BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
Alpine HID
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-23-2008, 11:24 PM   #1
Sticky
Banned
 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

Posts: 2,244
iTrader: (0)

BMW Performance Accesories - carbon ceramic brakes coming?

Check out this teaser video BMW released:

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/owners/acc...e_3/start.html

Seems to me those are carbon ceramic brakes on the car. If they are going to have them for the regular 3 series, I am sure we will have them available for the M3 soon.

Thought it was interesting.

* EDIT * : Seems BMW took down the orignal video, looking for a mirror.

Mirror:

Last edited by Sticky; 11-24-2008 at 12:16 AM.
Sticky is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-23-2008, 11:59 PM   #2
watrob
Major
 
watrob's Avatar
 
Drives: MY2013 X5M 50d - White
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brisbane - Australia

Posts: 1,488
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Check out this teaser video BMW released:

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/owners/acc...e_3/start.html

Seems to me those are carbon ceramic brakes on the car. If they are going to have them for the regular 3 series, I am sure we will have them available for the M3 soon.

Thought it was interesting.
I don't think they are, there just a performance brake kit that is available and has been for a couple months now here in Australia!
__________________

X5 M50d White, 20"rims, Adaptive Drive, HUD, Xenon Adapt Lights, Rear/Side Camera, Sunroof, Auto Tailgate, Comfort Access, Active Perforated Ventilated Comfort Seats, M Paddle Shift, Active Crus, Stop/Go, Proff Nav + TV, DAB, 16 Spk Ind HiFi, USB, Internet, Apps, 4 Zone Air, Towbar 20% Tint, 5mm Castor Bushes, Yellow Calipers, Ceramic Pads
watrob is offline   Australia
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 12:11 AM   #3
Sticky
Banned
 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

Posts: 2,244
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by watrob View Post
I don't think they are, there just a performance brake kit that is available and has been for a couple months now here in Australia!
I paused it and zoomed in to take a closer look, it looks like a carbon ceramic rotor under the light. I guess maybe it isn't, oh well, still nice to speculate.
Sticky is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 12:29 AM   #4
watrob
Major
 
watrob's Avatar
 
Drives: MY2013 X5M 50d - White
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brisbane - Australia

Posts: 1,488
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
I paused it and zoomed in to take a closer look, it looks like a carbon ceramic rotor under the light. I guess maybe it isn't, oh well, still nice to speculate.

I would be just happy to get any sort of brake option for the M3!
__________________

X5 M50d White, 20"rims, Adaptive Drive, HUD, Xenon Adapt Lights, Rear/Side Camera, Sunroof, Auto Tailgate, Comfort Access, Active Perforated Ventilated Comfort Seats, M Paddle Shift, Active Crus, Stop/Go, Proff Nav + TV, DAB, 16 Spk Ind HiFi, USB, Internet, Apps, 4 Zone Air, Towbar 20% Tint, 5mm Castor Bushes, Yellow Calipers, Ceramic Pads
watrob is offline   Australia
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 12:36 AM   #5
Ali@BMWMt.laurel
Colonel
 
Ali@BMWMt.laurel's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United States

Posts: 2,123
iTrader: (7)

Garage List
2013 BMW 335i  [0.00]
I will find out!
__________________
BMW of Mount Laurel - ///M Certified Client Advisor
Send Me a Message Regarding Your Next BMW!
www.BMWofMtLaurel.com
We are an M-Certified and DINAN Certified Dealer
NJ Motorsports Park Affiliated!!! PM ME FOR DETAILS
Ali@BMWMt.laurel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 12:45 AM   #6
AUH
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: 2014 M6 Gran Coupe
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: UAE

Posts: 43
iTrader: (0)

Nope they look like normal upgraded brakes.

Go to the following link and scroll down and click on 'Braking System': http://www.bmw.com/com/en/owners/acc....html?cat=1008

Heres the text from that link:
"Braking system*
The BMW Performance braking system is designed to facilitate a sporty driving style. The six-piston aluminium fixed callipers and grooved, cross-drilled discs give drivers an incredible amount of control, even in the wet, while their low weight reduces the unsprung mass of the car. Calipers painted in BMW Performance Yellow are a striking visual feature. For detailed information please contact your BMW partner."
Attached Images
 
AUH is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 12:51 AM   #7
jworms
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 99 E36 M3, 07 328i
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Redondo Beach, CA

Posts: 256
iTrader: (0)

That car looks/sounds amazing! Can't wait to see what they come up with for the M3! Good game BMW! Well done!

EDIT: The seats were swapped out for race seats. Can we say weight reduction? BMW may not be making the CSL, but it seems like they are at least making the parts that would have been used in it available. I'd venture to guess that those seats would reduce at least 75lbs. The brakes and wheels might reduce weight too and that's not considering all the carbon fiber pieces that are shown. Something over 100lbs of weight reduction seems likely with the performance parts. Very cool!

Last edited by jworms; 11-24-2008 at 01:13 AM.
jworms is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 01:03 AM   #8
Sticky
Banned
 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

Posts: 2,244
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saif View Post
Nope they look like normal upgraded brakes.

Go to the following link and scroll down and click on 'Braking System': http://www.bmw.com/com/en/owners/acc....html?cat=1008

Heres the text from that link:
"Braking system*
The BMW Performance braking system is designed to facilitate a sporty driving style. The six-piston aluminium fixed callipers and grooved, cross-drilled discs give drivers an incredible amount of control, even in the wet, while their low weight reduces the unsprung mass of the car. Calipers painted in BMW Performance Yellow are a striking visual feature. For detailed information please contact your BMW partner."
Yep, looks like the regular brakes.

Here is to hoping we see carbon ceramics from BMW performance.
Sticky is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 01:26 AM   #9
doba_s
Major General
 
doba_s's Avatar
 
Drives: M3, 1M
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 6,101
iTrader: (26)

Send a message via Skype™ to doba_s
here is more info ... not expensive upgrade !

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...catalogid=4462
doba_s is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 01:48 AM   #10
moog55
Major
 
moog55's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Seattle

Posts: 1,110
iTrader: (1)

i think these performance brakes have been discussed before and the verdict is that they are not as good as the stock M3 brakes.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray | Black Novillo |M-DCT | Mods: 20" BBS LM Champion Edition |H&R springs | BMW glossy black grilles | matte black side vents | hardwire V1 | CF roundels | smoked reflectors | BMW aluminum pedals | OSS led angel eyes | 6000k lows | Eisenmann Race exhaust + connecting pipes| Eclipse Diffuser | BMW ZCP CF Splitters & CF Rear Spoiler | IND Custom CF & Space Grey mirrors | ModMyNav front cam, rear cam, iPod video player | Powerchip Stage 2 tune | BMW v2 electronic steering wheel |
moog55 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 01:49 AM   #11
Sticky
Banned
 
Drives: E92 Jerez DCT M3
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Anaheim Hills / Malibu

Posts: 2,244
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by moog55 View Post
i think these performance brakes have been discussed before and the verdict is that they are not as good as the stock M3 brakes.
They aren't for the M3.
Sticky is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 02:07 PM   #12
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,939
iTrader: (1)

There is no way I would hold my breath for CC brakes for the M3. The rotors are just way too expensive. Most of what you get from CC rotors is just longer life and weight reduction not really improved braking distances nor fade resistance.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 06:28 PM   #13
aus
Major General
 
Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

Posts: 7,216
iTrader: (5)

You guys aren's seriously excited about the BMW performance brakes for the 135/335???
They're smaller than your stock brakes. The only advantage is the nice looking calipers.

Besides, would you really want this to happen:



Here's the thread: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18453
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

Last edited by aus; 11-25-2008 at 12:31 AM.
aus is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 06:55 PM   #14
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Most of what you get from CC rotors is just longer life and weight reduction not really improved braking distances nor fade resistance.
These guys seem to think differently for sure based on their comparison and test drive of the Enzo vs. the MC12 on the Ring, which appearently have the same chassis and drivetrain (I didn't know that), but the Enzo has ceramic brakes and the MC12 doesn't. They complain about fade with the MC12, which they attribute to the steel rotors.

http://www.supercarmovies.com/html/interface.html
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 06:57 PM   #15
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
You guys aren's seriously excited about the BMW performance brakes for the 135/335???
They're smaller than your stock brakes. The only advantage is the nice looking calipers.

Besides, would you really want this to happen:

Here's the thread: http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/wleng/IMG_0570.jpg
How did that piston crack exactly? Your link to the thread brings up the picture.
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-24-2008, 07:16 PM   #16
watrob
Major
 
watrob's Avatar
 
Drives: MY2013 X5M 50d - White
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brisbane - Australia

Posts: 1,488
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
How did that piston crack exactly? Your link to the thread brings up the picture.
Judging from the picture they got hot, real hot, damn hot!
__________________

X5 M50d White, 20"rims, Adaptive Drive, HUD, Xenon Adapt Lights, Rear/Side Camera, Sunroof, Auto Tailgate, Comfort Access, Active Perforated Ventilated Comfort Seats, M Paddle Shift, Active Crus, Stop/Go, Proff Nav + TV, DAB, 16 Spk Ind HiFi, USB, Internet, Apps, 4 Zone Air, Towbar 20% Tint, 5mm Castor Bushes, Yellow Calipers, Ceramic Pads
watrob is offline   Australia
0
Reply With Quote
      11-25-2008, 12:33 AM   #17
aus
Major General
 
Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

Posts: 7,216
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
How did that piston crack exactly? Your link to the thread brings up the picture.
My bad. It's fixed now.

It appears a racing team had some race pads custom cut for the caliper. Then they destoyed two sets of calipers one of which was loaned to them from another racer!!

The guys who loaned them his calipers said he used the stock pads and KILLED them, but had no problems with the piston's falling apart. There are a lot more pic's in that thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Su
I don't think it's an isolated issue. I think it'll happen every single time in the right conditions. I think it's the track pads causing a lot more heat and sustaining that heat is probably causing the damage. Something that BMW did not anticipate I guess. The AutoX guys should be ok as I don't think the short runs will build enough heat to cause damage.

We've run about 6 track days on our OEM brembo caliper. All 6 days were run on the same OEM pad. The brakes were worked pretty hard and for a long period of time, enough to get smoke billowing out the wheels heavily. By the time we took off the OEM caliper and swapped to the Brembo BBK, the pads were falling apart. However, the caliper looked fine. This same OEM caliper was loaned to Scott which apparrently didn't even last 1 event. The logical variable here is the brake pads.

I'm pretty sure Scott will figure out a solution quickly. They have no choice, they can't upgrade.
More pic's half way down the thread here: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...t=18453&page=4

And a follow-up thread showing the piston's taken out of the caliper: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...453#post277453
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
aus is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-25-2008, 02:25 AM   #18
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,939
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
These guys seem to think differently for sure based on their comparison and test drive of the Enzo vs. the MC12 on the Ring, which appearently have the same chassis and drivetrain (I didn't know that), but the Enzo has ceramic brakes and the MC12 doesn't. They complain about fade with the MC12, which they attribute to the steel rotors.

http://www.supercarmovies.com/html/interface.html
Honestly I did not even watch the video but I still ave a reply ready (does that make me automatically wrong or cocky?). Drivers and journalists are not always correct and are know to speculate as well.

Brake pads need to have properties that are tailored to the temperatures they will see. In this regards track pads have it easy as they often only have to work well warm to hot, maybe just hot only depending on the track. Street pads are obviously different. Of course the pad is developed to match the rotor in terms of friction, wear and material transfer but the rotor material is not the magic - it is the pad. So again CC rotors provide: decreased weight, increased lifetime and great resistance to warpage from heat. Fade is caused by pad and/or fluid problems. Assuming the pads were properly matched to the rotors and that both systems were adequately cooled and all else was apples the apples fade should be similar. So in conclusion I would simply bet the pads were not up to the task. They were surely different pads but I'd say different but not equal.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-25-2008, 07:09 AM   #19
Mickb
Private First Class
 
Drives: AW/FR E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ireland

Posts: 137
iTrader: (0)

Swamp,

Not meaning to disagree, but a lot of the alleged advantages of ceramics (namely longevity and resistance to warpage) have not been borne out in practice for some manufacturers at least.

Carbon ceramics are not the be all end all that they are made out to be. Look at Porsche. Huge problems with rotor life, ironically when tracking which is supposed to be the environment they are designed for. Lots of horror stories of carbon rotors cracking after 2-3 track days. Loads of Gt3 owners have [down?]graded to steels, due to this issue and then re-fit the carbons when selling the car. Alcon in particular, offer an aftermarket rotor that works with the OEM pistons that come with the ceramics, just for this issue.

That coupled with the fact that the replacements are hard to obtain and cost a fortune, means that IMO they are for bragging rights only.

Mick
Mickb is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-25-2008, 08:12 AM   #20
lucid
Major General
 
lucid's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 8,034
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Honestly I did not even watch the video but I still ave a reply ready (does that make me automatically wrong or cocky?). Drivers and journalists are not always correct and are know to speculate as well.

Brake pads need to have properties that are tailored to the temperatures they will see. In this regards track pads have it easy as they often only have to work well warm to hot, maybe just hot only depending on the track. Street pads are obviously different. Of course the pad is developed to match the rotor in terms of friction, wear and material transfer but the rotor material is not the magic - it is the pad. So again CC rotors provide: decreased weight, increased lifetime and great resistance to warpage from heat. Fade is caused by pad and/or fluid problems. Assuming the pads were properly matched to the rotors and that both systems were adequately cooled and all else was apples the apples fade should be similar. So in conclusion I would simply bet the pads were not up to the task. They were surely different pads but I'd say different but not equal.
I suggest you watch the videos. The guy is getting sub 7:30 times. He is not a journalist. He knows what he is doing. That doesn't make him an engineer or an expert on brake system, but one would think he would know about potential pad issues. That's not rocket science. Everybody knows pads can and will cause fade if not chosen properly for the application--meaning, what you wrote above is common knowledge. If they are singling out the discs, I must assume they have considered and discounted the pads as the issue. If they haven't, then they are either really stupid or have an agenda.

I personally haven't done any serious research on ceramic discs, so I don't have a position.
__________________
lucid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-25-2008, 04:59 PM   #21
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,939
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickb View Post
Swamp,

Not meaning to disagree, but a lot of the alleged advantages of ceramics (namely longevity and resistance to warpage) have not been borne out in practice for some manufacturers at least.

Carbon ceramics are not the be all end all that they are made out to be. Look at Porsche. Huge problems with rotor life, ironically when tracking which is supposed to be the environment they are designed for. Lots of horror stories of carbon rotors cracking after 2-3 track days. Loads of Gt3 owners have [down?]graded to steels, due to this issue and then re-fit the carbons when selling the car. Alcon in particular, offer an aftermarket rotor that works with the OEM pistons that come with the ceramics, just for this issue.

That coupled with the fact that the replacements are hard to obtain and cost a fortune, means that IMO they are for bragging rights only.

Mick
Good input. Disagree at will! I always like your posts.

I have heard some horror stories about these brakes rotors. It could be manufacturing issues, quality issues or a variety of other factors. I don't think it is the norm though, but that is mostly a guess. Do you think it is truly the norm? I do believe the material is an amazing one and it has been used very successfully in aerospace brakes, racing brakes and other tortuous industrial applications. There are always some growing pains when switching from very well understood materials in specific applications to very different materials for the same application. Many industries experienced a lot of growing pains moving from metallics to composites (like cabon fiber) for structural applications. This switch will have some of the same growing pains.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-25-2008, 05:02 PM   #22
swamp2
Major General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 9,939
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I suggest you watch the videos. The guy is getting sub 7:30 times. He is not a journalist. He knows what he is doing. That doesn't make him an engineer or an expert on brake system, but one would think he would know about potential pad issues. That's not rocket science. Everybody knows pads can and will cause fade if not chosen properly for the application--meaning, what you wrote above is common knowledge. If they are singling out the discs, I must assume they have considered and discounted the pads as the issue. If they haven't, then they are either really stupid or have an agenda.

I personally haven't done any serious research on ceramic discs, so I don't have a position.
A great driver does not make a great engineer (not vice versa!) that is really all I have to say about it. Pure speculation from a driver is as reasonable of an explanation as stupidity or an agenda is it not?
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:31 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST