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      01-15-2009, 08:22 PM   #23
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I'm actually going through my mid-20s crisis

I'm cross shopping the ///M3 coupe vs. cayman s, i'm really torn on which one to get
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      01-15-2009, 10:33 PM   #24
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I'm actually going through my mid-20s crisis

I'm cross shopping the ///M3 coupe vs. cayman s, i'm really torn on which one to get
Search the forum for Cayman. I and others have made quite a few posts. I had a Cayman S that I had to give up because right now I need a sedan for my newborn son. And the M3 is the best sports sedan for me. So it really depends on your situation (need space/back seats or not) and what type of car you prefer (lighter more nimble Cayman) or more tank-like M3. They are VERY different cars in terms of feel - which is ultimately what you should base your decision on. My Cayman S was also my daily driver before the son came along, so it's fine - even in snow. So is my M3. For me personally, I can't wait to go back to a Porsche once my M3 lease is up in 3 years and the son older. Drive them both a lot and then make up your mind. Don't worry too much about numbers and magazine reviews.
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      01-15-2009, 11:01 PM   #25
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Well, in August i'll be 25, don't have any kids or significant other, so I don't care about back seats. By what you just said, it sounds like the Cayman S seems to be the winner. I want something that's more nimble and low. I drove a Ferrari F430 this past October and that thing felt like a go-kart, so yeah, I want something that feels close to that, lol. I am also considering a 94 Ferrari 348 as well, but i'm not sure what the maintenance cost will be. I will still test drive the M and the Cayman, because to be honest, i'm in love with all three of them

Edit:
Oh, and I don't care about which one is faster, I want something that gives you an experience when driving it
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      01-16-2009, 05:47 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by urbo73 View Post
Search the forum for Cayman. I and others have made quite a few posts. I had a Cayman S that I had to give up because right now I need a sedan for my newborn son. And the M3 is the best sports sedan for me. So it really depends on your situation (need space/back seats or not) and what type of car you prefer (lighter more nimble Cayman) or more tank-like M3. They are VERY different cars in terms of feel - which is ultimately what you should base your decision on. My Cayman S was also my daily driver before the son came along, so it's fine - even in snow. So is my M3. For me personally, I can't wait to go back to a Porsche once my M3 lease is up in 3 years and the son older. Drive them both a lot and then make up your mind. Don't worry too much about numbers and magazine reviews.
I drove the 07 CaymanS and bought the m3 last year.
The Cayman was great but i cannot understand people selling their M3 for a Cayman(s)

THe Cayman is great fun, but the m3 offers more in the most details:
- more power
- more space
- more comfort
- more sound (which is in my opinion very important to the overall driving-expirince)
...

The Cayman is easier to handle, yes. But with some practicing the m3 would make that up.

Just drive both cars
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      01-16-2009, 08:37 AM   #27
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I drove the 07 CaymanS and bought the m3 last year.
The Cayman was great but i cannot understand people selling their M3 for a Cayman(s)

THe Cayman is great fun, but the m3 offers more in the most details:
- more power
- more space
- more comfort
- more sound (which is in my opinion very important to the overall driving-expirince)
...

The Cayman is easier to handle, yes. But with some practicing the m3 would make that up.

Just drive both cars
Well I purposely *leased* my M because I know it's a temporary car for me. Why not understand? I explained. And some people prefer the Cayman over the M3 and some the M3 over Cayman, etc.! Each have their own pluses and minuses, like all cars do. They are just totally different to me, and I don't compare them because they are in a similar price range. In fact that's the wrong way to go about it IMO. Just too different cars to do that.

Your points about the M may not mean much to many. I can also say that the Cayman has a better manual transmission, better PDK, better brakes, better steering feel, better clutch, etc. It's more of a pure driver's car. And the sound system is pretty damn good. It's a sports car....So yeah, just different cars. I know what the M has, and it's why I got it instead of an RS4, C63, etc. But I can never compare it to a Cayman as I said. Different class cars.
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      01-16-2009, 10:09 AM   #28
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Well I purposely *leased* my M because I know it's a temporary car for me. Why not understand? I explained. And some people prefer the Cayman over the M3 and some the M3 over Cayman, etc.! Each have their own pluses and minuses, like all cars do. They are just totally different to me, and I don't compare them because they are in a similar price range. In fact that's the wrong way to go about it IMO. Just too different cars to do that.

Your points about the M may not mean much to many. I can also say that the Cayman has a better manual transmission, better PDK, better brakes, better steering feel, better clutch, etc. It's more of a pure driver's car. And the sound system is pretty damn good. It's a sports car....So yeah, just different cars. I know what the M has, and it's why I got it instead of an RS4, C63, etc. But I can never compare it to a Cayman as I said. Different class cars.
Anytime I read someone talking about "pure drivers cars" the BS meter skyrockets.
Years ago Porsche came out with a "limited edition" RS America, which I purchased. It was offered in "pure form" with such items as air conditioning, stereo, and sunroofs as options. I went the non pure route, and ordered mine with all of those, as did pretty much everyone who actually drove the car on the street.

I guess that meant I wasn't a "pure" driver, because I listened to the stereo, and drove with AC in the 100+ temps we get around here.

Saying an M3 is not a "pure drivers car" (besides being totally subjective) is rediculous. I know, older M3's are lighter,as are Lotus Elise's, but it's capable of holding it's own with most cars on the road, and the fact that it can do with with 4 seats just makes it that much more amazing.
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      01-16-2009, 10:30 AM   #29
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Anytime I read someone talking about "pure drivers cars" the BS meter skyrockets.
Years ago Porsche came out with a "limited edition" RS America, which I purchased. It was offered in "pure form" with such items as air conditioning, stereo, and sunroofs as options. I went the non pure route, and ordered mine with all of those, as did pretty much everyone who actually drove the car on the street.

I guess that meant I wasn't a "pure" driver, because I listened to the stereo, and drove with AC in the 100+ temps we get around here.

Saying an M3 is not a "pure drivers car" (besides being totally subjective) is rediculous. I know, older M3's are lighter,as are Lotus Elise's, but it's capable of holding it's own with most cars on the road, and the fact that it can do with with 4 seats just makes it that much more amazing.
I understand what your saying but I think your confusing pure drivers car with pure racers car. I racer doesn't want anything on the car that could slow it down.. however, a driver (most people are commuters I believe) wants the experience of driving without the lack of comforts of a full blown race car. Ironically, the M3 is a great example of this balance. So, to say a stripped down version of a production car is a "pure drivers car" I believe is a little off. Lets be honest, how many of us are tracking out "drivers cars". Even is you are, your probably not competing.. so who cares if you have air conditioning. Just my $.02
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      01-16-2009, 10:39 AM   #30
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Stunnerable,

I think we're in agreement.
Where I am coming from is the suggestion that a Cayman is more of a "pure" drives car than an M3 car.

It might handle and feel different (even better in some cases), but when it comes down to this type of vehicle it really comes down to preference.
I've had a few Porsche's (the last one was the RS) and consider my M3 as much a "pure" drivers car as any of them.

When it comes down to driving stripped down sports cars with harsh suspension and lack of comfort features, they are still road cars and no more "pure" than better equipped offerings.
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      01-16-2009, 10:46 AM   #31
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Stunnerable,

I think we're in agreement.
Where I am coming from is the suggestion that a Cayman is more of a "pure" drives car than an M3 car.

It might handle and feel different (even better in some cases), but when it comes down to this type of vehicle it really comes down to preference.
I've had a few Porsche's (the last one was the RS) and consider my M3 as much a "pure" drivers car as any of them.

When it comes down to driving stripped down sports cars with harsh suspension and lack of comfort features, they are still road cars and no more "pure" than better equipped offerings.
Exactly... It's a shame there aren't more people out there who see things this way. Maybe then we wouldn't have so many tool bags clogging up the high speed lane.
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      01-16-2009, 11:25 AM   #32
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Anytime I read someone talking about "pure drivers cars" the BS meter skyrockets.
Years ago Porsche came out with a "limited edition" RS America, which I purchased. It was offered in "pure form" with such items as air conditioning, stereo, and sunroofs as options. I went the non pure route, and ordered mine with all of those, as did pretty much everyone who actually drove the car on the street.

I guess that meant I wasn't a "pure" driver, because I listened to the stereo, and drove with AC in the 100+ temps we get around here.

Saying an M3 is not a "pure drivers car" (besides being totally subjective) is rediculous. I know, older M3's are lighter,as are Lotus Elise's, but it's capable of holding it's own with most cars on the road, and the fact that it can do with with 4 seats just makes it that much more amazing.
I said,
Quote:
I can also say that the Cayman has a better manual transmission, better PDK, better brakes, better steering feel, better clutch, etc. It's more of a pure driver's car.
Don't get stuck on words like "pure". The fact is that for me, BECAUSE of the things I mentioned + the lighter weight, the Cayman gave me a better driving feel - more connected if you will. It simply was more fun. The M is heavy and feels less connected in many ways. You can feel it - it's pretty damn obvious.... I know all about race cars having done my share of it in SCCA Formula Fords, shifter karts, etc., and know no street car comes close. But the Cayman, 911s, Lotuses, etc. come closer to that feel than the M3, sorry. Regardless if they have A/C, stereo, heated seats, etc. Having said that, the M3 is an amazing machine, just different. It's more compromised, but that's what I need now and what others need or even want/prefer. Which is absolutely fine. But it's another class of car than the Cayman/911s. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Why get so defensive about the M3? I never said anything bad about it - just being objective and stating what I see as true. Read all my posts and try to be objective and less picky on words. People who have or have driven both, agree.
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      01-16-2009, 11:30 AM   #33
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Exactly... It's a shame there aren't more people out there who see things this way. Maybe then we wouldn't have so many tool bags clogging up the high speed lane.
It's a shame people have a difficult time with basic reading comprehension on this forum....
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      01-16-2009, 11:40 AM   #34
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It's a shame people have a difficult time with basic reading comprehension on this forum....
How do you mean?
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      01-16-2009, 01:00 PM   #35
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How do you mean?
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      01-16-2009, 01:05 PM   #36
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You kidding dude?
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      01-16-2009, 01:10 PM   #37
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Sounds like you really want one.

Me too.

A lot of people want a Porsche. Hence the pricing. It's the way of the (capitalistic) world.

More power to 'em. And LSDs, too.

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Yes I do.

However, what I don't want is a Porsche. Bi-Xenons aren't even standard on this car. Most people, at least honest ones, want a Porsche because of its accompanying "prestige." Quite frankly, for me, owning a Porsche would be a bit embarrassing, not to mention a financial albatross for years to come. What required excellent money management skills to be in a position to purchase a Porsche, is now abandoned in one fell swoop, in favor of over the top conspicuous consumption in all its transparency.

The porsche name brand is a licensed trademark where one must come up with an extra 10 k just to have the privilege to continue to pay above and beyond reason for every bit of maintenance, part, accessory and everything else associated with the car. It is the gift to oneself that honors Porsche with a seat at your financial table to determine your economic viability well beyond the life expectancy of the car.

Cayman up side? Plenty. For starters, how about a lack of fluff and bug ridden hocus pocus electronic "aids" that are nothing more than a distraction to the joy of actually driving. These overly complicated distractions are always at ones beckon call, just begging for the opportunity to malfunction at the most inopportune time

Mid engine, and a lightweight. What more needs to be said when talking about the physics associated with acceleration/cornering. Telepathic steering and a 6mt with Mauser like bolt action. How about Brakes that resist fade lap after a lap, excellent storage space for a two seater and lest we forget the lightweight manually adjusted seats that come standard. The Cayman is 100% pure sports car, a vehicle that it's creators resisted the pressures to water down for mass consumption. It is lean and fit, something of a by gone age that is missing in the fabric of today's Americana.

Too bad the Cayman S happens to be a Porsche.
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      01-16-2009, 02:53 PM   #38
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Yes I do.

However, what I don't want is a Porsche. Bi-Xenons aren't even standard on this car. Most people, at least honest ones, want a Porsche because of its accompanying "prestige." Quite frankly, for me, owning a Porsche would be a bit embarrassing, not to mention a financial albatross for years to come. What required excellent money management skills to be in a position to purchase a Porsche, is now abandoned in one fell swoop, in favor of over the top conspicuous consumption in all its transparency.
Never thought this would happen but I wholeheartedly agree.

BTW: According to the German pricelist LSD is available with MT from June on, only in conjunction with 18" or 19" wheels though.



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      01-16-2009, 03:52 PM   #39
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Yes I do.

However, what I don't want is a Porsche. Bi-Xenons aren't even standard on this car. Most people, at least honest ones, want a Porsche because of its accompanying "prestige." Quite frankly, for me, owning a Porsche would be a bit embarrassing, not to mention a financial albatross for years to come. What required excellent money management skills to be in a position to purchase a Porsche, is now abandoned in one fell swoop, in favor of over the top conspicuous consumption in all its transparency.

The porsche name brand is a licensed trademark where one must come up with an extra 10 k just to have the privilege to continue to pay above and beyond reason for every bit of maintenance, part, accessory and everything else associated with the car. It is the gift to oneself that honors Porsche with a seat at your financial table to determine your economic viability well beyond the life expectancy of the car.

Cayman up side? Plenty. For starters, how about a lack of fluff and bug ridden hocus pocus electronic "aids" that are nothing more than a distraction to the joy of actually driving. These overly complicated distractions are always at ones beckon call, just begging for the opportunity to malfunction at the most inopportune time

Mid engine, and a lightweight. What more needs to be said when talking about the physics associated with acceleration/cornering. Telepathic steering and a 6mt with Mauser like bolt action. How about Brakes that resist fade lap after a lap, excellent storage space for a two seater and lest we forget the lightweight manually adjusted seats that come standard. The Cayman is 100% pure sports car, a vehicle that it's creators resisted the pressures to water down for mass consumption. It is lean and fit, something of a by gone age that is missing in the fabric of today's Americana.

Too bad the Cayman S happens to be a Porsche.
Porsche has done a remarkable job of refining the 911 over the years but the laws of physics can not be ignored. Placing the engine behind the rear axle on the 911 makes the car tend to oversteer. The older models in the hands of the average driver could be quite treacherous. The overster came on suddenly and violently.

The mid engined design of the Cayman leads to more neutral handling.

No street car, regardless of how good it is, will give the track performance of a dedicated track car. Of course a dedicated track car besides being illegal on the street does not make for very practical day to day transportation. The Cayman (particurly the S) and the M3 have different characters but both are excellent compromises between performance and day to day driveability. There is a small percentage of the owners of either car that have the skills to push either car to 10/10ths and even those who do have those skills would be foolish to exhibit them on public roads. I am a member of the Cayman club and had this very graphically demonstrated lst October during our Fall Foliage Run in the Catskill Mountains. One of the members lost control of his Cayman and went off the road and over a cliff. The car wound up on its side against a tree about 50' down a 100' ravine. Fortunatelly both driver and passenger escaped unscathed but every time I decided to play out my Micheal Schumacher fantasies I think of the sight of that crashed Cayman.

There is a thread on this forum describing the incident.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179384


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      01-16-2009, 04:02 PM   #40
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Yes I do.

Too bad the Cayman S happens to be a Porsche.
You say that most "honest" people want a Porsche for the prestige it may or may not bring them. Perhaps. I can't quantify that any more than I can those that buy BMWs, Mercedes, etc. for the same reason. But at the same time you say owning a Porsche for you would be embarrassing, even if it means owning the very car you covet so much because of its abilities/design/performance (the Cayman S in your case). And to me, that attitude is the same as the "owning for prestige" attitude. The right attitude is to get the car you like and forget about image, car marketing, company tactics, etc. Unless it's not financially feasible, in which case sorry, but that's how the world runs - like it or not. Hey, I'd like to have a 911GT3RS, but I can't afford it. I'm not going to get all philosophical about why Porsche prices it in a certain way, etc. It's a useless debate and does no good. But I'm not going to say too bad it's a Porsche. Porsche is doing what most high-end car companies do. I don't see BMW being better at all. They pull the same stunts with useless gimmicks, force you to buy packages (at least in the US) instead of individual options, etc. It's how it is. Furthermore ALL cars are overpriced, period. Do we not buy anything and look for reform? Let's be realistic...
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      01-16-2009, 04:21 PM   #41
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Porsche has done a remarkable job of refining the 911 over the years but the laws of physics can not be ignored. Placing the engine behind the rear axle on the 911 makes the car tend to oversteer. The older models in the hands of the average driver could be quite treacherous. The overster came on suddenly and violently.

The mid engined design of the Cayman leads to more neutral handling.

No street car, regardless of how good it is, will give the track performance of a dedicated track car. Of course a dedicated track car besides being illegal on the street does not make for very practical day to day transportation. The Cayman (particurly the S) and the M3 have different characters but both are excellent compromises between performance and day to day driveability. There is a small percentage of the owners of either car that have the skills to push either car to 10/10ths and even those who do have those skills would be foolish to exhibit them on public roads. I am a member of the Cayman club and had this very graphically demonstrated lst October during our Fall Foliage Run in the Catskill Mountains. One of the members lost control of his Cayman and went off the road and over a cliff. The car wound up on its side against a tree about 50' down a 100' ravine. Fortunatelly both driver and passenger escaped unscathed but every time I decided to play out my Micheal Schumacher fantasies I think of the sight of that crashed Cayman.

CA
Didn't that driver encounter a deer? Or was that a made up story to cover up a mistake? In either case, road racing/driving even 8/10ths is stupid. And most people don't even know what 8/10ths is. Forget 10/10ths. I've taken people for drives in their own cars at tracks, and they are always amazed to see how much more their cars can do than what they originally thought. This is why I say most don't even know 8/10ths.

IMO, every car enthusiast should take some lessons in their own car in stock form - stock tires, brakes, etc. Why? To find out the limits of the car they drive on the streets 99% of the time. No real lesson learned in finding the limits on R compound tires, better brakes, etc., if that's not what you drive your car normally on. Yet I see so many doing all these crazy modifications to their daily drivers! It makes no sense and they get a false sense of the limit when back on the street. It makes sense if you your track car is a 100% dedicated track car, but for the majority it isn't. It baffles my mind when I see all the performance enhancing mods people make and talk about making, when they will never even reach the limits of their cars in stock form! People here talking about the weight of a moonroof, the weight of the stock battery, etc. How to gain 15-30 more HP and lose some weight. It's almost comical. Am I to believe that they've reached the limit of the stock M3 and need more? The notion is funny if not sad in a way. Cosmetic mods are different of course. But I digress...
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      01-16-2009, 05:18 PM   #42
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Didn't that driver encounter a deer? Or was that a made up story to cover up a mistake? In either case, road racing/driving even 8/10ths is stupid. And most people don't even know what 8/10ths is. Forget 10/10ths. I've taken people for drives in their own cars at tracks, and they are always amazed to see how much more their cars can do than what they originally thought. This is why I say most don't even know 8/10ths.

IMO, every car enthusiast should take some lessons in their own car in stock form - stock tires, brakes, etc. Why? To find out the limits of the car they drive on the streets 99% of the time. No real lesson learned in finding the limits on R compound tires, better brakes, etc., if that's not what you drive your car normally on. Yet I see so many doing all these crazy modifications to their daily drivers! It makes no sense and they get a false sense of the limit when back on the street. It makes sense if you your track car is a 100% dedicated track car, but for the majority it isn't. It baffles my mind when I see all the performance enhancing mods people make and talk about making, when they will never even reach the limits of their cars in stock form! People here talking about the weight of a moonroof, the weight of the stock battery, etc. How to gain 15-30 more HP and lose some weight. It's almost comical. Am I to believe that they've reached the limit of the stock M3 and need more? The notion is funny if not sad in a way. Cosmetic mods are different of course. But I digress...
Excellent post.

The limits of modern performance oriented cars (Cayman, M3. 335i, etc.) are very high. Many drivers have gotten away with driving well above the speed limit with no consequences and become overconfident. When something finally does go wrong they have no idea what to do because this is their first experience with the car breaking loose.

After the Cayman incident I was discussing what happened with a friend who had been my passenger that day and had also seen the Cayman on its side halfway down the ravine. I asked her how many time she had lost control of a car and her answer was "never". She asked me the same question and my answer was "hundreds". When she looked surprised I told her that I have participated at least 25 Skip Barber Car Control Clinics and regularly go on the skid pad and autocross course with the Lime Rock Club. The idea of these excercises is to learn what it feels like when a car is about to break loose and to do it in a safe and controlled environment. The only way to learn this is by actually having the car break loose and learning how to "catch" the slide. The trick is to regain control rapidly. The vast majority of slides can be "fixed" but it requires practice to learn how to do it and you need to keep practicing to keep your skills honed.

I often state that I have learned two things from these experiences.

1. I am a much better driver than I was.
2. I am nowhere near as good a driver as I thought I was.


CA
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      01-16-2009, 05:55 PM   #43
ruff
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You say that most "honest" people want a Porsche for the prestige it may or may not bring them. Perhaps. I can't quantify that any more than I can those that buy BMWs, Mercedes, etc. for the same reason. But at the same time you say owning a Porsche for you would be embarrassing, even if it means owning the very car you covet so much because of its abilities/design/performance (the Cayman S in your case). And to me, that attitude is the same as the "owning for prestige" attitude. The right attitude is to get the car you like and forget about image, car marketing, company tactics, etc. Unless it's not financially feasible, in which case sorry, but that's how the world runs - like it or not. Hey, I'd like to have a 911GT3RS, but I can't afford it. I'm not going to get all philosophical about why Porsche prices it in a certain way, etc. It's a useless debate and does no good. But I'm not going to say too bad it's a Porsche. Porsche is doing what most high-end car companies do. I don't see BMW being better at all. They pull the same stunts with useless gimmicks, force you to buy packages (at least in the US) instead of individual options, etc. It's how it is. Furthermore ALL cars are overpriced, period. Do we not buy anything and look for reform? Let's be realistic...
Urbo,

Of course, all premium car companies use their "prestige" to gouge the willing consumer, who assumes he has more money than he knows what to do with, not to mention, more vanity than financial sense. Ferrari, Porsche and Harley Davidson just happen to be better marketers than their competitors. In fact, they are so good, they have brainwashed the masses into believing the cult status of their devotees and their products. If other like minded thinkers, such as yourself, continue to buy into the whole "prestige" and marketing line these companies successfully propagate to their apologists, then yes, they will continue to make a profit, even in a tepid economy.

However, I believe in the power of every purchase or non purchase having an impact on the ability of these companies to maintain there ability to gauge, even the devoted. Each and every purchase or non purchase does add up, especially in tough economic times. Maybe in the high circles you associate with, your community is immune to a down economy and the reduction in people's levels of discretionary spending for such items as premium sports cars. The real problem for Porsche and these other companies is that the economy will force many, even some of the apologists, to face the fact that there are simply no longer the monetary means to continue their conspicuous consumption and devotion to their Marque, despite their vanity.
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      01-16-2009, 06:33 PM   #44
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Urbo,

Of course, all premium car companies use their "prestige" to gouge the willing consumer, who assumes he has more money than he knows what to do with, not to mention, more vanity than financial sense. Ferrari, Porsche and Harley Davidson just happen to be better marketers than their competitors. In fact, they are so good, they have brainwashed the masses into believing the cult status of their devotees and their products. If other like minded thinkers, such as yourself, continue to buy into the whole "prestige" and marketing line these companies successfully propagate to their apologists, then yes, they will continue to make a profit, even in a tepid economy.

However, I believe in the power of every purchase or non purchase having an impact on the ability of these companies to maintain there ability to gauge, even the devoted. Each and every purchase or non purchase does add up, especially in tough economic times. Maybe in the high circles you associate with, your community is immune to a down economy and the reduction in people's levels of discretionary spending for such items as premium sports cars. The real problem for Porsche and these other companies is that the economy will force many, even some of the apologists, to face the fact that there are simply no longer the monetary means to continue their conspicuous consumption and devotion to their Marque, despite their vanity.
Why do you label me an apologist and say I'm buying into their marketing and am like-minded, etc.? Why do you assume I spend my time in high circles and am immune to the down economy? Because I said I'd like to have a 911GT3RS???? You make a lot of incorrect assumptions when you don't even know me. This means you make incorrect assumptions in general, which is not good. I have no devotion to any car company or company in general, and am reasonable with my money - not that, that's your business. I can go buy a 911GT3RS today and track it, since it's what I'm used to from racing. It's the car I like best. But as I said I can't afford it. Afford as in JUSTIFY it to myself to spend that much on a car at this point in my life. Not that I don't have the money. There is a difference.

Also the "real problem for Porsche and these other companies" is good news for me if they lower their prices if there is less demand.
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