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      12-25-2008, 10:15 PM   #23
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I may be biased but I just loved this
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      12-25-2008, 10:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
Traction would explain how it (997) was able to match the M3 to 60mph or even up to 100mph but for the Porsche to beat the M3 at the 150 point doesn't add up if the PTW is correct for both cars.

Though the 997 drivetrain would be more efficient.
The 997 drivetrain is more efficient but the M3 puts out more RWHP than even the 997S.
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      12-26-2008, 09:52 AM   #25
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Traction would explain how it (997) was able to match the M3 to 60mph or even up to 100mph but for the Porsche to beat the M3 at the 150 point doesn't add up if the PTW is correct for both cars.

Though the 997 drivetrain would be more efficient.
At a guess, the 911 punches an aerodynamically smaller hole through the air, giving it the advantage when such things become more important than power to weight.

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      12-26-2008, 12:33 PM   #26
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At a guess, the 911 punches an aerodynamically smaller hole through the air, giving it the advantage when such things become more important than power to weight.

Bruce
That's a definite possibility. Who knows how they're geared as well?
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      12-26-2008, 02:50 PM   #27
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That's a definite possibility. Who knows how they're geared as well?
I do, since I read the test with associated data panels. The M3 is geared more aggressively across the board, with slightly tighter gear spacing, as well. That's a key reason why I think it may very well be aerodynamics. That, plus what has already been noted here in regard to the Porsche maybe having the advantage in terms of driveline efficiency.

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      12-26-2008, 03:21 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
Here's the vid

This is obviously a pre-facelifted (997.1) 911S. The 997.2 S will do much, much better.
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      12-26-2008, 03:23 PM   #29
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"The M3 M DCT simply does everything well except tow a hot-dog stand. It may even be the second-best car in the world after the M3 manual."
"Car & Driver"
--- RIGHT ON!!



NOW THIS is what I'm talkin' about! THIS is why I "turned in" my 911 Turbo for the chance to "upgrade" to the new M3. These guys at Car and Driver GET IT!

THIS is how I felt when I 1st drove MY M3. I felt and still feel like it's the BEST car I've EVER driven south of $100,000!!!

As I've said in previous posts (including my intro post), the M3 put the Carrera S to shame in my many test drives of SEVERAL different 911 S's. ..and THAT my friends is why I own a BMW M3 after 4 Porsche's before it!!!

Car & Driver REALLY got it right this time!

Just curious, was your "upgrade" from a 997tt or 996tt?
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      12-26-2008, 03:29 PM   #30
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Just curious, was your "upgrade" from a 997tt or 996tt?
Uh... Check my sig.

Not sure how I could "upgrade" from a 997TT to an M3
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      12-26-2008, 03:48 PM   #31
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Uh... Check my sig.

Not sure how I could "upgrade" from a 997TT to an M3
I had no idea if your sig was representative of the 911 turbo that you traded.

Last edited by devo; 12-26-2008 at 04:10 PM.
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      12-26-2008, 09:58 PM   #32
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My initial thoughts above that the power to weight ratios don't justify the observed difference were likely unfounded. Although seemingly a bit contradictory, the achieved performance figures are seen as quite realistic with some CarTest simlation runs. Although the rear weight bias likely helps improve results right from the dig, those results don't show up in simulation, offering only a mere 0.1 s total advantage by 150 mph. However, substituting the M3s worse frontal area and Cd we see a significant difference. Bruce - your guess was spot on. The 911 with the M3s aerodynamics would be 1.8 s slower to 150 mph. I don't believe Stickys speculation that the cars have any significant difference in drivetrain efficiencies, simulations matched these test results quite well with identical total losses 14% (1% auxiliaries, 13% total mechanical). What else is interesting is the difference the hp of the S model will make...

The S will likely achieve 0-60 in under 4, 0-100 in a shade over 9, 0-150 in under 23 and the 1/4 mi in about 12.2@116. It will be quicker all around than the M3, strip and track. But at $90k USD (base price with PDK and nearly no options) I'd still call it a drivers race and quite a poor performance to price ratio compared to the M3.
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      12-26-2008, 11:59 PM   #33
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One thing that hasn't been noted is that the P-car was sans the Sport Chrono package. So, those straight line numbers were without launch control. It may have left a few tenths on the table.
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      12-27-2008, 01:11 AM   #34
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OK I actually read the review and watched that small video. Another silly magazine comparison test (IMO) that tests cars based on price range to show I'm not sure what really to be honest. That you can buy a BMW for the same price as a base/stripped 911 and have close numbers (or same/less/better in some areas/tests) these days? Why not get the 911 then? Less amenities? Less practical? Maybe one doesn't care about that... Or because C&D drivers prefer the BMW's feel? What if you don't? Is that not what it really came down to?

The main thing is that a 911 and an M3 feel COMPLETELY different to drive. They may have similar/close numbers, but they are in a different class, aimed at different buyers (unless it's for buyers looking just at numbers - and who does just that?). I'm not saying one is better than the other (unlike C&D did). So the "winner" is the car YOU prefer to drive, not the one C&D editors prefer. Numbers are half the story. The driving feel is what counts for me (and most people I'd like to think). You want a lighter, sporty feeling car that you can toss around more easily? Get the 911 - any flavor will do. Get a Cayman! You want a car that is a balance between luxury and sport, more practical in terms of space, etc, then get the M3. I did. I wouldn't mind having both though. In fact I would if I could afford it. I can't and need the M3 for now. So the M3 is my "winner" for now, based on my current lifestyle. The 911 will be my "winner" later, just as it was before.

Has driving been reduced just to numbers? I can maybe understand it if we had to go racing for a season and had to choose the car with the slighter edge - however tiny. But for everyday/street/ocassional track driving, which is what these cars are really for, the numbers aren't that important. The fun factor is, and the fun factor is not something that can be measured. So I take these comparison tests with a smile. A silly smile. Just give me the numbers, and *I'll* declare the winner.
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      12-27-2008, 01:57 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbo73 View Post
OK I actually read the review and watched that small video. Another silly magazine comparison test (IMO) that tests cars based on price range to show I'm not sure what really to be honest.

...

The fun factor is, and the fun factor is not something that can be measured. So I take these comparison tests with a smile. A silly smile. Just give me the numbers, and *I'll* declare the winner.
Good post. I guess I agree and disagree. Sure there are very many parts of a car that come down to aesthetics and emotion and those are very powerful choice determinants. However, sports cars are about performance and performance is essentially all about the numbers. Most important factors that make a great sports car can be measured and are hence tested and reported; acceleration, braking, cornering g's, lap times, etc. Similarly many buyers do have a self imposed or true fiscal limitation in their vehicle choice and many do simply want the most bang for the buck in a given class of car.
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      12-27-2008, 02:23 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by urbo73 View Post
Has driving been reduced just to numbers? I can maybe understand it if we had to go racing for a season and had to choose the car with the slighter edge - however tiny. But for everyday/street/ocassional track driving, which is what these cars are really for, the numbers aren't that important. The fun factor is, and the fun factor is not something that can be measured. So I take these comparison tests with a smile. A silly smile. Just give me the numbers, and *I'll* declare the winner.
+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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      12-27-2008, 05:21 AM   #37
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However, sports cars are about performance and performance is essentially all about the numbers. Most important factors that make a great sports car can be measured and are hence tested and reported; acceleration, braking, cornering g's, lap times, etc.
I am not disagreeing just because it is you, no doubt Enigma will speak up soon and agree with me on this.

You feel a sports car is solely about performance and essentially about the figures they produce and thus people first and foremost pick a car based on these groups of figures. Only the very shallow ones.

Take some examples, an M3 which is probably the most practical sports coupe/saloon current on sale (if you excluded the GTR) and then look at the most basic Lotus Elise. One can pull 100mph in 9.5~10s and is capable (unlimited) of 190mph, while the other is capable 100mph in over 16s and can't quite reach 130mph. Based on the opinion that figures matter most to people then no one in their right mind would pick the Lotus never mind test drive it, but if they ever did make the decision and take that test drive, or better still drive it on a track they would understand completely that pure figures are not really that important as it's the experience that at times can make up for any real performance deficiency.

Quote:
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Similarly many buyers do have a self imposed or true fiscal limitation in their vehicle choice and many do simply want the most bang for the buck in a given class of car.
Bang for your buck is not a reason for picking one car over another, if that were true then all of those 335 vs M3 thread would have been correct. Is the Porsche worth all this extra cash? well that is up to the individual and is not something that can be justified on a pure monetary level.
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      12-27-2008, 05:34 AM   #38
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Bang for your buck is not a reason for picking one car over another, if that were true then all of those 335 vs M3 thread would have been correct. Is the Porsche worth all this extra cash? well that is up to the individual and is not something that can be justified on a pure monetary level.
+1 You took the word right out of my mouth. It is funny when the 335 guys say that the M3 guys say " Well, it's still not an M3 and I would gladly pay for it" but when the tables are turned, they completely change their tune. Funny!
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      12-27-2008, 08:56 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ronin13 View Post
One thing that hasn't been noted is that the P-car was sans the Sport Chrono package. So, those straight line numbers were without launch control. It may have left a few tenths on the table.
Very true. Sport Chrono is a must have with PDK. Otherwise the owner is missing a big part of the performance package. Same goes for the turbo. Quite frankly, I can't believe that PAG doesn't make these options standard.
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      12-27-2008, 10:54 AM   #40
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Very true. Sport Chrono is a must have with PDK. Otherwise the owner is missing a big part of the performance package. Same goes for the turbo. Quite frankly, I can't believe that PAG doesn't make these options standard.
PAG like BMW (and all car manufacturers) are into selling options and packages. It's just marketing and business practice.

Plus if they didn't have these options and packages, Internet forum posters would perhaps cease to argue over their benefits or lack of, etc. Porsche guys arguing over PASM and Sports Chrono, BMW M3 guys arguing over the Tech Package, MDM, EDC, etc. And to have quiet Internet forums would perhaps lead some to boredom, depression, and worse...

So PAG, BMW and the rest are doing *humanity* a favor!
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      12-27-2008, 04:21 PM   #41
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...Has driving been reduced just to numbers? I can maybe understand it if we had to go racing for a season and had to choose the car with the slighter edge - however tiny. But for everyday/street/ocassional track driving, which is what these cars are really for, the numbers aren't that important. The fun factor is, and the fun factor is not something that can be measured. So I take these comparison tests with a smile. A silly smile. Just give me the numbers, and *I'll* declare the winner.
No road test done by someone else can substitute for one of your own, but if the authors are any good, then you can get something of a feel for a car (especially in a comparison test) by the verbiage, and a feel for the numbers from the test results panel. However, for me, the best part of those comparision tests in either Car & Driver or Road & Track is the comparison panel that rates the cars in multiple categories. It doesn't matter a bit what the total scores are. Just look at the various categories that are important to you and see who wins. Don't care about trunk space? Fine. Throw it out. Don't care about ergonomics? Okeydoke. It's gone. Fun to drive is tops with you? Fine, it's right there.

There's real value in these kinds of rating schemes.

Bruce
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      12-27-2008, 04:47 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
No road test done by someone else can substitute for one of your own, but if the authors are any good, then you can get something of a feel for a car (especially in a comparison test) by the verbiage, and a feel for the numbers from the test results panel. However, for me, the best part of those comparision tests in either Car & Driver or Road & Track is the comparison panel that rates the cars in multiple categories. It doesn't matter a bit what the total scores are. Just look at the various categories that are important to you and see who wins. Don't care about trunk space? Fine. Throw it out. Don't care about ergonomics? Okeydoke. It's gone. Fun to drive is tops with you? Fine, it's right there.

There's real value in these kinds of rating schemes.

Bruce
+1.
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      12-27-2008, 04:53 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
No road test done by someone else can substitute for one of your own, but if the authors are any good, then you can get something of a feel for a car (especially in a comparison test) by the verbiage, and a feel for the numbers from the test results panel. However, for me, the best part of those comparision tests in either Car & Driver or Road & Track is the comparison panel that rates the cars in multiple categories. It doesn't matter a bit what the total scores are. Just look at the various categories that are important to you and see who wins. Don't care about trunk space? Fine. Throw it out. Don't care about ergonomics? Okeydoke. It's gone. Fun to drive is tops with you? Fine, it's right there.

There's real value in these kinds of rating schemes.

Bruce
This is why I said
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Just give me the numbers, and *I'll* declare the winner.
I did say that numbers are half the story - there is some useful information, but don't care overall. I can care less about what the editor likes in terms of feel, so having a winner is pointless to me. Verbiage? You can get a WRONG feel perhaps by verbiage, since feel/preference is subjective. For instance, I completely disagree in this review regarding the steering on the 911. I don't think he's lying, I just don't agree. That's his impression/feel.

Let's be honest. The tests are done because these guys have nothing to write about every month (that's "sexy" and sells, like "M3 vs. 911"), the winner thing sounds good all the time, and they need to sell magazines. A better comparison test would be M3 vs. RS4 (maybe the've done that - don't know). M3 vs. 911 is apples to oranges. Some like both, some hate apples, and some hate oranges. Yet both have nutritional value.
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      12-27-2008, 08:07 PM   #44
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Quote:
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I am not disagreeing just because it is you, no doubt Enigma will speak up soon and agree with me on this.

You feel a sports car is solely about performance and essentially about the figures they produce and thus people first and foremost pick a car based on these groups of figures. Only the very shallow ones.

Take some examples, an M3 which is probably the most practical sports coupe/saloon current on sale (if you excluded the GTR) and then look at the most basic Lotus Elise. One can pull 100mph in 9.5~10s and is capable (unlimited) of 190mph, while the other is capable 100mph in over 16s and can't quite reach 130mph. Based on the opinion that figures matter most to people then no one in their right mind would pick the Lotus never mind test drive it, but if they ever did make the decision and take that test drive, or better still drive it on a track they would understand completely that pure figures are not really that important as it's the experience that at times can make up for any real performance deficiency.



Bang for your buck is not a reason for picking one car over another, if that were true then all of those 335 vs M3 thread would have been correct. Is the Porsche worth all this extra cash? well that is up to the individual and is not something that can be justified on a pure monetary level.
Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I mention bang for the buck "IN A GIVEN CLASS"? This renders most of your point null. Most folks obviously decide the class, type, size, performance range, etc. FIRST and then narrow down to a group of cars to select from. Or those very concerned with performance might go by just by the numbers. Denying the massive importance of a cars numbers would negate the need for and interest shown in about half the threads on this forum. Numbers mean a lot and mean a lot to most, shallow or not.
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