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      11-27-2008, 08:04 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ajminn View Post
lets not forget people that f1 cars of the 80s had turbos and still had 10k+ redlines. it's still possible for bmw to produce beautiful engines even if we have to go the FI route.
The only problem with those engines was that they were built to last 1 or 2 races only, which allowed the rpms to be so high. With a production vehicle there is no way it can translate without BMW taking serious losses on warranty claims. You also have to remember that most OEM FI setup's lose thier efficiency at higher rpms, so there would be no point to have a higher reving engine.
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      11-27-2008, 08:17 PM   #68
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FI = more efficient
FI = more power and torque
FI = cheaper
FI = lighter

Why all the hate?
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      11-27-2008, 08:38 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW View Post
BMW has officially fucked up. Way to pull a Mercedes.

Fuck. This pisses me off so much. This proves to me that no one can do anything right anymore. Fuck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinan_sleiman2006 View Post
Increasingly tough emission standards and soaring manufacturing costs have pushed BMW into the decision, which could alter the intrinsic character of all BMW M models.

The moves comes on the back of confirmation from AMG that it is planning to add turbocharging to its 6.2-litre V8 when it introduces direct injection in 2010.
Emission standards are getting more strict, costs are rising, and Mercedes reportedly intends to turbocharge their new V8s. Can't really blame them for this move. Sometimes change is good. Time will tell.
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      11-27-2008, 08:42 PM   #70
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I don't really care if it's forced induction or not. As long as it's fast and fun to drive.
+1,000 and couldnt have said it any better.

we should spend less time worrying about turbos and what not and worry about how this car will perform. if it puts a smile on my face in the straights and twisties then BMW has done there job.
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      11-27-2008, 08:43 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW View Post
BMW has officially fucked up. Way to pull a Mercedes.

Fuck. This pisses me off so much. This proves to me that no one can do anything right anymore. Fuck.
They fucked up??? Umm... no.

I'm 110% in favor of a TT V8 in the next M5 over the V10
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      11-27-2008, 08:59 PM   #72
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+1,000 and couldnt have said it any better.

we should spend less time worrying about turbos and what not and worry about how this car will perform. if it puts a smile on my face in the straights and twisties then BMW has done there job.
+1
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      11-27-2008, 09:09 PM   #73
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The one thing that they'll never be able to recreate with a turbo car, which is soooo sad, is the sound of a NA engine. At the track you listen to the 911 Turbo and it sounds like an angry vacuum cleaner.

I love my 335, have had a great summer making it even better, but coming from superbike racing I love a high revving engine. All the torque is great, better for the street I think, but a turbo will never have that great sound.

But with thier objectives of more power, less emissions, better efficiencies, it's not a surprise they've gone FI.

A friend bought an E90 M3 and I do feel for him. Great car, absolutely all good, but he wasn't aware of 1. A model refresh in 09, 2. New idrive in 09, 3. M-turbo direction. Collectibility aside, it's a lot of buyers remorse for something that's only 5 months old.

So looks like I6 TT in the 335, V8 TT in the M3. Might be a stupid question, but have they strapped any snails on the V10 yet?
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      11-27-2008, 09:15 PM   #74
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Oh well. At least I have my NA M.
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      11-27-2008, 09:41 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinan_sleiman2006 View Post
Increasingly tough emission standards and soaring manufacturing costs have pushed BMW into the decision, which could alter the intrinsic character of all BMW M models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW View Post
BMW has officially fucked up. Way to pull a Mercedes.

Fuck. This pisses me off so much. This proves to me that no one can do anything right anymore. Fuck.
How has BMW fucked up? We and our representatives keep voting for ever tougher regulations - BMW is doing everything it can to provide the power you love while still being allowed to sell cars in this country.
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      11-27-2008, 09:46 PM   #76
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Sorry folks. I wasn't clear. I was solely talking about the fact that BMW is making ///M versions of their SUVs...like Mercedes. And the icing on the cake is that there is no CSL either. It's all I could think of when I was reading that article.
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      11-27-2008, 09:49 PM   #77
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      11-27-2008, 10:06 PM   #78
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I'd like to think that ///M cars are about handling first, but I will definitely miss the high RPM NA engines.
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      11-27-2008, 10:08 PM   #79
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Being the owner of a 135i, I can see why people like FI cars--it really is a fun car to drive. Faster, cheaper, easier to upgrade than an M3--not a bad deal.

That being said, I don't think that the M division is something that appeals to the masses anyway, so why change an old philosophy? You can go FI with other cars in your line, that's fine, but for the M division, I think staying NA is better.

For example, my dad has an '07 M Coupe--sure my car is faster than his in a straight line, but doesn't have 1/10 of the soul. It appears there will be no future M versions of the Z4, but you are going to have an M version of the X6? The X5? This makes no sense to me--you are going to have soccer moms driving MX6's and have no idea what M is supposed to mean.

To be honest, I think BMW took too big of a jump with the N54, and you can get M-like performance out of a 1 or 3 for a fraction of the cost of an M3. So they come out with a NA V8, which is a very nice engine, but is one that will still get burned by a 335 in a straight line on the street.

This appears to be another "we don't know where we are going" move from BMW. Sad to see.
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      11-27-2008, 10:32 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal jet black View Post
i like high revving NA engines... perhaps its time to go to the GT3 route after this.
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Hold on to em, they will become classics like the last of the air cooled 911's. The new ones will do everything better but these will be the last of the breed and the ultimate expression of the M3 NA engines.
I can't agree more......this will be my first and unfortunately last //M. Had plenty of friends who could afford an //M before I could, hence why this will be my first one. I love my 335i but there is a totally different feel from a torquey lower revving turbo'd engine and a high revving NA V8. I am expecting my company to continue to grow, if it does, GT3s and F430 will be my only choices, even if used. Turbo for an everyday chill car works, but not for a car I want to track and a car I bought to get my blood boiling.

F*ck BMW for ruining the last thing that defined them. Every bit of news that comes from them points to them falling further and further from who they are. High end porches and //Ms shouldn't be designed for the masses, charge more for them and reduce production. Don't turn them into something that appeals to the masses and increase production.

This is so DISAPPOINTING, makes me so sad...
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      11-27-2008, 10:38 PM   #81
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Would like to know what the new Ms performance Numbers will be with Turbos. All I can say is Torque Monster!!! 2010.
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      11-27-2008, 10:39 PM   #82
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The only "gotta have it" factor for me is the engine in this car (high revving V8). Enjoy these cars while you can

I'll reserve judgement on the new M's when I get to drive it. However I'm not feeling optimistic...
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      11-27-2008, 10:39 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laszlo View Post
Wow... all BMW has to do now is throw some turbos on an engine for "regular" BMWs and call it an M... Um, I think M is no longer M... and we've got the last and what a shame. I'll never buy another M and just hold on to the one I have for as long as I can.

Also, it would be one thing to make an engine from scratch for the M, and then put turbos on it. But to add turbos to any old engine in the line-up is pure - SELL OUT.
I never thought I would find myself saying this, but Laszlo, you have it the nail right on the head. Such a shame..........BMW has been completely taken over by the accountants and marketing department.

Cheers,
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      11-27-2008, 10:45 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW View Post
BMW has officially fucked up. Way to pull a Mercedes.

Fuck. This pisses me off so much. This proves to me that no one can do anything right anymore. Fuck.
MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY!!!!

Cheers,
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      11-27-2008, 11:19 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Being the owner of a 135i, I can see why people like FI cars--it really is a fun car to drive. Faster, cheaper, easier to upgrade than an M3--not a bad deal.

That being said, I don't think that the M division is something that appeals to the masses anyway, so why change an old philosophy? You can go FI with other cars in your line, that's fine, but for the M division, I think staying NA is better.

For example, my dad has an '07 M Coupe--sure my car is faster than his in a straight line, but doesn't have 1/10 of the soul. It appears there will be no future M versions of the Z4, but you are going to have an M version of the X6? The X5? This makes no sense to me--you are going to have soccer moms driving MX6's and have no idea what M is supposed to mean.

To be honest, I think BMW took too big of a jump with the N54, and you can get M-like performance out of a 1 or 3 for a fraction of the cost of an M3. So they come out with a NA V8, which is a very nice engine, but is one that will still get burned by a 335 in a straight line on the street.

This appears to be another "we don't know where we are going" move from BMW. Sad to see.


Not to start this shit again, but the M3 is faster in a straight line than the 135 and 335 (stock!), most likely the M coupe is actually faster also.

I do not think this will be the end of NA engines in M cars. Even if it was, I have faith that the M division engineers can still deliver the experience they want.
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      11-27-2008, 11:23 PM   #86
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Sad to see the NA engine go away for the M car. People buy cars for whatever reason but I really like to 100+hp per liter technology and it sets the car apart from an engineering perspective. Anyone can FI an engine. How many FI engines do you see in a Ferrari, Lambo or Aston Martin. Zero! Hopefully BMW will change their mind and stay with NA for M cars....
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      11-27-2008, 11:46 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Not to start this shit again, but the M3 is faster in a straight line than the 135 and 335 (stock!), most likely the M coupe is actually faster also.

I do not think this will be the end of NA engines in M cars. Even if it was, I have faith that the M division engineers can still deliver the experience they want.
Fair enough. I'm not stock. Then again, neither is he.
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      11-28-2008, 12:07 AM   #88
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what is happening to BMW


if NA engines are going out of style, then they should just introduce a new model instead of changing the M3

do what AMG did - people wanted track performance, so give it to them under a new name - Black Series. Don't change the original philosophy of the brand, otherwise it loses all it's value to the enthusiasts, and credibility to the fans.
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