, and am loving it so far. The engine and luxury features blow away my Cayman's, and it handles plenty well for street use...but it doesn't feel like a sports car, unlike the CS.

I run my Miata at the track, so I don't care about their relative differences there.
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      03-19-2009, 08:03 AM   #85
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I just traded my '07 Cayman S that I owned since 1/07 for an '08 E90 M3 last week. No doubt, the CS handles and feels better. I'm just more confident in the twisties w/ it, and appreciated the lower cg and better weight dist.

I traded to the M3 to be able to cart my family around in a fun car, and am loving it so far. The engine and luxury features blow away my Cayman's, and it handles plenty well for street use...but it doesn't feel like a sports car, unlike the CS.

I run my Miata at the track, so I don't care about their relative differences there.
Welcome to the club man - the guys that gave up their Caymans for kids You're the guy from the caymanclub, no?
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      03-25-2009, 11:11 AM   #86
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After spending a day at Porsche's new Driving Experience Centre at Silverstone Race Circuit in the new improved Mk2 Cayman S complete with LSD and PDK I can say that the Cayman is superior to the M3 in every way bar practicality.

I have owned Boxsters previously and know how good they were but this new Cayman is an altogether different animal and PDK on the track is a revelation, even in auto mode.

I feel strongly enough to say that outside of possibly a F430Scud or GT3RS I can't think of anything that would be more entertaining on the track. Hat of to Porsche for a job well done.
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      03-25-2009, 12:15 PM   #87
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After spending a day at Porsche's new Driving Experience Centre at Silverstone Race Circuit in the new improved Mk2 Cayman S complete with LSD and PDK I can say that the Cayman is superior to the M3 in every way bar practicality.

I have owned Boxsters previously and know how good they were but this new Cayman is an altogether different animal and PDK on the track is a revelation, even in auto mode.

I feel strongly enough to say that outside of possibly a F430Scud or GT3RS I can't think of anything that would be more entertaining on the track. Hat of to Porsche for a job well done.
In every way? Scud, RS, I think your a bit overly excited here Footie. And I fully appreciate and respect Caymans, including having driven the PDK car and owning a modified track CS.
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      03-25-2009, 12:37 PM   #88
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I have driven numerous cars on the track and in my opinion the new Cayman S, especially when equipped with LSD is up there it the best of them. No it's not of the caliber of the Scuderia or GT3RS among some others but it's definitely better than the M3.

The course that Porsche has developed at their Silverstone centre is like the best roads of the world rolled into one, it might be flattering the Cayman better than I expected but the tester did admit that the Cayman S is better here than all other Porsche bar the GT3RS.
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