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      01-16-2009, 07:10 PM   #45
ismelllikepoop
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i dont get whats going on. the holier than thou attitude with a thesis statement on the capitalistic society we live in? you can label anything outside of basic shelter and food to be a luxury item. some people actually enjoy the way their cars drive outside of just the vanity of it all. if you actually have driven a ferrari or porsche you would know that there's really not a whole lot that compares.
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      01-16-2009, 09:11 PM   #46
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the arguments in this thread are getting very interesting. i am going to follow this one.

love the cayman's design... i would get that car over an m3 if i didnt need the practicality of a large boot and 2 rear seats.
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      01-17-2009, 09:41 AM   #47
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The "pure" Cayman sports car description seems to linger on.
Modern cars have ABS brakes, air bags, and a myriad of other safety/comfort devices that aren't going away.
I haven't seen a Cayman without power windows, door locks, etc. Sunroof? Stereo? AC?
Given the $'s, most buyers opt for the more expensive power adjustable seats, instead of the manual ones.

This isn't in defense of the M3, because I've actually owned more Porsche's than BMW's.

So the M3 has "electronic assists". and that's supposed to make it less "pure"?
How is being able to drive rough city streets in relative comfort and being able to switch to firm suspension at the touch of a button "unpure"? I'd call it "convenient", "comfortable", "high tech", but not anything that implies it is less capable.

"Pure" sports cars is an over used/abused magazine and marketing tool, used to describe cars that lack features, comfort, and even sometimes performance.
That same term is often used by magazines to describe Miata's....another basic low power sports car.

I test drive the 2008 Cayman before buying the M3, and if anything I found it "purely" underpowered. Also, it didn't have that bank vault feel that the higher end models have.
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      01-17-2009, 10:03 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbo73 View Post
Also the "real problem for Porsche and these other companies" is good news for me if they lower their prices if there is less demand.
Uh...ya. And the light switch miraculously flips on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ismelllikepoop View Post
if you actually have driven a ferrari or porsche you would know that there's really not a whole lot that compares.
Exactly, why on earth would you ever embarrass yourself in a low budget E93 M3. A fabulously wealthy exotic race car driver such as yourself, is itchin for the privilege to donate a measly 150k more to join the Ferrari California Club.
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Last edited by ruff; 01-17-2009 at 10:59 AM.
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      01-17-2009, 10:35 AM   #49
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The general consensus seems to be that the modern sports car era started after World War Two when soldiers started returning to the US and bringing British roadsters (MG, Jaguar, Triumph, etc.) back with them. These cars were nothing like the large sedans that were prevalent on US roads at the time. At that time the vast majority of cars on the road came from Detroit. There were few European cars and no Japanese cars. During that era the SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) was established.

In the 1950s it was clear what constituted a "Sports Car". It was much smaller than a passenger car, low to the ground, light weight, had two doors and two seats and usually was a "convertible" with a top that had to be assembled. "Sports Cars" did not have automatic tranmissions, power windows (many did not have side windows at all but had "side curtiains"), power steering (you had to "feel" the road) or power brakes. A classic sports car was a car that could be driven to the track, raced, and then driven back home. Today most of the cars that are raced in SCCA events are brought to the track on trailers and are not licensed for use on the road.

Of all of the production cars available today the Miata probably comes closest to fitting the classic definition of a sports car (yes, I know it has power steering, brakes and windows) but there are a number of cars that don't (M3 being an example) that can easily outperform Miatas.

I remember going to Watkins Glen when I was a kid. It was very obvious which cars were sports cars and which weren't and sports car drivers saw them selves as members of a select group. They used to honk their horns and wave when they encountered another sports car on the road. I decided that sports cars were about the coolest things on earth and decided that as soon as I was old enough to drive I was going to get one. By the time I started driving cars like the BMW 1600 were around and the definition of "sports car" was getting getting to be a bit hazy. As it turned out my first car was a used (abused would be a better description) 1962 Ford Galaxie Convertible which was about as far away from being a sports car as was possible.

The definition of a "Sports Car" is much less clear today with cars like the M3 generally being considered sports cars. The M3 is available as a 4 door sedan. The concept of a 4 door sports car was unheard of in the 1950s. Things have progressed to the point where generic sedans like Honda Accords can easily outperform most of the classic sports cars from the 50s.and sedans like the M3 can go against some modern "exotics" and outperform them.

So what is the differnce between a "sports car", a "sports sedan" and a "Grand Touring" car? It is very unclear and can (and will) be debated ad nauseum.
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      01-17-2009, 10:42 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advskier View Post
I haven't seen a Cayman without power windows, door locks, etc. Sunroof? Stereo? AC?
Want a sunroof? Thank goodness it is not available on a Cayman at any price.
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      01-17-2009, 10:55 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advskier View Post
The "pure" Cayman sports car description seems to linger on.
Modern cars have ABS brakes, air bags, and a myriad of other safety/comfort devices that aren't going away.
I haven't seen a Cayman without power windows, door locks, etc. Sunroof? Stereo? AC?
Given the $'s, most buyers opt for the more expensive power adjustable seats, instead of the manual ones.

This isn't in defense of the M3, because I've actually owned more Porsche's than BMW's.

So the M3 has "electronic assists". and that's supposed to make it less "pure"?
How is being able to drive rough city streets in relative comfort and being able to switch to firm suspension at the touch of a button "unpure"? I'd call it "convenient", "comfortable", "high tech", but not anything that implies it is less capable.

"Pure" sports cars is an over used/abused magazine and marketing tool, used to describe cars that lack features, comfort, and even sometimes performance.
That same term is often used by magazines to describe Miata's....another basic low power sports car.

I test drive the 2008 Cayman before buying the M3, and if anything I found it "purely" underpowered. Also, it didn't have that bank vault feel that the higher end models have.
Dude, do you have reading comprehension problems? Read post #32 and respond to that. Otherwise stop trolling..

As far as the 2008 Cayman being "underpowered" see my post #41.
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      01-17-2009, 10:58 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Uh...ya. And the light switch miraculously flips on.
Another troll. I responded to your post (post #44 in this thread - read it again - people here have reading comprehension issues, that's pretty clear) and you take a quote and try to be a wiseass. You are not wise - just the latter.
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      01-17-2009, 10:59 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Want a sunroof? Thank goodness it is not available on a Cayman at any price.
Why does it matter to you? You are not getting the car since it's a Porsche you said. Go troll in the Honda forums.
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      01-17-2009, 11:16 AM   #54
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You are not getting the car since it's a Porsche you said. Go troll in the Honda forums.
Assume and Assumptions, words you like to dish out liberally. Your assumption about the sports car I purchase, may surprise you.

Only one problem, I don't believe I would technically qualify as troll in a Honda a forum, since I just so happen to own one, darn it:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...t=troll+fanboy
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      01-17-2009, 11:49 AM   #55
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to be honest, I never consider Cayman as a real Porsche at all.
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      01-17-2009, 12:19 PM   #56
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Okay, I gotta chime in here. Nothing complicated. I drove a Cayman S to see if I was missing anything and clearly I wasn't. Years ago I had a 928S and loved it so I am not anti-Porsche at all. Once I got behind the wheel of my M3 coupe, it was more fun than a person has the right to experience. You can push it and push it, road feel is perfect, always planted, always giving you feedback. For what the M3 is I don't know of a car that can equal it for the money period.
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      01-17-2009, 12:27 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The general consensus seems to be that the modern sports car era started after World War Two when soldiers started returning to the US and bringing British roadsters (MG, Jaguar, Triumph, etc.) back with them. These cars were nothing like the large sedans that were prevalent on US roads at the time. At that time the vast majority of cars on the road came from Detroit. There were few European cars and no Japanese cars. During that era the SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) was established.

In the 1950s it was clear what constituted a "Sports Car". It was much smaller than a passenger car, low to the ground, light weight, had two doors and two seats and usually was a "convertible" with a top that had to be assembled. "Sports Cars" did not have automatic tranmissions, power windows (many did not have side windows at all but had "side curtiains"), power steering (you had to "feel" the road) or power brakes. A classic sports car was a car that could be driven to the track, raced, and then driven back home. Today most of the cars that are raced in SCCA events are brought to the track on trailers and are not licensed for use on the road.

Of all of the production cars available today the Miata probably comes closest to fitting the classic definition of a sports car (yes, I know it has power steering, brakes and windows) but there are a number of cars that don't (M3 being an example) that can easily outperform Miatas.

I remember going to Watkins Glen when I was a kid. It was very obvious which cars were sports cars and which weren't and sports car drivers saw them selves as members of a select group. They used to honk their horns and wave when they encountered another sports car on the road. I decided that sports cars were about the coolest things on earth and decided that as soon as I was old enough to drive I was going to get one. By the time I started driving cars like the BMW 1600 were around and the definition of "sports car" was getting getting to be a bit hazy. As it turned out my first car was a used (abused would be a better description) 1962 Ford Galaxie Convertible which was about as far away from being a sports car as was possible.

The definition of a "Sports Car" is much less clear today with cars like the M3 generally being considered sports cars. The M3 is available as a 4 door sedan. The concept of a 4 door sports car was unheard of in the 1950s. Things have progressed to the point where generic sedans like Honda Accords can easily outperform most of the classic sports cars from the 50s.and sedans like the M3 can go against some modern "exotics" and outperform them.

So what is the differnce between a "sports car", a "sports sedan" and a "Grand Touring" car? It is very unclear and can (and will) be debated ad nauseum.
Good post - as well as the one on the Skip Barber lessons. I agree. Unfortunately this thread/forum however seems to be filled with kids who like to troll around instead of offering any useful information, so useful information is diluted with clutter and noise. Good to have posters like you. All forums have trolls, but for some reason this one more. The Cayman forum I was on was a bit more mature. Oh well..
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      01-17-2009, 12:32 PM   #58
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Okay, I gotta chime in here. Nothing complicated. I drove a Cayman S to see if I was missing anything and clearly I wasn't. Years ago I had a 928S and loved it so I am not anti-Porsche at all. Once I got behind the wheel of my M3 coupe, it was more fun than a person has the right to experience. You can push it and push it, road feel is perfect, always planted, always giving you feedback. For what the M3 is I don't know of a car that can equal it for the money period.
That's fine. Threads like this tend to get into a pissing contest when some members have nothing better to do. As I said all along, both cars are great, both have their place (however different), and there will always be people who prefer one or the other for various reasons. I've had various cars, including the Cayman S and now the E90 M3. So I'm not biased since I have no reason to be.

But I do wish you'd tell a bit more about why you preferred the M. Just to see what draws people to this car or the other. Did you find the Cayman too small? Not enough HP? Etc. It's these type of things that can make a post more useful than just saying I like this car over this other one.
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      01-17-2009, 12:33 PM   #59
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to be honest, I never consider Cayman as a real Porsche at all.
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      01-17-2009, 12:49 PM   #60
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yeah. for real.
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      01-17-2009, 12:55 PM   #61
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yeah. for real.
Then maybe our local Nietszsche-quoting "philosopher" can finally get the Cayman (since it's not a real Porsche) and not feel as if he's selling his soul, beliefs, and ideals to the devil
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      01-17-2009, 04:35 PM   #62
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We need a cayman turbo @ around $75k loaded, now that would be nice...

BTW stop the bickering, you guys are agreeing angrily.
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      01-17-2009, 06:58 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advskier View Post
The "pure" Cayman sports car description seems to linger on.
Modern cars have ABS brakes, air bags, and a myriad of other safety/comfort devices that aren't going away.
I haven't seen a Cayman without power windows, door locks, etc. Sunroof? Stereo? AC?
Given the $'s, most buyers opt for the more expensive power adjustable seats, instead of the manual ones.

This isn't in defense of the M3, because I've actually owned more Porsche's than BMW's.

So the M3 has "electronic assists". and that's supposed to make it less "pure"?
How is being able to drive rough city streets in relative comfort and being able to switch to firm suspension at the touch of a button "unpure"? I'd call it "convenient", "comfortable", "high tech", but not anything that implies it is less capable.

"Pure" sports cars is an over used/abused magazine and marketing tool, used to describe cars that lack features, comfort, and even sometimes performance.
That same term is often used by magazines to describe Miata's....another basic low power sports car.

I test drive the 2008 Cayman before buying the M3, and if anything I found it "purely" underpowered. Also, it didn't have that bank vault feel that the higher end models have.
Nice work, this post really can not be improved upon.
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      01-17-2009, 07:09 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by urbo73 View Post
Another troll. I responded to your post (post #44 in this thread - read it again - people here have reading comprehension issues, that's pretty clear) and you take a quote and try to be a wiseass. You are not wise - just the latter.
Sorry about "ruff". He must have not gotten the fax, stating that you are thee authority on nearly every subject known to man. How dare he post an opinion that is in any way shape or form contrary to your's, oh wise one.
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      01-17-2009, 08:29 PM   #65
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Dude, do you have reading comprehension problems? Read post #32 and respond to that. Otherwise stop trolling..

As far as the 2008 Cayman being "underpowered" see my post #41.
Gee urbo73, thanks for the reading assignment.
Don't get stuck on the word "pure"???? Then don't throw it around when comparing the Cayman to the M3.
And if you are going to insult my reading comprehension, look in the mirror.

And excuse my throwing a sunroof on the Cayman. They typically do have every other option I mentioned, and then some. And some people here are saying it has a better PDK than the M3 DCT........
In other threads DCT is really "unpure". So is the PDK setup more "pure"?

As to the other things on the Cayman being subjectively better, does that make it more "pure"?
Very confusing... must be my reading comprehension.
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      01-17-2009, 08:52 PM   #66
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His opinion was respected much more until he ended by saying it's the best car in the world. That's some of the most subjective, off the wall, stuff I've heard in a while.
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